Livingston - all the threads merged

[Guest]

How am I not amazed that you think Ged is a liar.

Coouncillor Miller who all of a sudden seems to be your mate & owns Livi Lions (from which you were barred from at one stage) why don't you get him to come over here & post the Truth & on Livi Lions with his own user name

My understanding of it all is you would not have been made welcome, thats the truth of the matter so whether you were asked or not, it would never have happened lock, stock & barrel. You can pretend otherwise on here, but that is just fantasy.

Wasn't he the chap who said Livingston were only going to spend 99p of every pound they earned? Think about it.

[Homer Thompson]

Partly agree, but SFL have to take some blame for that, surely you agree on that point at least?

How exactly? By not letting Livy off scott free with an other round of admin?

Comments like this are exactly why no-one would bat an eyelid if your club went under

I am pretty sure the discussion on here would be about Livi terminating players contract & putting on the scrapheap until January, if thats what was done? some posters on here want to put the boot in no matter what the situation is.

You can't have it both ways. I would expect to see the highest earners moved on in January alot of the other players are not on as high a wage as you may think.

But Livingston can, it seems. One of your highest wage earners is likely to be Winters. Has he only signed until January? Will he be "moved on" like the rest?

[Benjamin_Nevis]

As I said I will give the new mob some space - they deserve it on the basis that it takes time to sort things out. Haven't heard the staff not being paid (playing or non playing) or suppliers not being paid? As for the charity they were there on Saturday you just don't keep attending if you don't keep attending, if you think you won't get paid thats what various companies under Maassone did i.e. the stewards they left ,but hey they are back so I guess they must be getting paid.

Ask Andy180Y. The CVA shows them to be owed nearly £5000 apparently.

Partly agree, but SFL have to take some blame for that, surely you agree on that point at least?

I am pretty sure the discussion on here would be about Livi terminating players contract & putting on the scrapheap until January, if thats what was done? some posters on here want to put the boot in no matter what the situation is.

You can't have it both ways. I would expect to see the highest earners moved on in January alot of the other players are not on as high a wage as you may think.

You must surely be on the wind up.

It's been done to death on here, but you were deservedly punished, firstly for falling foul of the Insolvency rules, and secondly for failing to provide the fixture bond, which at the first meeting apparently wasn't a problem.

The whole thing was cooked up to happen so close to the start of the season that Livi5 thought they could bully the SFL into a minimal punishment. Hilariously it blew up in McGruther's/Livi5's faces, and they've been left with a Division One ( ) squad in Division Three until January.

Finally, even if your entire squad were on £100 a week, you'd still be running at a loss.

Seriously, if you believe Rankine is losing money out of the good of his heart for Livingston, you are a bit gullible.

[LIVIFOREVER]

While this wouldn't be in the least bit surprising, surely not even WLC could get away with selling Almondvale to Rankine at a knockdown price, then coughing up for a new ground.

Actually.........

Edin council sold prime land for buttons to Wimpey to build on, so anythings possible where councils are concerned, wouldn't dare suggest they might have received back handers for it though.

These rumours have been going for years, in fact Flynn and Massone were meant to be buying the stadium to make a profit selling it to a property developer, didn't happen though and the rumours still continue onto the new owners.

It would make sense to build a smaller stadium, the council would make quite a bit from the old one as it's smack bang in the middle of Livingston, walking distance from the centre. Personally i hope we stay where we are as i like the location for it's easy access to most Livi fans, as they can walk to it from anywhere in Livingston.

[LIVIFOREVER]

His claim that Livvy are not really doing anything other clubs arent doing and that they have "paid the price" suggests otherwise

How so, are you claiming other teams aren't in the red and grossly overspending on players to gain an advantage over other teams, this practice is the norm for quite a few teams and needs to be stopped.

I'm not trying to make any excuses for Livi's past financial dealings, just because Livi have done it doesn't just give non Livi fans the right to have an opinion on the matter, if anything the experience of supporting a team that's went into admin twice gives me as a football fan an added perspective, in that it has been hell for us fans too.

What i don't understand though is the likes of Dundee or Airdrie fans who have revelled in our plight, you'd have thought they of all people would know how Livi fans feel to be going through this because of the action of out of control chairmen.

I fully understand the likes of DF still posting on here and having concerns about the Livi5's conduct so far, they are not running the club as they said they would with expenditure meeting income, untill we go part time or by some miracle gain 3,000 fans, that will never happen. Some others though are only posting here for nothing more than the fun of it, as Livi are an easy target that they can post on, without much chance to be shown up as twats as who can argue against anything thrown at Livi without everyone else jumping on to kick the crap out of their post.

Edited September 16, 2009 by LIVIFOREVER

[Guest]

Yeh, seriously I was one of the first people to mention it on LL as for LLD he always see's the negitive side of things

As I said I will give the new mob some space - they deserve it on the basis that it takes time to sort things out. Haven't heard the staff not being paid (playing or non playing) or suppliers not being paid? As for the charity they were there on Saturday you just don't keep attending if you don't keep attending, if you think you won't get paid thats what various companies under Maassone did i.e. the stewards they left ,but hey they are back so I guess they must be getting paid.

The new mob should be given a little bit of space lets face it if they do cock up its the end of Livi FC. There is also more supporters closer to whats happening down at Alondvale & some of them I would trust to shout if its going the same way as Massone, but its nothing other than positive vibes I am hearing from them

Total and utter nonsense. They are a charity. Whether Livingston FC pay or not, St John's will always turn up. They are not judgemental, and will not legislate against non payers. That makes them an easy touch for the less than scrupulous. That is why they were amongst the first to go unpaid. Livingston were happy to take advantage of their charitable status.

You seem to have adopted the policy that "I don't hear of non payment, so everyone is being paid". It's from the "wood floats therefore everything that floats is made of wood" school of thinking, and it's why Livvy supporters in the broadest sense seem utterly incapable of grasping what is patently obvious to everyone else. Don't you think that maybe, just maybe the fact that expenditure simply has to be outstripping income by a pretty big margin, that the money to pay for it has to be coming from somewhere? Do you think that doesn't involve the club generating debt? Do you really think it is an altruistic act from MacDougall or Rankine? If you don't believe its them, then where is it coming from? That's a simple question.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Guest

[Homer Thompson]

How so, are you claiming other teams aren't in the red and grossly overspending on players to gain an advantage over other teams, this practice is the norm for quite a few teams and needs to be stopped.

I'm not trying to make any excuses for Livi's past financial dealings, just because Livi have done it doesn't just give non Livi fans the right to have an opinion on the matter, if anything the experience of supporting a team that's went into admin twice gives me as a football fan an added perspective, in that it has been hell for us fans too.

What i don't understand though is the likes of Dundee or Airdrie fans who have revelled in our plight, you'd have thought they of all people would know how Livi fans feel to be going through this because of the action of out of control chairmen.

I fully understand the likes of DF still posting on here and having concerns about the Livi5's conduct so far, they are not running the club as they said they would with expenditure meeting income, untill we go part time or by some miracle gain 3,000 fans, that will never happen. Some others though are only posting here for nothing more than the fun of it, as Livi are an easy target that they can post on, without much chance to be shown up as twats as who can argue against anything thrown at Livi without everyone else jumping on to kick the crap out of their post.

Its a free market, clubs can spend what they like as long as [here come the science bit] they can afford to pay it back It doesnt really matter whether the club pays its bills through income alone, or whether they really on outside funding, like the Chelseas, Man Citys or Notts Countys of this worl, but the key is there has to be something behind it to back up the spend. In the case of Man Utd or Liverpool part of the guarantee is their fan base and, therefore, potential revenue. Livingston have never had any of this. Until such times as a governing body makes everyone work to the same set transfer and wage budgets, irrespective of revenue, then the big clubs will continue to spend more than the rest. Its not wrong, its called a free market. The extent of it may be becoming a concern, especially in the current economic climate, but it isnt wrong for any business to have debt - as has already been quite eloquently explained to you.

If you're not trying to make excuses for Livy then what are you doing? All this talk of the debt of other clubs is totally irrelevant unless you're trying to tie it back to to Livys situation. Its a nice try at diversion, but failing badly.

And Im sorry, but non livy fans have just as much right to an opinion as anyone else. We've all been affected by Livys cheating over the years and can all see that, from the outside, whats still going on doesnt seem sustainable. Do you think fans of other clubs want to go through this whole farce again in a few years time when another admin comes rolling around? Most of the posts on here have been picking up on arguments with flawed logic, like yours, and trying to get the livy fans to question whats going on, rather than trying to justify it with the same hackneyed lines that were doing the rounds when Massone took over, or with meaningless comparisons to the rest of football.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

How so, are you claiming other teams aren't in the red and grossly overspending on players to gain an advantage over other teams, this practice is the norm for quite a few teams and needs to be stopped.

I'm not trying to make any excuses for Livi's past financial dealings, just because Livi have done it doesn't just give non Livi fans the right to have an opinion on the matter, if anything the experience of supporting a team that's went into admin twice gives me as a football fan an added perspective, in that it has been hell for us fans too.

What i don't understand though is the likes of Dundee or Airdrie fans who have revelled in our plight, you'd have thought they of all people would know how Livi fans feel to be going through this because of the action of out of control chairmen.

I fully understand the likes of DF still posting on here and having concerns about the Livi5's conduct so far, they are not running the club as they said they would with expenditure meeting income, untill we go part time or by some miracle gain 3,000 fans, that will never happen. Some others though are only posting here for nothing more than the fun of it, as Livi are an easy target that they can post on, without much chance to be shown up as twats as who can argue against anything thrown at Livi without everyone else jumping on to kick the crap out of their post.

I think the point Mr X was making, was that debt is a perfectly acceptable business tool if it's being serviced.

Re-read his points re the the likes of Liverpool etc.

Also, while i can appreciate the fans other other clubs ripping into Livi must be a bit annoying, you should try to remember the disdain with which Livi looked upon other clubs on their rise up the leagues into the SPL. Some of Dominic Keane's quotes in particular were arrogance of the highest order. There's a phrase along the lines of "Be nice to people on the way up, cos you'll sure as hell meet them on the way down again".

Also, i can't speak for Airdrie fans, but having attended the relegation decider at Almondvale in 2005 and having Livi fans gleefully sing "Dundee till July" and wave tenners at us, there is some mild amusement in the current situation. Also i believe you were at the same thing when Morton were in bother with Hugh Scott, and most probably when Steve Archibald was ruining Airdrie, so to come over all sensitive about piss-taking when it comes back in your direction is a wee bit pathetic.

Also i think it's fair to say that the majority on this thread don't want to see Livi go to the wall, we just wanted to see you get a fitting punishment, and get on with it. As oppose to getting a fitting punishment and causing as much trouble and disruption to the league campaign as possible.

[LIVIFOREVER]

I can only presume you are in second or third year at High School, and haven't really gone into the world of economics on even the most basic of levels.

"Servicing debt" is what it is all about. Understand why clubs go into debt..........there are two key types. Opex..........operating expenditure (players wages, day to day running costs). Capex........capital expenditure (buying land or asets, improving facilities. It tends to be clear what is owed, and it is reduced over time. Opex on the other hand, (and for some baffling reason) is seen to reflect "ambition". Livvy have for their entire history, indulged in amassing debt based on opex. It is an endless upward spiral. Knowing that you have no assets, means that there are none of the commercial pressures to repay or honour that debt. It makes it hugely appealing for organisations/companies to then not pay the debt............this is Livingston FC (supported by the local council).

Now, you say Livvy cannot run up debts with the banks. So they do it in other ways. They generate opex debt, and don't pay it. They seek and gain services, then don't pay the invoices.......be it rent, catering, electricity, wages, fellow clubs..............Livvy have always sought to avoid paying their debts. Having no assets means they can run to company law and the administration process to ensure that they can live outwith their means with no tangible penalty..........until the demotion..........and then you ain't happy.

You say again that Livvy "paid the price". How can you quantify "paid the price"? After 14 years of existance, you have effectively ripped off a million pounds each and every year from other businesses and service providers. If the club hadn't done it, you'd have been bumbling along with gates of 500 to 700, and playing in SFL2 and SFL3. You'd have been there for the last 14 years. Now you're back there after 14 years of appalling business ethics having won the CIS cup, and finished third in the SPL......something my club will never do. Think about it..........if your beloved club had behaved with honesty and integrity, you'd have had 14 years at the bottom level. It's hard to see where Livingston have ever come close to "paying the price".

The bit that is starting to wind everyone up, is that it has started all over again. Full time in SFL3 with not a hope in hell of balancing the books..........and this is after all the gum bumping on LL about wanting a club that is run properly and "living within its means". That didn't last too long did it?

You presume wrong, i've ran my own business and never failed to pay anyone.

You miss what i'm saying about football clubs, being in the red to 3 quarters of the what they are worth is pretty dangerous, just because they're allowed to do this still doesn't make it right, don't forget banks screwed up and caused this credit crunch so allowing Liverpool and the like to exist like this is no indication that it's the right way to do business. I'm sure i read something dodgy about Liverpool and the bank, were they not a few hundred million more in the red but some dodgy deal was done, same with Real Madrid a few years back.

However nobody is concerned about anyone other than Livi on this thread, lets get back to kicking the stuffing out of us.

Oh BTW, for the record, i've never said anything about Livvy, as far as i know they run their club well.

[Guest]

Edin council sold prime land for buttons to Wimpey to build on, so anythings possible where councils are concerned, wouldn't dare suggest they might have received back handers for it though.

These rumours have been going for years, in fact Flynn and Massone were meant to be buying the stadium to make a profit selling it to a property developer, didn't happen though and the rumours still continue onto the new owners.

It would make sense to build a smaller stadium, the council would make quite a bit from the old one as it's smack bang in the middle of Livingston, walking distance from the centre. Personally i hope we stay where we are as i like the location for it's easy access to most Livi fans, as they can walk to it from anywhere in Livingston.

That is very true. The thing is, if the council do it, then it is the general public who will benefit. If it is sold to a speculator at a knock down price, then the money goes to them and their "associates". Not for one minute do I believe that your consortium are there primarily for the benefit of LFC. Just wait and see.

As I said earlier, the state of public spending draws into question the motives behind the council's involvement in all of this (and if not the council, then certainly some council members).

That expenditure is nowhere near matching income (and the club is still hiring), then it tells you that already, the number one big promise of the new regime was just more Almondvale bluff.

[jimbo]

I made a point of asking about the charity and was told that they have been paid.

[Homer Thompson]

Liverpools debt, for example, is around £350m. The club is valued at around £605m and has an income of around £130m. Thats like me earning £50k, with a mortgage of £150k and a house worth £300k. Do you think any bank has a problem with that sort of borrowing?

You presume wrong, i've ran my own business and never failed to pay anyone.

You miss what i'm saying about football clubs, being in the red to 3 quarters of the what they are worth is pretty dangerous, just because they're allowed to do this still doesn't make it right, don't forget banks screwed up and caused this credit crunch so allowing Liverpool and the like to exist like this is no indication that it's the right way to do business. I'm sure i read something dodgy about Liverpool and the bank, were they not a few hundred million more in the red but some dodgy deal was done, same with Real Madrid a few years back.

However nobody is concerned about anyone other than Livi on this thread, lets get back to kicking the stuffing out of us.

Oh BTW, for the record, i've never said anything about Livvy, as far as i know they run their club well.

Geez, I even posted the figures for you, and a handy little comparison to help you along. In addition to the above figures, the Liverpool owners have put up personal guarantees for around £180m of the debt, making the actual liability even smaller.

As I said, though, none of this is relevant. Big business often operate with large levels of debt. But when I say large I mean large to you and I, not large in comparison to their turnover and assets. Small business, however, operate on a much smaller level of debt, but still comparable to their income and assets - this is where Livingston came unstuck, and why what they did is so totally different to how the clubs you claim to be so wrong are operating, and why Livy were most definitely in the wrong.

There was an example much earlier on the thread about supermarkets and corner shops. If Tesco wanted to borrow a few hundred million pounds the banks would be falling over themselves to lend it to them. Technically, Tescos would then be in debt - would that be a problem to them? Would it be wrong? Would it give them an advantage over other retailers? Finally, what do you think the chances are of a small corner shop being able to borrow a couple of million?

[LIVIFOREVER]

I think the point Mr X was making, was that debt is a perfectly acceptable business tool if it's being serviced.

Re-read his points re the the likes of Liverpool etc.

Also, while i can appreciate the fans other other clubs ripping into Livi must be a bit annoying, you should try to remember the disdain with which Livi looked upon other clubs on their rise up the leagues into the SPL. Some of Dominic Keane's quotes in particular were arrogance of the highest order. There's a phrase along the lines of "Be nice to people on the way up, cos you'll sure as hell meet them on the way down again".

Also, i can't speak for Airdrie fans, but having attended the relegation decider at Almondvale in 2005 and having Livi fans gleefully sing "Dundee till July" and wave tenners at us, there is some mild amusement in the current situation. Also i believe you were at the same thing when Morton were in bother with Hugh Scott, and most probably when Steve Archibald was ruining Airdrie, so to come over all sensitive about piss-taking when it comes back in your direction is a wee bit pathetic.

Also i think it's fair to say that the majority on this thread don't want to see Livi go to the wall, we just wanted to see you get a fitting punishment, and get on with it. As oppose to getting a fitting punishment and causing as much trouble and disruption to the league campaign as possible.

I'm not talking about business outside the football world, i know you have to borrow to run a business, i never did so myself but had accounts with places that allowed me time to get paid for work i'd done and then could pay said merchants.

With football clubs going bust every season, bringing in this rule would prevent that from happening. If you or anyone else doesn't agree then fine, but at least try to give your reasons instead of bringing Livi into it, as it is about a rule that may help out other clubs from following our path and stop the bigger clubs operating in a way to gain an unfair advantage over others.

It would also level up the playing field a bit, which can't be a bad thing.

On what you saw Livi fans doing, i was at that game and didn't see that, also was at Easter road when we beat Dundee in the semi final and were in admin the day before, Dundee fans were coming past my bus giving the thumbs up and applauding, wishing us luck, so not all fans should be judged by actions of the ones who are twats, we all have our share of decent fans and a few idiots. On chants/songs, Albion were giving it to us tight on our finances but it was actually amusing as it was typical footballing banter that is as much a part of game as what happens on the park.

Really, i would like to see a poll done on that one.

[LIVIFOREVER]

Geez, I even posted the figures for you, and a handy little comparison to help you along. In addition to the above figures, the Liverpool owners have put up personal guarantees for around £180m of the debt, making the actual liability even smaller.

As I said, though, none of this is relevant. Big business often operate with large levels of debt. But when I say large I mean large to you and I, not large in comparison to their turnover and assets. Small business, however, operate on a much smaller level of debt, but still comparable to their income and assets - this is where Livingston came unstuck, and why what they did is so totally different to how the clubs you claim to be so wrong are operating, and why Livy were most definitely in the wrong.

There was an example much earlier on the thread about supermarkets and corner shops. If Tesco wanted to borrow a few hundred million pounds the banks would be falling over themselves to lend it to them. Technically, Tescos would then be in debt - would that be a problem to them? Would it be wrong? Would it give them an advantage over other retailers? Finally, what do you think the chances are of a small corner shop being able to borrow a couple of million?

I'm not arguing with you about whether clubs can do it or not, i'm saying they shouldn't be allowed to run the risk of it all going wrong, just because they have rich sugar daddies backing them, banks thought they were invincible too.

[The Old Northerner]

With football clubs going bust every season, bringing in this rule would prevent that from happening. If you or anyone else doesn't agree then fine, but at least try to give your reasons instead of bringing Livi into it, as it is about a rule that may help out other clubs from following our path and stop the bigger clubs operating in a way to gain an unfair advantage over others.

It's a sign of the times, this. For some reason, the responsibility for the well-being of the clubs should now be shifted to the over-arching organisation - laying down a 'correct' set of rules - rather than remaining with the clubs themselves.

[Homer Thompson]

I'm not arguing with you about whether clubs can do it or not, i'm saying they shouldn't be allowed to run the risk of it all going wrong, just because they have rich sugar daddies backing them, banks thought they were invincible too.

Maybe, but thats a whole other argument.

As I said, Im not really sure what relevance you think it has to Livy.

Are you saying that a club that has already gone into admin twice needs rules in place to stop it happening a third time?

[Dink]

Borrowing is pretty much essential in any business where large investments in infrastructure have to be made. In football this might be to build a new stand, install an artificial pitch, building a training ground, or investing in community facilities. If you do not allow clubs to run up debt then clubs will almost never be in a position to make those investments.

Debt is not a bad thing of itself, unsustainable debt that can not be paid back is a bad thing. Which is why clubs must be allowed to go into debt but equally the punishment for going into administration must be very harsh, to discourage clubs from spending money that they do not have and will not be able to pay back.

[LIVIFOREVER]

That is very true. The thing is, if the council do it, then it is the general public who will benefit. If it is sold to a speculator at a knock down price, then the money goes to them and their "associates". Not for one minute do I believe that your consortium are there primarily for the benefit of LFC. Just wait and see.

As I said earlier, the state of public spending draws into question the motives behind the council's involvement in all of this (and if not the council, then certainly some council members).

That expenditure is nowhere near matching income (and the club is still hiring), then it tells you that already, the number one big promise of the new regime was just more Almondvale bluff.

I do hope that the council don't do this, it would be inexcusable. All i want to do is enjoy going down to a game of football in the place i reside, but if this happened i'd find it difficult to still support them, what has happened since 2004 has truly been painful to Livi fans and as fans of football i'd hope you can empathise with that. I try to seperate what owners have done from the actual team, as i'm only an ordinary guy that loves going to the footie. I by no means condone any of our past owners actions, though i have to admit i thoroughly enjoyed Livi's glory days, politics aside i think any fan would've enjoyed the same if it were their team.

[AND180Y]

I made a point of asking about the charity and was told that they have been paid.

Don't let folks use you to tell lies for them!!

[LIVIFOREVER]

Borrowing is pretty much essential in any business where large investments in infrastructure have to be made. In football this might be to build a new stand, install an artificial pitch, building a training ground, or investing in community facilities. If you do not allow clubs to run up debt then clubs will almost never be in a position to make those investments.

Debt is not a bad thing of itself, unsustainable debt that can not be paid back is a bad thing. Which is why clubs must be allowed to go into debt but equally the punishment for going into administration must be very harsh, to discourage clubs from spending money that they do not have and will not be able to pay back.

The rule was on not spending more than a certain pecent of what the club made on players/wages though.