ayrmad Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Leverage makes the world go round,it's just to much that fcuks it up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 You say again that Livvy "paid the price". How can you quantify "paid the price"? After 14 years of existance, you have effectively ripped off a million pounds each and every year from other businesses and service providers. If the club hadn't done it, you'd have been bumbling along with gates of 500 to 700, and playing in SFL2 and SFL3. You'd have been there for the last 14 years. Now you're back there after 14 years of appalling business ethics having won the CIS cup, and finished third in the SPL......something my club will never do. Think about it..........if your beloved club had behaved with honesty and integrity, you'd have had 14 years at the bottom level. It's hard to see where Livingston have ever come close to "paying the price". This is the crux of the matter. My own club Berwick can, in it's entire 50-odd year existence in the Scottish League, count 2 bottom divisions and a humping off Morton in the Anglo-Scottish Cup as the pinnacle of our achievements. We aren't overly upset about this taken in isolation. What is so very distasteful it that Livingston FC have been in existence for 14 years, but have played in the SPL; won the League Cup; and played in Europe (winning a tie)... based on running up debts they never intended, and were never capable of, repaying... That is what is ugly. That is what grinds... The bit that is starting to wind everyone up, is that it has started all over again. Full time in SFL3 with not a hope in hell of balancing the books..........and this is after all the gum bumping on LL about wanting a club that is run properly and "living within its means". That didn't last too long did it? But it appears that their fans have become conditioned to it!! Provided the slate has been wiped clean, all is fine and dandy. That is what is so galling. Few Livi fans seem to regard their conduct as wrong. They regard the agents of the conduct (Keane, Flynn, Massone) as bad guys... but not the actual offences over which they presided. Livingston has done well out of their own carnage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I thought the subject had to be dead before the vultures feasted on the carcass? I must say this in defence of Liviforever, he is not one of the 'blind faithfull'. Like myself he has fully realised that the way our club has been run is entirely to blame for the situation we now find ourselves in, he is just as angered that again it's the creditors (again, Yes I know!) who are paying the price for this. So please do not tar us all with the same brush! Some of us have admitted our sins! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I must say this in defence of Liviforever, he is not one of the 'blind faithfull'.Like myself he has fully realised that the way our club has been run is entirely to blame for the situation we now find ourselves in, he is just as angered that again it's the creditors (again, Yes I know!) who are paying the price for this. So please do not tar us all with the same brush! Some of us have admitted our sins! Some rise by sin, and others by virtues fall. By that sin fell the angels... (William Shakespeare) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 A cursory read of Livilions shows you to be in a *tiny* minority though, unless all the non-internet reading Livi fans are fully signed up to the Freemason regime change doctrine. Not contributing much here now as its the same old points going round and round- though it is interesting to see how the "new" regime are starting their lives as all the others did- drawing a line under bad debt, shrugging their shoulders as people are ripped off, (that's all Massone's fault, natch) and starting on the same road all over again. After the PR whitewash that accompanied Massone's ejection, with the snivelling connivance of the local council, that really is breathtaking. How a club can stay full time on third division gates is beyond me, unless MacDougall and Rankine are personally signing cheques to cover the wages and running costs. In Gretna's all conquering third division "heyday" the rumour was that Mileson wrote out a cheque for £25k every month to cover the club's massive running costs-largely first team wages- and we all know where that one ended. The stance of HMRC is crucial, though. Given that they are vigorously pursuing Accrington I'd be hoping, were I a fan of this shoddy mob, that the statement put out at the time of the takeover, that the taxman had been satisfied, is true. If it's not, then I'm afraid HMRC hold all the aces, and Livingston simply won't exist this time next year. To be fair, they're very lucky to still exist at all today. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I thought the subject had to be dead before the vultures feasted on the carcass? I must say this in defence of Liviforever, he is not one of the 'blind faithfull'. Like myself he has fully realised that the way our club has been run is entirely to blame for the situation we now find ourselves in, he is just as angered that again it's the creditors (again, Yes I know!) who are paying the price for this. So please do not tar us all with the same brush! Some of us have admitted our sins! His claim that Livvy are not really doing anything other clubs arent doing and that they have "paid the price" suggests otherwise 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 His claim that Livvy are not really doing anything other clubs arent doing and that they have "paid the price" suggests otherwise I'm just making it clear that he is not in denial of where the blame lies. Could you pin the livitv highlights thread now that our fate is sealed & we remain in the third division? Sorry I can't be arsed going to the suggestions board with this! This bloody thread takes up too much of my time as it is! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Now that's IS pish & bile Through your tinted glasses maybe, but not in the eyes of many, many Livi fans (& for the record these fans don't all sit on the boards you like to take the piss out of) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Planet Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) How a club can stay full time on third division gates is beyond me, unless MacDougall and Rankine are personally signing cheques to cover the wages and running costs. In Gretna's all conquering third division "heyday" the rumour was that Mileson wrote out a cheque for £25k every month to cover the club's massive running costs-largely first team wages- and we all know where that one ended. I may be wrong but I think Livingston differ from Gretna in the fact that they are not paying SPL wages in the 3rd division. David Bingham earned more at Gretna in the 3rd than at Livi in the SPL (fact...well maybe fact...well it was a widespread rumour at the time) If Livi could get rid of all the higher earners they have I am pretty sure they would...as they found out with Dorado, you can't just cut peoples wages when you get relegated. Point on the tax man still stands and I hope the club have been honest with the fans over a repayment schedule. Edited September 15, 2009 by Captain Planet 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCL Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Like myself he has fully realised that the way our club has been run is entirely to blame for the situation we now find ourselves in, he is just as angered that again it's the creditors (again, Yes I know!) who are paying the price for this. So please do not tar us all with the same brush! Some of us have admitted our sins! What's your take on the new appointment of an assistant manager Scott Paterson ? Official Site How can any third division team on crowds of 700 justify another guy on the wage bill whilst creditors are about to get 5p in the £ ? Brian Welsh should be able to do the job as well as the Youth Developement role. They are hardly full time positions as the team train two hours a day for 4 days. Senior players could help out with training as it would help them get their coaching badges. They managed to entice him from Aberdeen too so his wages can't be bad. It makes the "living within our means" statement seem rather hollow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I may be wrong but I think Livingston differ from Gretna in the fact that they are not paying SPL wages in the 3rd division. David Bingham earned more at Gretna in the 3rd than at Livi in the SPL (fact...well maybe fact...well it was a widespread rumour at the time)If Livi could get rid of all the higher earners they have I am pretty sure they would...as they found out with Dorado, you can't just cut peoples wages when you get relegated. Point on the tax man still stands and I hope the club have been honest with the fans over a repayment schedule. You're right about Bingham, he was meant to be on ridiculous money in the 3rd division (not far off £100k per year, I heard, though as you say its rumour). Sure Livingston may not be paying Gretna's level of wages but the point stands that, even if wages are *really* tight for full timers- say averaging £250 per week over a squad of 20 or so...that's £20 grand a month. And, as was pointed out earlier by another poster (I think it was DF), even in a month where there are two home games, raising about ten grand revenue between them, that's Livingston ten grand down straight away- every month. The appointment of a (doubtless full time) assistant and head of youth mentioned above is absolutely ludicrous. They should be careful though- having been allowed to continue in the league after walking away from a financial mess of their own making for the second time, I'll be amazed if they get a third chance, when the "Livi 5"s fantasy terminates in inevitable administration and fresh peaks of mountainous debt. If "Livi" find themselves in this position again, especially after all the politicking and mudslinging of the last month, they will be taken out and neckshotted forthwith by the SFL. Poor Livi, though. it's all everyone else's fault. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) Would Livi have been unable to function without this Paterson? If not why not spend his wages on creditors? Edited September 15, 2009 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I'll be honest & say this baffles me too, there does seem to be more staff than fans these days! Somehow I can't see them all being family members working for the good of the club! I shall now await the wrath of my fellow fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 What's your take on the new appointment of an assistant manager Scott Paterson ? Official SiteHow can any third division team on crowds of 700 justify another guy on the wage bill whilst creditors are about to get 5p in the £ ? Brian Welsh should be able to do the job as well as the Youth Developement role. They are hardly full time positions as the team train two hours a day for 4 days. Senior players could help out with training as it would help them get their coaching badges. They managed to entice him from Aberdeen too so his wages can't be bad. It makes the "living within our means" statement seem rather hollow. You might be right or you may be wrong, but ones things for sure when there is shit to be stirred your not that far away 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCL Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 You might be right or you may be wrong, but ones things for sure when there is shit to be stirred your not that far away That is bile for the sake of bile just because you are one of the many, many Livi fans in your wee group that don't like me In my opinion it's a fairly reasonable question from a Livi fan of how, after being through two administrations, we can justify the spend when we don't have that much money coming in. It was stressed at every possible opportunity that the new improved owners would only be spending 99p for every £1 taken in. Since taking over we have had two home games with a total of around 1400 people. 600 of those (300 x 2 games) were season ticket holders who had paid the money to Massone so that was long gone. Creditors are going to get a very small fraction of what they are due so how can this appointment be justified. Would Livi be unable to function without him ? Is Bollan unable to organise a training session with twenty odd players without an assistant ? Reasonable questions, not shit stirring 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 That is bile for the sake of bile just because you are one of the many, many Livi fans in your wee group that don't like me In my opinion it's a fairly reasonable question from a Livi fan of how, after being through two administrations, we can justify the spend when we don't have that much money coming in. It was stressed at every possible opportunity that the new improved owners would only be spending 99p for every £1 taken in. Since taking over we have had two home games with a total of around 1400 people. 600 of those (300 x 2 games) were season ticket holders who had paid the money to Massone so that was long gone. Creditors are going to get a very small fraction of what they are due so how can this appointment be justified. Would Livi be unable to function without him ? Is Bollan unable to organise a training session with twenty odd players without an assistant ? Reasonable questions, not shit stirring Like with Mad Massone am will to give the new team a chance and some space to sort things out and make the right decisions for Livi FC. They have made promises & I would expect them to keep them, but for now I will give them space to manage Livi FC they need & not stick the boot in at every opportunity If your so concerned, why not ask your mate Coouncillor Miller he must have close dealings with the Livi CEO, if he calls you on his behalf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCL Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 If your so concerned, why not ask your mate Coouncillor Miller he must have close dealings with the Livi CEO, if he calls you on his behalf Have you asked Andy about it yet ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djn Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 They have made promises & I would expect them to keep them, ...like paying St Andrews Ambulance? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Like with Mad Massone am will to give the new team a chance and some space to sort things out and make the right decisions for Livi FC. They have made promises & I would expect them to keep them, but for now I will give them space to manage Livi FC they need & not stick the boot in at every opportunity You do realise that the same "head in the sand" attitude allowed Massone to completely f**k things up to the extent that half the posters on LL were still backing him towards the end of last season don't you? Didn't Massone make promises as well? Seriously, if you lot don't ask some pretty searching questions of the dodgy-dealings that have gone on since WLC forced you into Admin, then frankly, you fully deserve the almost inevitable oblivion which will follow. Never mind though, not a total loss. I'm sure Rankine et all will make a tidy sum when the panic-stricken Council sell them Almondvale for peanuts... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Like with Mad Massone am will to give the new team a chance and some space to sort things out and make the right decisions for Livi FC. lol, hope it works out for you in a similar manner as the last. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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