Livingston - all the threads merged

[phantoms-livi-lass]

That's one word for it

Wilson will feel right at home at Livi

Oh thanks!

[AND180Y]

That's one word for it

Wilson will feel right at home at Livi

A marriage made in heaven?

[Livi]

I was called by Andy Miller, who said he was calling on behalf of Ged Nixon. He said the club needed a hand with the website and if I was interested to call him back.

O' the irony

[Livi]

I've never met the guy. I don't look on all supporter's trusts the same way. I just have personal experience of the Livi version and the lies and spin they come out with. See above posts by PLL and Livi for examples.

Another is the claim of photos of Massone in my car. They didn't quite think that one through though as they didn't expect to be asked to post the proof

Nah, you have had personal vendettas against people you used to sit on the same supporter's club committee's with - that is clear for all to see.

Anyone on here only needs to scratch the surface to find out all these people are still there making sure 100's & 100's of fans taken to games week in week out, season in season out, but you fell out with these people & just publicly want to pretend they are all the bad guys & you're the good guy.

One of the people on the Trust board lives within your vicinity & you have a hate vandetta against them too. You can't seem to deal with it privately, but you feel the need to have a go at every public opportunity.

Councillor Miller was also on the said board until the last elections earlier this year too. I am pretty sure I have seen posts from him on Livi Lions urging fans to back the Trust.

I'll ask Ged at the next home game if he asked Councillor Andrew Miller to call you specifically on his behalf and I'll post his reply. Knowing Councillor Miller I am assuming he was just doing his bit for the club & asking about for assistance as I know the club where looking for this in regards to the official website.

I remember when you were part of running the official website LiviLions stopped posting a link because you had taken the LiviLions link off the official site. Not to mention the Gay Porn that was posted on the official site -but that's another story entirely.

We can keep going round in circles & I am sure we will when you come back with your next retort.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Livi

[djn]

I remember when you were part of running the official website LiviLions stopped posting a link because you had taken the LiviLions link off the official site. Not to mention the Gay Porn that was posted on the official site -but that's another story entirely

Whit?

We've had twelve thousand posts about Livi and no mention of gay porn on the official site?

[MCL]

O' the irony

?? I don't see the irony in that ??

[MCL]

Nah, you have had personal vendettas against people you used to sit on the same supporter's club committee's with - that is clear for all to see.

Anyone on here only needs to scratch the surface to find out all these people are still there making sure 100's & 100's of fans taken to games week in week out, season in season out, but you fell out with these people & just publicly want to pretend they are all the bad guys & you're the good guy.

One of the people on the Trust board lives within your vicinity & you have a hate vandetta against them too. You can't seem to deal with it privately, but you feel the need to have a go at every public opportunity.

Councillor Miller was also on the said board until the last elections earlier this year too. I am pretty sure I have seen posts from him on Livi Lions urging fans to back the Trust.

I'll ask Ged at the next home game if he asked Councillor Andrew Miller to call you specifically on his behalf and I'll post his reply. Knowing Councillor Miller I am assuming he was just doing his bit for the club & asking about for assistance as I know the club where looking for this in regards to the official website.

I remember when you were part of running the official website LiviLions stopped posting a link because you had taken the LiviLions link off the official site. Not to mention the Gay Porn that was posted on the official site -but that's another story entirely.

We can keep going round in circles & I am sure we will when you come back with your next retort.

Now that's IS pish & bile :lol:

[MCL]

Where have I lied????

"People in glass houses MCL? You have been proved to be an outright liar- no-one phoned you to beg you to work for the club at all!"

Where have I been proved to be an outright liar ?

Even "Livi" admits now that it's possible Andy Miller called me to ask me to help out - "Knowing Councillor Miller I am assuming he was just doing his bit for the club & asking about for assistance as I know the club where looking for this in regards to the official website."

Happy to help

[LIVIFOREVER]

Are you for real?

If you are then you show the same inability to understand basic finance as everyone who has ever run LFC.

The amount spent has fcuck all to do with the situation, it is your inability to pay it back!!

eg. You take on a mortgage to buy a house, now in the month you buy the house you have grossly overspent in comparison to your bank balance, but it doesn't matter because the mortgage repayments are structured to your income. It is only when you don't pay on those dates that problems begin. Livingston have failed to pay their debts as they fall due and their creditors were not willing to renegotiate payment hence the need for you lot to dodge the debt again.

If you think just because banks allow clubs to run up hundreds of millions it is ok then it is you that needs to be questioned if you're for real. I understand finance fine, Livi can't run up debt as they have no assets, therefor can't service their debt as the banks wont allow them to, but that still doesn't make it right for other clubs to do the exact same thing, i still stand by my opinion of what G Smith said to be a good idea, as there are quite a few clubs sailing close to the wind financially.

Also it is an unfair advantage to spend millions, or even hundreds of millions you don't have to be stronger than other teams that can't get away with doing so, Livi have done this and paid the price (yes i do realise you and others don't think they have and only our extinction would be of satisfaction) but the likes of Rangers, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd do this season after season, hell even the likes of Dunfermline have been millions in debt for years but escape criticism because they've managed to service it. So to reiterate, it would even up the playing field for said rules to be brought in and may even save some teams from administration.

[Borys]

Ahoj!

Something from the EPL:

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/...p;TEAMHD=soccer

All 20 Premier League members also agreed to adhere to a set of financial reporting rules designed to protect the viability and sustainability of the clubs.

"They will all have to annually submit accounts and future financial information," said Scudamore.

"At all times the board of the Premier League will be applying a test which basically says this: can the club fulfil its fixtures, pay off its creditors when they are due and also to meet obligations to the Premier League's contracts and partners?

"If the board believe a club is at risk of not meeting those obligations, it has to then step in and agree a budget for the running of that club. Any transfers can be embargoed.

"It's absolutely crucial that these clubs are run as ongoing viable concerns. These financial rules apply immediately.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Borys

[FFCinthearea]

Here's another belter from LivvyLions

I can not understand why the cost of entry is not a whole note value?????

At £12, typically £15 will be offered and then change will have to be given!!! Coins that can be thrown on the pitch aka Aberdeen support..

[Casey]

Here's another belter from LivvyLions

He has a point.

Programmes, pies, bovrils, crisps, teas etc. should also be rounded up to a fiver each.

It would also make the 50/50 more of a win.

[djn]

If you think just because banks allow clubs to run up hundreds of millions it is ok then it is you that needs to be questioned if you're for real. I understand finance fine, Livi can't run up debt as they have no assets, therefor can't service their debt as the banks wont allow them to, but that still doesn't make it right for other clubs to do the exact same thing, i still stand by my opinion of what G Smith said to be a good idea, as there are quite a few clubs sailing close to the wind financially.

Also it is an unfair advantage to spend millions, or even hundreds of millions you don't have to be stronger than other teams that can't get away with doing so, Livi have done this and paid the price (yes i do realise you and others don't think they have and only our extinction would be of satisfaction) but the likes of Rangers, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd do this season after season, hell even the likes of Dunfermline have been millions in debt for years but escape criticism because they've managed to service it. So to reiterate, it would even up the playing field for said rules to be brought in and may even save some teams from administration.

People shouldn't be allowed to borrow money, even if they have the means to repay it over the long term? Just because Livi were criticised for borrowing money (against no assets) nobody with assets should be allowed to borrow?

Pretty much every business in the world, including fitba clubs, has a bit of debt . The difference is, most could afford to pay it off over the long term.

Economics lessons from Livingston fans

[AND180Y]

If you think just because banks allow clubs to run up hundreds of millions it is ok then it is you that needs to be questioned if you're for real. I understand finance fine, Livi can't run up debt as they have no assets, therefor can't service their debt as the banks wont allow them to, but that still doesn't make it right for other clubs to do the exact same thing, i still stand by my opinion of what G Smith said to be a good idea, as there are quite a few clubs sailing close to the wind financially.

Also it is an unfair advantage to spend millions, or even hundreds of millions you don't have to be stronger than other teams that can't get away with doing so, Livi have done this and paid the price (yes i do realise you and others don't think they have and only our extinction would be of satisfaction) but the likes of Rangers, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd do this season after season, hell even the likes of Dunfermline have been millions in debt for years but escape criticism because they've managed to service it. So to reiterate, it would even up the playing field for said rules to be brought in and may even save some teams from administration.

Gordon Smith?

Try Adam Smith instead?

[Benjamin_Nevis]

If you think just because banks allow clubs to run up hundreds of millions it is ok then it is you that needs to be questioned if you're for real. I understand finance fine, Livi can't run up debt as they have no assets, therefor can't service their debt as the banks wont allow them to, but that still doesn't make it right for other clubs to do the exact same thing, i still stand by my opinion of what G Smith said to be a good idea, as there are quite a few clubs sailing close to the wind financially.

Also it is an unfair advantage to spend millions, or even hundreds of millions you don't have to be stronger than other teams that can't get away with doing so, Livi have done this and paid the price (yes i do realise you and others don't think they have and only our extinction would be of satisfaction) but the likes of Rangers, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd do this season after season, hell even the likes of Dunfermline have been millions in debt for years but escape criticism because they've managed to service it. So to reiterate, it would even up the playing field for said rules to be brought in and may even save some teams from administration.

You sure?

[Dink]

If you think just because banks allow clubs to run up hundreds of millions it is ok then it is you that needs to be questioned if you're for real. I understand finance fine, Livi can't run up debt as they have no assets, therefor can't service their debt as the banks wont allow them to, but that still doesn't make it right for other clubs to do the exact same thing, i still stand by my opinion of what G Smith said to be a good idea, as there are quite a few clubs sailing close to the wind financially.

Also it is an unfair advantage to spend millions, or even hundreds of millions you don't have to be stronger than other teams that can't get away with doing so, Livi have done this and paid the price (yes i do realise you and others don't think they have and only our extinction would be of satisfaction) but the likes of Rangers, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd do this season after season, hell even the likes of Dunfermline have been millions in debt for years but escape criticism because they've managed to service it. So to reiterate, it would even up the playing field for said rules to be brought in and may even save some teams from administration.

I've managed just to lurk on this thread until now but this has finally been enough to get me to post. You can not simply put in a rule where clubs are not allowed debt, well managed and planned debt is a powerful and important tool in any business.

Using my own club, Alloa, as an example we took on debt in order to put down the new artificial surface. Although we went into debt we also significantly increased our income, reduced our outgoings and, hopefully, we will have increased our support in the long term. We were set to have got out of debt by the end of this season.

Instead we have taken on more debt in order to purchase and refurbish the disused sports centre next door to our ground. Again we have gone into debt but we are also in a position where our income will increase significantly as will the club's profile in the community and the number of people in the community who are benefitting from and using the club's facilities. Again this is planned and it has a plan to service and pay off the debt that the bank are happy with.

Blanket rules that clubs are not allowed to go into debt would harm our game and the well run clubs within the league. As long as debt is taken on as part of a business plan with means of paying the debt off then it is not a problem. It is only when debt is taken on thoughtlessly and clubs can not service it that it becomes a problem.

[Homer Thompson]

If you think just because banks allow clubs to run up hundreds of millions it is ok then it is you that needs to be questioned if you're for real. I understand finance fine, Livi can't run up debt as they have no assets, therefor can't service their debt as the banks wont allow them to, but that still doesn't make it right for other clubs to do the exact same thing, i still stand by my opinion of what G Smith said to be a good idea, as there are quite a few clubs sailing close to the wind financially.

Also it is an unfair advantage to spend millions, or even hundreds of millions you don't have to be stronger than other teams that can't get away with doing so, Livi have done this and paid the price (yes i do realise you and others don't think they have and only our extinction would be of satisfaction) but the likes of Rangers, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd do this season after season, hell even the likes of Dunfermline have been millions in debt for years but escape criticism because they've managed to service it. So to reiterate, it would even up the playing field for said rules to be brought in and may even save some teams from administration.

You clearly dont understand finance in any way whatsoever. As others have pointed out, the difference between other clubs and Livy is income and, therefore, ability to pay back debt. The big EPL clubs have huge turnovers (that means they make a lot of money) so they can afford to service (that means pay back) their debt. Liverpool and Man Utd are in slightly different positions because their new owners borrowed lots of money to buy the club, technically, putting the clubs - or probably more accurately their holding companies - into debt. They use all of their revenue (that means money they earn) to pay off the loan repayments, pay wages and even, on the odd occasion, settle up any bills with suppliers and charities, whos services they use. Stop me if Im losing you at any point.

Liverpools debt, for example, is around £350m. The club is valued at around £605m and has an income of around £130m. Thats like me earning £50k, with a mortgage of £150k and a house worth £300k. Do you think any bank has a problem with that sort of borrowing?

As Dink said, borrowing is a vital part of any economy and an important tool in any business operation. One of the major contributors to the "credit crunch" was that banks stopped lending money to businesses. But then you'd know that, seeing as you know all about finance

[Aberdeen Cowden]

You clearly dont understand finance in any way whatsoever. As others have pointed out, the difference between other clubs and Livy is income and, therefore, ability to pay back debt. The big EPL clubs have huge turnovers (that means they make a lot of money) so they can afford to service (that means pay back) their debt. Liverpool and Man Utd are in slightly different positions because their new owners borrowed lots of money to buy the club, technically, putting the clubs - or probably more accurately their holding companies - into debt. They use all of their revenue (that means money they earn) to pay off the loan repayments, pay wages and even, on the odd occasion, settle up any bills with suppliers and charities, whos services they use. Stop me if Im losing you at any point.

Liverpools debt, for example, is around £350m. The club is valued at around £605m and has an income of around £130m. Thats like me earning £50k, with a mortgage of £150k and a house worth £300k. Do you think any bank has a problem with that sort of borrowing?

As Dink said, borrowing is a vital part of any economy and an important tool in any business operation. One of the major contributors to the "credit crunch" was that banks stopped lending money to businesses. But then you'd know that, seeing as you know all about finance

Good post but I think this will have fallen on deaf ears!

They (Livi) really think they have been hard done by instead of "getting out of jail"

[Homer Thompson]

Good post but I think this will have fallen on deaf ears!

They (Livi) really think they have been hard done by instead of "getting out of jail"

I think the support of Livvy are deaf, dumb and blind!

If the club goes under maybe the could turn Almondvale over to pinball

[Guest]

If you think just because banks allow clubs to run up hundreds of millions it is ok then it is you that needs to be questioned if you're for real. I understand finance fine, Livi can't run up debt as they have no assets, therefor can't service their debt as the banks wont allow them to, but that still doesn't make it right for other clubs to do the exact same thing, i still stand by my opinion of what G Smith said to be a good idea, as there are quite a few clubs sailing close to the wind financially.

Also it is an unfair advantage to spend millions, or even hundreds of millions you don't have to be stronger than other teams that can't get away with doing so, Livi have done this and paid the price (yes i do realise you and others don't think they have and only our extinction would be of satisfaction) but the likes of Rangers, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd do this season after season, hell even the likes of Dunfermline have been millions in debt for years but escape criticism because they've managed to service it. So to reiterate, it would even up the playing field for said rules to be brought in and may even save some teams from administration.

I can only presume you are in second or third year at High School, and haven't really gone into the world of economics on even the most basic of levels.

"Servicing debt" is what it is all about. Understand why clubs go into debt..........there are two key types. Opex..........operating expenditure (players wages, day to day running costs). Capex........capital expenditure (buying land or asets, improving facilities. It tends to be clear what is owed, and it is reduced over time. Opex on the other hand, (and for some baffling reason) is seen to reflect "ambition". Livvy have for their entire history, indulged in amassing debt based on opex. It is an endless upward spiral. Knowing that you have no assets, means that there are none of the commercial pressures to repay or honour that debt. It makes it hugely appealing for organisations/companies to then not pay the debt............this is Livingston FC (supported by the local council).

Now, you say Livvy cannot run up debts with the banks. So they do it in other ways. They generate opex debt, and don't pay it. They seek and gain services, then don't pay the invoices.......be it rent, catering, electricity, wages, fellow clubs..............Livvy have always sought to avoid paying their debts. Having no assets means they can run to company law and the administration process to ensure that they can live outwith their means with no tangible penalty..........until the demotion..........and then you ain't happy.

You say again that Livvy "paid the price". How can you quantify "paid the price"? After 14 years of existance, you have effectively ripped off a million pounds each and every year from other businesses and service providers. If the club hadn't done it, you'd have been bumbling along with gates of 500 to 700, and playing in SFL2 and SFL3. You'd have been there for the last 14 years. Now you're back there after 14 years of appalling business ethics having won the CIS cup, and finished third in the SPL......something my club will never do. Think about it..........if your beloved club had behaved with honesty and integrity, you'd have had 14 years at the bottom level. It's hard to see where Livingston have ever come close to "paying the price".

The bit that is starting to wind everyone up, is that it has started all over again. Full time in SFL3 with not a hope in hell of balancing the books..........and this is after all the gum bumping on LL about wanting a club that is run properly and "living within its means". That didn't last too long did it?