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Livingston - all the threads merged


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:lol: how long have you got... well broadly, I'd like to see [1] a pyramid system; [2] a revolution in the organisation of youth football; [3] reformation of reserve leagues; [4] complete change in the ridiculous system of player registrations; [5] end seperate Junior/Amateur/Welfare FAs; [6] direct relegation or some play-offs involving 11th in the SPL; [7] clubs aiming to live within their means.

In terms of financial issues... SFA should be responsible for monitoring the finances of all clubs in Senior football (SPL, SFL, SHFL, EOSFL, SOSFL, NCFL) because they are neutral, and since they have the resources to do it. Through Club Licensing, clubs which are running up unmanageable debts should be subject to sanctions. Clubs that enter liquidation, administration or insolvency should be subject to sanction from their league (as currently). As regards the SFL, they should re-write their rules on this matter to make it explicity clear what the punishment is (relegation, points deduction, etc.) and not leave it up to committee's opinions. That's a fairly reasonable plan IMO.

Your earlier posts along with this one appear to suggest that it is only some posters using SFL instead of SFA when posting suggestions,why argue then, someone needs to take heed of financial mismanagement,it doesn't matter who so long as someone is doing it.

7. Clubs aiming to live within their means-laudable but means nothing,a % of turnover is required not an aim as an aim depends on chairmen being fiscally prudent taking no account of headbangers,dreamers etc.

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Guest morton1874
I didn't realise Gretna's was for administration. Point noted.

From Wiki........

In the spring of 2008 it was revealed by the administrator, Wilson Field of Sheffield, that Gretna had creditors of nearly £4m and assets (Raydale Park) of less than £1m. HM Revenue and Customs was owed nearly £600,000 in total, and it was their threat to wind up the company that precipitated Gretna's move into administration. On 8 May, the administrator set a deadline of 17 May for a buyer to be found, or the club would be liquidated.[23][24]

After that deadline passed without a buyer making a firm offer, all the remaining employees were made redundant, but it was reported that the club were still negotiating with an interested buyer.[25] On 29 May, Gretna were relegated to the Third Division due to their financial struggles, with the Scottish Football League threatening expulsion should a takeover not be completed within a week. After a takeover bid fell through on 1 June,[26] the administrators confirmed the following day that they would look to sell Raydale Park to someone who will use the site for something other than football.[3]

Gretna resigned from the Scottish Football League on 3 June.[27] Near neighbours Annan Athletic. won the vote to replace Gretna in the Scottish league.[28] With no ground, staff, players or a competition to play in, the club's dissolution was inevitable and the club was formally liquidated by the administrators on 8 August.[29]

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IHGH did, right there, in bold, in the quote I addressed in the first place that you followed up. :huh:

If his argument is reduced to absurdities that is in fact because it was absurd, not because I reduced it so.

When I said anyone, I meant anyone.

How many times did Livi players go unpaid on pay day?

Shouldn't the SFL have ben inviting them in for a chat to see what the score was regarding wages? I forgot, there's only 5 of them and they don't read newspapers or watch TV.

Last week on here we saw a few "Rules Change" threads. Now Livi are relegated, not a murmur.

My suggestions may sound ludicrious, but prevention is better than cure.

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General Livi fan just wanting to say that I, along with a few other fans are of the opinion that while the decision is unfortunately fair given the handling of the Gretna situation (the SFL for once being consistent!) it's the handling of it that's been a shambles and is infuriating us.

The moment we went into administration or made the initial lay-off of non playing staff at the club (the start of the liquidation process as I understand it) the SFL should have been on the phone saying "lads, it's Division 3 for you" - there is no reason why this wasn't done at that point.

That way we'd have known the score and the other teams who're now going to be messed about - Cowdenbeath etc - wouldn't be wondering when there season starts and having to worry about a week or two of lost revenue if Livi appeal (which will no doubt "endear" us to yet more fans / clubs!)

However (and not defending the SFL but trying to see it from both sides) there is always the possibility that the Livi consortium turned up yesterday and contested the bond, or the value of it, and the SFL went "stuff you then, division 3 for you." That's the only way that I can see the SFL can rationally have made this decision but if it is the case then why haven't they made that clear?

It's all a mess. It's like Club Earth on a Sunday morning.

It would have been helpful to everyone if we'd had a decision last week. But unfortunately it wasn't Longmuir's place to make that decision, it had to be down to the Management Committee who didn't have chance to discuss it until yesterday.

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And for the 3rd time. IHGH suggested exactly that, I took issue with it, and that's where you came in. I've quoted it twice!

Audited accounts or not? If yes then that has an associated, and completely unnecessary in corporate law terms, cost. Who should pay that? Either way it's money coming out of the game unnecessarily.

If no, they aren't worth the paper they are written on.

okay- fair enough- I don't agree that a football Stasi should be set up whereby a club is thrown out the league for defaulting on a hire purchase agreement for a sit-on lawnmower.

I take on board what you have said about cost. I think annual audited accounts is the way to go. yes, expensive, but the chaos surrounding Livingston and their very late relegation is going to be costly in other ways, too. And, unless something is done about it, with the economy in its present state, this kind of thing is going to keep happening.

When I grew up watching the game Third Lanark were the last team to go bust and back then people thought it would never happen again to another club. That's four clubs gone down the toilet since 2002 for different reasons. perhaops its time to introduce a set of regulations so we all know what exactly is going to happen when the next "Livi" comes along- and also a system whereby clubs can be helped when they are in financial difficulty.

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I have now moved this to the appropriate forum, but left a seed link behind on the first division board as this subject clearly spans both divisions.

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Your earlier posts along with this one appear to suggest that it is only some posters using SFL instead of SFA when posting suggestions

I'm quite clear on my use of SFA and SFL... The SFA should be doing the general, routine and detailed supervision. The leagues should be imposing sanctions when a law court takes action.

why argue then, someone needs to take heed of financial mismanagement,it doesn't matter who so long as someone is doing it.

A simplistic viewpoint. Of course it matters who is doing it. SFA and SFL work in different areas.

7. Clubs aiming to live within their means-laudable but means nothing,a % of turnover is required not an aim as an aim depends on chairmen being fiscally prudent taking no account of headbangers,dreamers etc.

What I was meaning was: clubs have to take a degree of responsibility themselves. They aren't children. It's not solely up to the governing bodies to give them a smack when they misbehave - clubs need to act with a bit of maturity, and if they don't, accept the consequences for it IMO.

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its time to introduce a set of regulations so we all know what exactly is going to happen when the next "Livi" comes along- and also a system whereby clubs can be helped when they are in financial difficulty.

I agree with you IDB new rules and regulations are the way forward. However, by introducing these, if we turn over the stone now, we have to be prepared for shock that's underneath. If the jungle drums are right, then there are at least three clubs, that would need a helping hand.

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When I said anyone, I meant anyone.

How many times did Livi players go unpaid on pay day?

You'd probably be frightened to know how many clubs have struggled to pay players during the past few years. The SFL have effectively no power to do anything, until court action happens.

Shouldn't the SFL have ben inviting them in for a chat to see what the score was regarding wages? I forgot, there's only 5 of them and they don't read newspapers or watch TV.

Firstly, as has been said the SFL has (literally) a handful of staff, most of whom are secretarial lasses. Decent hard-working lasses (did you see the stuff in the newspapers about the referee's officer, lately of the SFA but originally of the SFL, who retired after 48 years service...?)... but totally unqualified to judge on financial matters. Is David Longmuir even particularly hot on that?

I'm also interested as to what kind of 'chat' you think Massone would have had when invited in?

As for suggesting that the governing bodies start taken action based on newspapers and TV...!!

Last week on here we saw a few "Rules Change" threads. Now Livi are relegated, not a murmur.

My suggestions may sound ludicrious, but prevention is better than cure.

Of course there should be rule changes - the SFL should, like the SPL, set down what the set of punishments is for entering administration etc. The SFA should beef up it's inspections. Etc. etc.

its time to introduce a set of regulations so we all know what exactly is going to happen when the next "Livi" comes along- and also a system whereby clubs can be helped when they are in financial difficulty.

Again, I agree that the SFL should look to alter its rules, and set out quite clearly all the sanctions.

Regarding helping clubs in financial difficulty... this is a pandora's box. Ultimately, if you want to establish a fund to help clubs in hardship, you're taking away money from all 30 clubs to create it. If such a fund existed, and Livingston FC had come along and said "look guys we need £300k or we'll fold", fans of Brechin/Arbroath/Morton/Annan etc. would be up in arms. And quite rightly.

Edited by HibeeJibee
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I'm quite clear on my use of SFA and SFL... The SFA should be doing the general, routine and detailed supervision. The leagues should be imposing sanctions when a law court takes action.

A simplistic viewpoint. Of course it matters who is doing it. SFA and SFL work in different areas.

What I was meaning was: clubs have to take a degree of responsibility themselves. They aren't children. It's not solely up to the governing bodies to give them a smack when they misbehave - clubs need to act with a bit of maturity, and if they don't, accept the consequences for it IMO.

Perhaps a small country should not be run by 3 seperate bodies who by all accounts can't work together for the greater good of our game.

The problem with accepting the consequences is that I as a fan of club have absolutely no say in wether my club is run by a mature/immature person,as with other clubs the supporters will be there long after the baton holder is gone,the rules should be introduced to protect the clubs of the supporters not to allow anyone with a few bob to do as they like.

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It would have been helpful to everyone if we'd had a decision last week. But unfortunately it wasn't Longmuir's place to make that decision, it had to be down to the Management Committee who didn't have chance to discuss it until yesterday.

I see. So basically this whole holocaust was unavoidable given the timings.

It's clear that we are now surely going to be the undisputed owners of the "most hated clubs" title in Scotland (OF aside of course).

I heard that we're now so badly thought of that Gary Glitter and George Bush refused to renew their season tickets. However Michael Jackson was still going to get his (in the family section)

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