Livingston - all the threads merged

[Skyline Drifter]

Wouldn't it be worth looking at the option of the SFL taking action against a club if they are approached by anyone owed money by that club after a payback date had expired?

It'd certainly nip all this pish in the bud.

The SFL (which incidentally has about five staff who just might be busy doing other things and not experts in book-keeping) would be spending every waking hour looking at the detailed financial arrangements of every club in the league in that case.

That's a ludicrous notion.

[Ivo den Bieman]

The SFL (which incidentally has about five staff who just might be busy doing other things and not experts in book-keeping) would be spending every waking hour looking at the detailed financial arrangements of every club in the league in that case.

That's a ludicrous notion.

Is it such a ludicrous notion that they might employ some staff competent to look at these books when they are submitted?

[qos_75]

You surely don't think they left it THIS late just to call the League's bluff, do you?

No I don't, I was highlighting that unless the SFL had prior knowledge that this was going to happen three weeks before the start of the season, what else could they have done? Yes it would have been nice and tidy to have known after the last game of last season, sadly these things do not follow nice, neat timescales, you have to act when it happens. It was you that accused the SFL of dragging their feet. I don't think they had the time some people think they had.

[Stadio Delle Almondvale]

Surely the prospect of 3rd Division football with this very achievable progression path, is much more palatable than the death of the club, which was looking very likely last Wednesday morning?

I'm fair looking forward to it. I just hope that Messrs Rankine, McDougal and Nixon are as well.

[Tryfield]

The SFL (which incidentally has about five staff who just might be busy doing other things and not experts in book-keeping) would be spending every waking hour looking at the detailed financial arrangements of every club in the league in that case.

That's a ludicrous notion.

Time for change then.

What other organisation would carry out disruptive disciplinary action three days before a league campaign?

If you are painting a rosy picture of the SFL, please add IMO alongside your quotes.

They are idiots, IMO.

[Rasta Ton]

Why does West Lothian deserve a football team bacause it has 170K residents? Most of these residents have made their decisions a long time ago to support the old firm, Hearts, Hibs, Linthithgow Rose or whoever.

As had been said, football supporting is a pretty irrational thing and Scottish football will not be saved by West Lothian having a community football club.

How about another team from Edinburgh though? Or maybe the people of East Kilbride deserve an alternative to the old firm.

Pish - you think that West Lothian deserves it because you live there and have a vested interest. Others might argue for a second Aberdeen team, a third Edinburgh team, a team from the Borders to fight against the influence of rugby, a team from East Kilbride, a team from Orkney & Shetlands etc etc. etc.

A big population does not mean you should be at the front of any queue or some sort of pish about you saving Scottish football. Some might say, West Lothian have had their chance and blown it.

Anyhoo, I thought you were tooddle pipping off to the third division forum?

They had a third team - it was called Meadowbank Thistle.

[Livi 293]

No it dosen't. Gretna were the precedent last season.

It sets it in stone, then. Any team in administration - 3rd Division. (not a complaint - just an observation)

I can see why you got your hopes up last week, but to be honest it was always on the cards something like this would happen, so I don't know how you can say the SFL were spineless. If anything they stood up to the bullying of the potential new owners.

Heroes and backstabbing? I don't think they were or did any of these things.

Caving in to our potential owners, attempt to look like the good guys who save the club, and then caving into the harrying of the other member clubs to impose a harsh penalty at an incredibly late stage. They should have had the bottle to say to our new owners last week that we could not continue in Division 1. A well-though, reasoned, firm decision. Instead, everyone's been all over the place. The figures of speech exaggerate. But the comments Longmuir made last week about Division 1 status (however unfair on other clubs) have turned out to be complete hypocrisy.

I'm not sure it has anything to do with what you can or cannot afford. I think it has a lot to do with showing that punishment will be hard on any club going into administration for a second time.

But not as a member of the SFL. Surely you cannot punish a club for breaking rules it was not party to? That's why I though Division 2 would be as severe as it would go.

I hope not either. As harsh as the punishment may seem, I do believe it was just. If you cast your mind back to a week ago it was looking like Livi were dead. That being the case I'm sure many would have settled for 3rd Division football if given the option then. In fact many on here said they would bite your hand off for that option. I think the false hope that people thought Livi would survive was due to the timing of the start of the season and the bluster comming from the prospective owners. That really was pie in the sky stuff and hence why a lot of Livi supporters are feeling gutted right now.

Correct. It would have been fairer on all had the SFL had the bottle to make the decision first time.

That said, I think if these new guys take over and as SDA highlighted earlier, Livi can grow and prosper into the club you and indeed I think they can be, and hope they will be.

Surely the prospect of 3rd Division football with this very achievable progression path, is much more palatable than the death of the club, which was looking very likely last Wednesday morning?

Agree entirely. I would like to make clear. I don't dispute the punishment, but am appalled at it's handling.

[Skyline Drifter]

Is it such a ludicrous notion that they might employ some staff competent to look at these books when they are submitted?

I'd say so yes.

The SFL is not here as a financial watchdog, it's not in their remit and they aren't qualified to do it. If anything that's an SFA issue and indeed it is something the SFA look at as part of licensing.

What they do not do however is jump in jackbooted every time someone puts their hand in the air and says "Please sir, Montrose haven't paid me yet for some stationery they bought last month" or "Livingston owe me a week's a wages" or "Queen of the South have charged me twice for my season ticket", etc. That's the part of IHGH's suggestion that is utterly ludicrous and remains so no matter how often he repeats it.

[qos_75]

Time for change then.

What other organisation would carry out disruptive disciplinary action three days before a league campaign?

So if Livi had gone tits up in June, you would have no problem with relegation? Howver if they go into administration 3 weeks before the league starts it should just be a points deduction?

Perhaps clubs faced with going down the administration route in future would try their best to hold off until three weeks before the season started, rather than doing it earlier and being relegated.

[Ivo den Bieman]

I'd say so yes.

The SFL is not here as a financial watchdog, it's not in their remit and they aren't qualified to do it. If anything that's an SFA issue and indeed it is something the SFA look at as part of licensing.

What they do not do however is jump in jackbooted every time someone puts their hand in the air and says "Please sir, Montrose haven't paid me yet for some stationery they bought last month" or "Livingston owe me a week's a wages" or "Queen of the South have charged me twice for my season ticket", etc. That's the part of IHGH's suggestion that is utterly ludicrous and remains so no matter how often he repeats it.

again- who is suggesting that such a system, if initiated under the auspices of *either* the SFA or SFL, would work like that?

In your desperation to paint the SFL in the best possible light you are reducing other people's arguments to absurdities. Anyone can do reductio ad absurdum- it's dead easy- but it doesn't really get your argument any further forward.

[HibeeJibee]

However, to be refused permission to address the SFL meeting must have been a kick in the teeth and who could blame him for calling it a day.

It would have been totally outrageous for a 'potential investor' holding no position at the club to have addressed a meeting convened to punish the said club for breach of rules... Massone was IIRC Livi's nominated representative to the SFL - and he was denied entry to the meeting last week - so to suggest that someone holding no position whatsoever should be allowed in is tosh.

At a stretch, a statement from the administrator could have been considered by the committee.

I can't see the benefit of a team with the potential of Livingston being replaced by the likes of Cove Rangers. Can you?

Livingston are no giants. If Livingston fold them a non-league club - whoever that may be - must be given an opportunity to replace them, not some Livingston Thistle outfit or such like. Livi have spent the past 14 years p*ssing money up the wall... plenty non-league clubs have been waiting just as long for a shot at SFL football, and have been running themselves impecabbly all that time.

If Livingston FC fold, I suspect your best bet will be a Livingston 2009 over in non-league football.

Edited August 6, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[ayrmad]

I'd say so yes.

The SFL is not here as a financial watchdog, it's not in their remit and they aren't qualified to do it. If anything that's an SFA issue and indeed it is something the SFA look at as part of licensing.

What they do not do however is jump in jackbooted every time someone puts their hand in the air and says "Please sir, Montrose haven't paid me yet for some stationery they bought last month" or "Livingston owe me a week's a wages" or "Queen of the South have charged me twice for my season ticket", etc. That's the part of IHGH's suggestion that is utterly ludicrous and remains so no matter how often he repeats it.

You appear to be answering in self-preservation tones.

If a debt is outstanding long enough to reach court then that clubs finances should be scrutinised by footballing authorities.

If a player receives their wages late more than once then that would suggest a cash-flow problem that should be investigated and help given to help the club rectify the situation b4 it becomes a problem.

[Sergeant Wilson]

So, he's a "fucking liar" then, yes? Until about 5pm yesterday the opponents were Livingston, he'd have heard nothing to tell them any different, especially after the outcome of the meeting the previous week.

It seems to me that he's far more worried about loss of hospitality revenue, anyway, and that's likely to be a far more significant sum for the club.

The programmes are most likely County v Livingston programmes, then with the decision made most likely had to rush order a small inlet of Airdrie info to be inserted and all the programmes sticker covered with a sticker over Livi stating Airdrie....now we are told that there is likely no game at all and these go to waste.

Also the loss of the hospitality is more of a blow, added to the fact that we lose the gate receipts and everything else makes it a big kick in the nut sack for most clubs.

The "fucking liar" part was to indicate my frustration with all Chairman and The SFL. He probably, make that definitely, isn't the worst. But had no need to over do it with programmes to embellish his consternation. Even though he is new, he is now part of the problem in Scottish football. Do you know if he was involved in any of the discussion/vote re Livi. If he helped bump them he can't really complain now.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Don't be taking your rage out on us. I don't think anyone wanted to see your club killed, punished yes, but killed no.

Anyways everything happens for a reason, you might end up with other investors from the community who really have the interests of the club at heart.

Bet you the leader of the counil feels a right cnut?

It's okay I will just take my rage out on you, you can be my whipping boy.

[HibeeJibee]

If anyone thinks we are mighty, they are delusional. Scottish football is fast approaching a crossroads and it needs stability and strong teams from populous areas that can support the growth of community football. A team in West Lothian has a better chance of being able to contribute towards this.

Aberdeen as a city doesn't need a second team in senior football. It needs to be concentrating on presenting Aberdeen FC as the only choice for senior football rather than waving goodbye every Saturday morning to the green or blue buses heading south.

Cove have their place within football and it is mostly dictated to them by their geography. West Lothian has far more to offer with a population of 170000. Do we just roll over and say go and support the old firm? If we want sustainable football out with the SPL we have to provide a quality alternative to the Old Firm etc.

Utter tripe. If Livingston FC folds, then a club which has spent years or decades aspiring to an SFL place - and has run its finances impeccably in this time - should get the place. Not some Livingston FC with a new name and the reset button pressed, and no debt (again). No pyramid in Scotland means that only by unsustainable clubs dying can other clubs get in. If Livingston FC fold then it's time someone else has a chance. West Lothian has no divine right to an SFL place, none at all.

Edited August 6, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[Mackie The Staggie]

The "fucking liar" part was to indicate my frustration with all Chairman and The SFL. He probably, make that definitely, isn't the worst. But had no need to over do it with programmes to embellish his consternation. Even though he is new, he is now part of the problem in Scottish football. Do you know if he was involved in any of the discussion/vote re Livi. If he helped bump them he can't really complain now.

Why, the prorgrammes that were printed are now, more likely going to waste at a cost to County and is a viable complaint, more likely is wasn't his only complaint but was the easy one for the press to pick up on.

As for being one of the guys voting, I don't think he was in that meeting, I'm sure the memeber which were at the meeting was posted earlier on and it only contained about half of the first division.

Link to post - not definate, but some suggestion of who was there post no 7710

Edited August 6, 2009 by Mackie The Staggie

[Skyline Drifter]

Wouldn't it be worth looking at the option of the SFL taking action against a club if they are approached by anyone owed money by that club after a payback date had expired?

It'd certainly nip all this pish in the bud.

Let's see rule changes now, to suit ALL clubs, creditors and fans.

The dragging of heals has made us the laughing stock. Three days til kick off, FFS.

again- who is suggesting that such a system, if initiated under the auspices of *either* the SFA or SFL, would work like that?

In your desperation to paint the SFL in the best possible light you are reducing other people's arguments to absurdities. Anyone can do reductio ad absurdum- it's dead easy- but it doesn't really get your argument any further forward.

IHGH did, right there, in bold, in the quote I addressed in the first place that you followed up.

If his argument is reduced to absurdities that is in fact because it was absurd, not because I reduced it so.

[HibeeJibee]

Anyway, the SFL are meeting (again) this afternoon to discuss Saturday's fixtures.

Ross County have threatened to sue for compensation if Saturday's fixtures are called off.

Livingston have said nothing yet but I don't think MacDougall in particular will walk away quietly.

Ross County set to demand compensation

There is absolutely no reason for the SFL to postpone any games. The only people it helps are Livingston. The games should go ahead as planned, and in the (unbelievably unlikely) event that Livingston actually win an appeal, the results can be annulled and replacements games played...

If Livi don't turn up (like Estonia), then the SFL can re-convene and expel them entirely. Or take 15 points off them, as happened to Hamilton. But no-one should be dancing to Livingston's tune.

[ayrmad]

IHGH did, right there, in bold, in the quote I addressed in the first place that you followed up.

If his argument is reduced to absurdities that is in fact because it was absurd, not because I reduced it so.

Why don't you post your suggestions including those that might impinge on your own team,my earlier suggestions would affect my club on at least 2 counts but I still think such rules need introduced b4 we start losing even more clubs.

What happens when we start losing teams with cup and title winning history?

Edited August 6, 2009 by ayrmad

[Skyline Drifter]

Why don't you post your suggestions including those that might impinge on your own team,my earlier suggestions would affect my club on at least 2 counts but I still think such rules need introduced b4 we start losing even more clubs.

Why would I?

I'm not on here claiming to know better than the SFL what they should have been doing (well not particularly anyway, I've said already I thought they didn't act decisively enough at the first meeting a week ago but like everyone else on here I obviously don't know what was actually said in private discussion).

I addressed the point (initially) that the SFL somehow should have been able to act on this as long ago as last October and certainly at the end of the season, not last week. I happen to disagree with that suggestion. I don't see the SFL as competent to replace the laws of the land in terms of governance of companies.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Skyline Drifter