Jump to content

Livingston - all the threads merged


Recommended Posts

I think it was late payment and if we are going to jump on this on each occasion it happens, teams would be being relegated every month!

I didn't say clubs should be relegated for late payment of wages (although why not?) but players have to be registered to play for a specific club in the SFL and as the terms of these contracts were clearly not being met IMO that should have been enough for the SFL to intervene.

I'm not trying to say that non-footballing debts are less important and therefore to be ignored just that I think the SFL could have intervened at Livi on the grounds of late payment to players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have already posted my views on whether we deserve punishment etc. Troll back if you must.

The die have been cast and here we now are, on the absolute brink of extinction. I will say this again and will take huge issue with anyone who thinks this is an unjustified viewpoint,

The Scottish Football League (please not the word league) would be a poorer prospect without a senior football team from West Lothian as one of its members. The potential to have a non SPL team diluting the support of the Glasgow and Edinburgh teams is very important for the future of the Scottish game. Unless of course we are all happy to watch the slow demise of the Scottish game, we must support football at a local level.

But as I say here we are. I will take this on the chin and I am now fervently praying that the consortium will now take a 3-5 year hit on their plans. Given our hardcore support and the potential support from West Lothian within the next few decades when we have a bit more history and tradition, this club deserves to be a Division 1 club.

We will have no right to expect instant promotion, look at last Saturday's result for proof of that. But I am not going to accept sitting in Division 3 for a few years. I will be 100% behind the club as we fight to return to Division 1. I want us to be the best supported club in Division 3 home and away. I want our youth system to be producing players that can help us move back up. I want us to be a sustainable club that we can all be proud of. I want other division 3 clubs to look forward to us bringing a large support to their grounds and for them to miss us when we move on up.

But most of all I just want us to take this last chance and wipe away the shambles of the past. If we are out of business, it serves no-one any good. Not us, not the SFL or the member teams, not the creditors nor the businesses of West Lothian and beyond who can in the future profit from asuccessful football team.

We deserved to be punished but please don't let it be the end. That's a victory for no-one.

I guess I won't be posting in this forum as soon as the thread is moved to Division 3 so I bid you all farewell. That said, I'll pop back now and then. How could I survive without the wisdom of VikingTon?

GIRFUY cheats.

nelson-muntz.gif

Ha Ha!

Genius. Truly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Knowing a few Meadowbank fans they will be delighted at the final outcome after Bill Hunter destroyed THEIR club. A pity they couldn't see into the future back then at least it would have made the loss of their club a bit easier.

Incidentaly, I wonder how many of the Livingston fans felt sorry for the Meadowbank boys who lost a team when they inherited their team. From recollection there was not much uproar from other teams about this.

The danger now people is that we could easily see a consortium trying to buy a team and franchise them back to Almondvale should livvy fold.

Well there weren't too many Airdrie Utd fans that gave a toss bout the Bankies fans ... It's all about geting what you want ... the end justifies the means and devil take the hindmost . Esp when they were beating Rangers at Ibrox, winning the League Cup and enjoying a soujourn in Europe. That didn't prove much other than you can do a lot with a big budget - even one that was based on dodgy fiscal goings on rather than sound business practice.

Someone up there is looking after the Monklands mob btw - into 2nd Div instead of 3rd when they were allowed to buy our place. Then avoiding relegation when Gretna went tits up and now avoiding relegation due to Livingston.

I don't see what's stopping any consortium buying a league place and applying to play at Almondvale. The precedent's been set .... whether you'd want to is another thing. Ask Jim Ballantyne ... according to the A&C Advertiser he sounds a bit pissed at the apathy of the Airdrie public. He takes a pounding every other week on the Stomp and seems like he's poured a fortune after keeping a team yo-yoing between the 1st and 2nd divs ... and what happens when all the basket cases have been gotten rid of ? No-one to keep them in the 1st then :) ... It's a completely thankless task. I'm sure that Rae the Morton chairman - who undoubtedly saved their bacon - gets it in the neck ... Jings even at our level - our board get pelters and we've not known a season where we've not had some kind of success.

Rankine and McDougall have no real footballing or philanthropic reason to want to be involved with Livingston ... I can't see them wanting to get into the trenches with people ( Livvy fans ) who don't really seem to want to be in there either ...

Edited by BANKIEBILL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have already posted my views on whether we deserve punishment etc. Troll back if you must.

The die have been cast and here we now are, on the absolute brink of extinction. I will say this again and will take huge issue with anyone who thinks this is an unjustified viewpoint,

The Scottish Football League (please not the word league) would be a poorer prospect without a senior football team from West Lothian as one of its members. The potential to have a non SPL team diluting the support of the Glasgow and Edinburgh teams is very important for the future of the Scottish game. Unless of course we are all happy to watch the slow demise of the Scottish game, we must support football at a local level.

It survived for well over 100 years without a team from that area. So this assertion is palpable nonsense. I could also argue that the SFL would only benefit from a team in Argyll or Caithness. The geogrpahical area the team is based in is an irrelevance.

But as I say here we are. I will take this on the chin and I am now fervently praying that the consortium will now take a 3-5 year hit on their plans. Given our hardcore support and the potential support from West Lothian within the next few decades when we have a bit more history and tradition, this club deserves to be a Division 1 club.

So all the other clubs who currently find themselves in Divisions 2 or 3 will say, too. if you build a title winning team living within your means then fair play. I don't think any club "deserves" to be in any particular league though.

We will have no right to expect instant promotion, look at last Saturday's result for proof of that. But I am not going to accept sitting in Division 3 for a few years. I will be 100% behind the club as we fight to return to Division 1. I want us to be the best supported club in Division 3 home and away. I want our youth system to be producing players that can help us move back up. I want us to be a sustainable club that we can all be proud of. I want other division 3 clubs to look forward to us bringing a large support to their grounds and for them to miss us when we move on up.

again, any Div 3 club could say the same thing.

But most of all I just want us to take this last chance and wipe away the shambles of the past. If we are out of business, it serves no-one any good. Not us, not the SFL or the member teams, not the creditors nor the businesses of West Lothian and beyond who can in the future profit from asuccessful football team.

We deserved to be punished but please don't let it be the end. That's a victory for no-one.

That's kind of up to the consortium and how hardcore your support truly turns out to be after a couple of wet weekends in Stranraer and Elgin. However you do seem ton be one of the more reasnable Livingston fans and as I said in an earlier post there's no reason why demotion to Div 3 should be a "death sentence"- if the majority of the support and the "consortium" are sincere in their intentions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't say clubs should be relegated for late payment of wages (although why not?) but players have to be registered to play for a specific club in the SFL and as the terms of these contracts were clearly not being met IMO that should have been enough for the SFL to intervene.

I'm not trying to say that non-footballing debts are less important and therefore to be ignored just that I think the SFL could have intervened at Livi on the grounds of late payment to players.

I think this probably happens more often than you think, but if say a club was late two or three months in a row then I'd say those were grounds for the SFL to intervene.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But as I say here we are. I will take this on the chin and I am now fervently praying that the consortium will now take a 3-5 year hit on their plans. Given our hardcore support and the potential support from West Lothian within the next few decades when we have a bit more history and tradition, this club deserves to be a Division 1 club.

We will have no right to expect instant promotion, look at last Saturday's result for proof of that. But I am not going to accept sitting in Division 3 for a few years. I will be 100% behind the club as we fight to return to Division 1. I want us to be the best supported club in Division 3 home and away. I want our youth system to be producing players that can help us move back up. I want us to be a sustainable club that we can all be proud of. I want other division 3 clubs to look forward to us bringing a large support to their grounds and for them to miss us when we move on up.

Some good points there.

Both ourselves and (further back) Kilmarnock have had to claw our way out of the bottom tier. Dunfermline & St. Johnstone rose from it in the 80s and are looking sound.

A good run of wins will see your crowds rise to healthy sizes (hell, we had 8500 for the 3rd division title clincher) and if your consortium keep things tight financially then you will be back up here fairly soon (took us 4 years).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Scottish Football League (please not the word league) would be a poorer prospect without a senior football team from West Lothian as one of its members.

History shows that to be bollocks though. The West Lothian teams - Armadale, Bo'ness and maybe now Livingston - that have tried have failed to last the course. The league carried on regardless and will do so with or without Livingston. You're just above East Lothian in the 'importance to senior football' table. Just accept that and get on with trying to save your club without deluding yourself that the club serves an underlying 'noble purpose'

Edited by Millfield Marksman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Flash
Exactly. The SFL were powerless to do anything until Livi actually went into administartion and therefore by complaining about the timing of the decision seems a bit odd. Had the SFL done anything prior to administration Livi would have been within their rights to tell the SFL to beat it.

Obviously it's not the best time for this to happen, however you would still have had people complaining the SFL had been too lenient if they were given a points penalty. Certainly anything less than 20 points would have been a joke. Of course had Livi gone into administration at the end of last season and the SFL relegated them, everyone would have been praising the SFL. Sadly it's the timing of Livi going into administration that has been the problem here and the SFL didn't choose that.

I may have said this before but a club does not have to be in Administration before sanctions can be taken against them. The rule states that sanctions may be applied by the Management Committee -

"on any club guilty of conduct contrary to the interests of the League and its member clubs"

and goes on the list Administration as one of the matters which would fall into that category.

Whether Livi were guilty of the above conduct prior to Administration may be a moot point and may have been difficult to prove even if true but, in general terms, the SFL do not have to wait until an Administrator is appointed before taking action against any member club. All administration does is obviate the need for a "trial" prior to sanctions being imposed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

on the grounds that Livingston had been "on the point of bankruptcy" for a while, on the basis that the club were haemorrhaging money on court cases brought about by Massone's incompetence, on the basis that players and staff were going for months without pay, on the basis that Livingston failed to submit annual accounts as required on the deadline set.

Your analogy about coming round my house hardly works- I'm not obliged to follow any rules as set out by you, however Livingston FC were obliged to follow the laws and reasonable requests of the SFL.

And Livingston were not in breach of any rules laid down by the SFL or required to show them any accounts at all at that point.

Who says Livingston were "on the point of bankruptcy"? The press, some creditors? They were right in fact but Massone denied it. The SFL can't work based on rumour and internet postings. Haemorrhaging money on court cases isn't illegal and plenty other clubs have done the same (my own did so in the 1980's somewhat ludicrously). It's certainly not for the SFL to tell clubs what court cases they can spend money on. Players didn't so far as I am aware go for months without pay though certainly there appear to have been many months when it was paid late. Staff may have done, I'm not sure. In itself that isn't a reason for the SFL to interfere.

Did Livingston fail to submit annual accounts by a deadline? Who to? For what purpose? Got a link to that, I've nver heard that one?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But as I say here we are. I will take this on the chin and I am now fervently praying that the consortium will now take a 3-5 year hit on their plans. Given our hardcore support and the potential support from West Lothian within the next few decades when we have a bit more history and tradition, this club deserves to be a Division 1 club...

...We will have no right to expect instant promotion, look at last Saturday's result for proof of that. But I am not going to accept sitting in Division 3 for a few years. I will be 100% behind the club as we fight to return to Division 1. I want us to be the best supported club in Division 3 home and away. I want our youth system to be producing players that can help us move back up. I want us to be a sustainable club that we can all be proud of. I want other division 3 clubs to look forward to us bringing a large support to their grounds and for them to miss us when we move on up...

...But most of all I just want us to take this last chance and wipe away the shambles of the past. We deserved to be punished but please don't let it be the end. That's a victory for no-one.

Well said SDA. I hope that you can make your club into something to be proud of and I'm sure if every one of your supporters feels like yourself then you will achieve this. Hopefully the backers will be able to see this as well and carry on with their plans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see what's stopping any consortium buying a league place and applying to play at Almondvale. The precedent's been set .... whether you'd want to is another thing.

Indeed they could but the difference here, given that the league place isn't a sellable commodity transferrable away from the company, is that the only way to do so is to buy the company with debt included and either pay them or come to an arrangement with them.

A consortium could buy Livingston FC, change the name to Livingston Thistle and carry on if they can deal with the debts. But Spartans or Cove can't buy their league place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well said SDA. I hope that you can make your club into something to be proud of and I'm sure if every one of your supporters feels like yourself then you will achieve this. Hopefully the backers will be able to see this as well and carry on with their plans.

I'd like to echo those comments from my fellow Doonhamer. Hopefully Rankine, McDougall and Nixon have been working away feverishly behind the scenes and I trust something good will come of this sorry episode for Scottish football.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't find a link to it, no, but Massone failed to submit annual accounts to the SFL and the club was fined £5000 suspended until September, at the end of 2008-9. It happened at the same meeting that the SFL fell for his blandishments about the club's future.

I think Flash's post above answers all your other questions about the SFL "being unable" to take action unless a club is in administration. There was a lack of political will to tackle the problem in reasonable time.

I would agree that the SFL were in a very tight spot, but stick to the view that they should have acted- and taken this decision- much sooner than they chose to.

Edit- found a link- it's mentioned in this old Tit & Bum article. The club had to submit accounts to the SFA, not the SFL, and it was them who fined them. To what purpose, you'll have to write and ask the SFA, I can only assume it's something to do with club licensing.

Fine for Failing to Submit Accounts

Edited by Ivo den Bieman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

History shows that to be bollocks though. The West Lothian teams - Armadale, Bo'ness and maybe now Livingston - that have tried have failed to last the course. The league carried on regardless and will do so with or without Livingston. You're just above East Lothian in the 'importance to senior football' table. Just accept that and get on with trying to save your club without deluding yourself that the club serves an underlying 'noble purpose'

Not so sure. You can talk about history but it's the future you should perhaps focus on. As we potentially wave goodbye to the second team in the same amount of years, can we really say that the future is rosy. Who will be next and what's the future for the SFL. It needs strong and well supported teams so that it can be a viable alternative to the SPL for local supporters. The SPL likewise needs strong teams who can add to it's appeal as a strong league. I can't see the benefit of a team with the potential of Livingston being replaced by the likes of Cove Rangers. Can you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

McDougall is too much of a shrewd cookie to pay a First Division price for a Third Division club.

On purely business reasons he should walk away - but the man loves his football and he may just stay on and build the club up again. After all he pumped stock car money into Cowden for nearly 20 years when he could have so easily let the club die.

However, to be refused permission to address the SFL meeting must have been a kick in the teeth and who could blame him for calling it a day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Flash
I can't find a link to it, no, but Massone failed to submit annual accounts to the SFL and the club was fined £5000 suspended until September, at the end of 2008-9. It happened at the same meeting that the SFL fell for his blandishments about the club's future.

I think Flash's post above answers all your other questions about the SFL "being unable" to take action unless a club is in administration. There was a lack of political will to tackle the problem in reasonable time.

I would agree that the SFL were in a very tight spot, but stick to the view that they should have acted- and taken this decision- much sooner than they chose to.

I think (but not sure) that breaching a player's contract also allows the Management Committee to take any action it deems fit. So, not paying players on time may fall into that category. Think it is Rule 54, but it ties into SFA rules and employment contracts, so you would really need to read everything in order to be certain on whether any action that could be taken.

I would imagine if a player complained to his Union and the employer didn't resolve the issue, it would be up to the SFL to step in and deal with it as it saw fit. It would probably need some form of complaint first, rather than just reports of late payment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not so sure. You can talk about history but it's the future you should perhaps focus on. As we potentially wave goodbye to the second team in the same amount of years, can we really say that the future is rosy. Who will be next and what's the future for the SFL. It needs strong and well supported teams so that it can be a viable alternative to the SPL for local supporters. The SPL likewise needs strong teams who can add to it's appeal as a strong league. I can't see the benefit of a team with the potential of Livingston being replaced by the likes of Cove Rangers. Can you?

Yes, I can.

A club which lives within tis means and can be relied on to fulfil its fixtures.

a second team for the Aberdeen area playing in a new purpose built stadium which is currently being planned.

a club committed to playing tis way through the leagues within the rules.

can you suggest why they wouldn't be decent members of the league? Is it just because you think they're a diddy team compared to the mighty "Livi"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But were we not punished today for breaking a specific rule? I cannot remember the rule number or the exact wording (its in this thread somewhere) but basically for entering administration/liquidation. We aren't being punished for 14 years of financial mismanagment. We are being punished for breaking that rule and I don't feel the punishment fits the crime as I explained above.

To believe that the current administration has been taken in isolation I believe is naive, in most organisations and in criminal law a 1st offence is normally treated to the minimum sanction, repeating the same offence will see that sanction increase.

After reading the threads from yesterday, especially the blinkered, foul mouthed diatribes from "Larry the Lion" who alienated any sympathetic fans, it's good to see someone look at it from a level headed stand point.

It's fair to say other factors may have been taken into consideration at yesterdays meeting, the treatment given to the Albion Rovers manager and staff by Livi players and fans which influenced their and other Chairmen, the back lash on here and other Club based forums to last weeks percieved leniency which Chairmen do take heed of, A consortium claiming to have the club at heart but who freely admitted they would pull out if relegated and probably most damaging of all the admission on the day of the meeting that the players wages had not been paid.

Some will say as an Airdrie Utd fan it's easy to say this but having seen Airdrieonians go to the wall, it tempers the joy of returning to Div 1 somewhat, but blaming Massone for what happened to Livi is like blaming Alan Shearer for Newcastle Utd's relegation, the damage was already done.

Livi can survive and come back but unless the rent at Almondvale is drasticly reduced it will be the millstone round Livi's neck that will become a tombstone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

McDougall is too much of a shrewd cookie to pay a First Division price for a Third Division club.

On purely business reasons he should walk away - but the man loves his football and he may just stay on and build the club up again. After all he pumped stock car money into Cowden for nearly 20 years when he could have so easily let the club die.

However, to be refused permission to address the SFL meeting must have been a kick in the teeth and who could blame him for calling it a day.

I've absolutely no idea why he's become so obsessed with Livingston in the last month or so. I have the feeling he'll cling on and try and run the club in the third division just to stick the blazers one in the eye.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...