Livingston - all the threads merged

[LongTimeLurker]

Good to see the football authorities rediscovering their spine and doing the right thing on this. The idea that club after club could run up massive debts then carry on pretty much as before by wiping the slate clean by giving a few pennies on the pound to their creditors through a CVA was morally reprehensible. The reality is that Livingston cheated to get to the SPL and win the League Cup and cheated again last season to stay in the first division last season by spending way more money than they could afford, while Airdire lived within their means. It's time Scottish football had the sort of club license system they have in Germany where clubs can get booted out of the top national divisions for running up excessive debts even when they don't go into administration. [/rant]

[7-2]

Why the harshest penalty possible, because only then did it secure promotion for two other clubs. Cynical? That word doesn't even cover it. One trouser leg up, get licking those frogs boys!

What a scene today in the meeting eh? The Airdrie chairman chairing the meeting that will see his club get promoted, Black, red faced and passionate, rallying the old gaurd. What a conspiracy of wanks!

Terrible, isnt it. By the way, do you know if Jim Leishman missed out on this weeks meeting?

[ayrmad]

Too tired to read the previous pages,but I think this decision is terrible for all SFL clubs as most are only a baw hair away from the same scenario,all this has done is sounded the death knell for another club and brought Airdrie a bit closer to theirs as well due to the apathy already at the club.

I'll keep saying it,self-interest is killing our game and until it stops our game is going to continue to slide nearer the abyss. Admin,insolvency etc should have clearly defined punishments not arbitrary ones that we'll judge on each individual clubs merits,2 years time if Mad Vlads' world comes crashing down and Hearts are in the SFL then become insolvent like Livi will they be relegated to Div 3 where they will have no chance of servicing all their creditors and debts? Don't think so.

Our governing bodies couldn't arrange a shag in a whore house without months of indecision.

It's ok fans saying they deserved the punishment for their behaviour over the past 14 years but that doesn't take away the fact that fans are going to lose the club they support,number of fans is irrelevant IMO,I know Meadowbank fans will still be bitter towards Livi but that's not the fault of the Livi supporters.

Edited August 6, 2009 by ayrmad

[LongTimeLurker]

Too tired to read the previous pages,but I think this decision is terrible for all SFL clubs as most are only a baw hair away from the same scenario,all this has done is sounded the death knell for another club and brought Airdrie a bit closer to theirs as well due to the apathy already at the club.

Given all the handouts from the SFA and SFL clubs can easily live within their means if they are willing to accept relegation and finding their natural level within the game as the consequence. There is no reason why Meadowbank Thistle couldn't still be around playing at Meadownbank Stadium in front of 200 or so. Livingston's financial problems are due to not being willing to accept that their natural habitat without all the financial doping that has taken place since the move out of Edinburgh would still probably be as a part-time second and third division yo-yo team. If the would be new owners can't face that reality then clearly it is time to pull the plug. If a new team has to be let in to make up the numbers to 30 again, maybe Edinburgh City should be added so the original sustainable Meadowbank Thistle setup can be restored.

[Numbers]

So ayrmad are you saying livingston fans do not deserve to lose their club.

This present situation has not been going on for just a few weeks but for the greater part of last season. They saw this coming, but what did they do to help. Answer "Diddly Squat" and instead chose to sit and wait for a white knight to come along yet again to save them.

Sorry, but charity starts at home and livi fans have shown very little charity towards their own home club.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Numbers

[ayrmad]

Given all the handouts from the SFA and SFL clubs can easily live within their means if they are willing to accept relegation and finding their natural level within the game as the consequence. There is no reason why Meadowbank Thistle couldn't still be around playing at Meadownbank Stadium in front of 200 or so. Livingston's financial problems are due to not being willing to accept that their natural habitat without all the financial doping that has taken place since the move out of Edinburgh would still probably be as a part-time second and third division yo-yo team. If the would be new owners can't face that reality then clearly it is time to pull the plug. If a new team has to be let in to make up the numbers to 30 again, maybe Edinburgh City should be added so the original sustainable Meadowbank Thistle setup can be restored.

Your post is correct,how many teams actually live within their means in Scotland? Partick tried it in the SPL and got relegated as they were one of the few doing it in the SPL at that time. The problem at Livi is that a team in the lower leagues probably couldn't afford to pay the rent and put a team on the park that could compete at the same time.

My own team took a gamble that paid off last season that I wasn't entirely happy about,but what is the point of football if there is no ambition shown? The fans would just slowly drift away as you need excitement somewhere down the line.

At the moment Airdries' level is Div 2 but for the 2nd season running they're being made to play in Div 1 and IMHO it is slowly killing them.

Edited August 6, 2009 by ayrmad

[ayrmad]

So ayrmad are you saying livingston fans do not deserve to lose their club.

This present situation has not been going on for just a few weeks but for the greater part of last season. They saw this coming, but what did they do to help. Answer "Diddly Squat" and instead chose to sit and wait for a white knight to come along yet again to save them.

Sorry, but charity starts at home and livi fans have shown very little charity towards their own home club.

It's always easy to slate the Livi fans but when apathy sets in it's hard to motivate the fans,I've witnessed it at my own club fairly recently,when Ayr were originally trying for planning permission 1500(more Ayr fans than attended most of the home games last season where we were unbeaten) turned up at a Council meeting in the Citadel,if that same meeting had taken place 2 seasons ago we probably wouldn't have got more than 100 or 200 fans attending.

It's always easy to take the I'm all right Jack approach when things are going swimmingly,but like other clubs I've watched my team when it's one man and his dog stuff.

Ayr have just came through a period of for the most part doing it the correct way, and it's fcuking soul destroying,you start to question wether you should be taking your family to the cinema or bowling instead of wasting your cash watching chancers barely breaking sweat coz that's all your club can afford,and I'm a die hard so god knows how your going to keep waiverers watching during the period of inactivity.

Edited August 6, 2009 by ayrmad

[LLD]

Oh get a grip man. This was NOT potentially our last game. This was NOT a major event for us. It was ALL of these things for you, yet here you are again completely unable to accept that things ain't right. How can i put the boot in? I have made a valid point that once again, you seem to be completely unable of accepting at face value.

You guys can talk a lot about the "disgusting" views of others wrt your plight, but Jesus wept, for one who seemed to suss Massone ahead of anyone else, you've turned into one hell of a drama queen ever since. Your comments wrt redundancies at Livingston were shameful. Trying to place that at the door of anyone other than your own club was pathetic.

I also loved how you were presenting 500k for the creditors (maybe 50p in the pound) as being some sort of saintly act to be proud of. Amazing the things that you see as acceptable, and the things you see as worthy of your Mr Angry ire.......i.e., an internet posting is r-e-a-l-l-y bad, but screwing people for half of what they are due is something to preen your feathers over (with zero mention of the potential for job losses that sort of thing might induce.......but of course, you don't actually give a toss cause it isn't someone at reception at Almondvale, so they don't really count). Aye, you are one dude with his concerns and priorities all sorted out.

The game was arranged on the hoof? Come off it, it was arranged several days ago.

It doesn't matter what anyone says you just turn it on its head and put the boot in again and again.

You have turned misrepresenting my views into an art form.

[nick cash]

Good moring Livi fans, and welcome to the world where ripping peopleoff is no longer acceptable, or i living outwith your means, a brave new world for you, time for your saviours to ride of into the distance. Did Masssone actually get his 50k.

Would it be too much to ask Airdrie and Cowden get a 12 point bonus due to the inconvenience of having built teams for a lower league !, you know it makes sense.

[TheDoctor]

Good moring Livi fans, and welcome to the world where ripping peopleoff is no longer acceptable, or i living outwith your means, a brave new world for you, time for your saviours to ride of into the distance. Did Masssone actually get his 50k.

Would it be too much to ask Airdrie and Cowden get a 12 point bonus due to the inconvenience of having built teams for a lower league !, you know it makes sense.

Should you not be nicking hub caps or sitting in a corner shooting up Buckfast, you fucking imbecile?

[Guest onedavierae]

"Word around some of the squad is that the new Board are lining up Gary Bollan as coach assisted by another ex-Livvy man Stevie Tosh. That would be a great combination for the club. I just hope that they also keep hold of John Murphy who seems to be doing a good job in difficult circumstances."

If the above is/was true (taken from the BBC Sport site comments) it looks like Bollan and Tosh's next career move is off.

[lyle be back]

First chance I've had to comment on this since the news broke.

1. I didn't expect the outcome. I predicted earlier in the day I predicted that a supine SFL would roll over. I suspect the blackmail tactics of McDoog and Rankine backfired spectacularly as well as a complete lack of contrition shown by Livi.

2. I would have preferred a 15-20 point deduction, combined with transfer restrictions and evidence of a business plan that matched income to cost. Virtually dooming Livi, but keeping fixture sanity and not promoting Airdrie etc into a division they had not prepared for.

3. Saying that, the attitude of a number of Livi fans, both as a reaction to the decision last week and the whinging at Albion's ground when getting pumped out of the cup hardened my views against Livi considerably. A 'big club' mentality existed which was not justified given the black and white facts.

4. This coupled with the 'white knight' approach and the unwillingness of Livi to work at delivering sustainable football had alienated me against the club significantly.

5. The decision made has caused a great deal of upheaval 3 days before the start of the season and has not cast anybody in a good light.

6. I feel sorry for those Livi fans who have supported their club and have seen relegation and possible extinction. However this is not some conspiracy by the other clubs, not some unjustified punishment, not some 'self preservation society'. It is the reaction of a body that obviously could not see Livi guaranteeing its fixtures next season, which was being blackmailed over a previously agreed bond that Livi had to lodge to demonstrate its ability to fulfil its fixtures and which had to take action as a result. If Livi had gone under halfway through the season then the SFL would have looked more stupid.

7. Therefore Livi have nobody to blame but themselves for the situation they find themselves in.

8.. Livi fans need to go away and work with the council, local businesses, the white knights (if they haven't legged it) and other key community bodies to build a sustainabkle future for the club, one where it lives within its means. If done the right way, this may allow Livi to appear in the 1st within a few years on available basis.

[TheDoctor]

First chance I've had to comment on this since the news broke.

1. I didn't expect the outcome. I predicted earlier in the day I predicted that a supine SFL would roll over. I suspect the blackmail tactics of McDoog and Rankine backfired spectacularly as well as a complete lack of contrition shown by Livi.

Their comments in yesterday's press may well have influenced those that voted the way they did. The outcome wasn't expected, but not surprising as it was always an option.

2. I would have preferred a 15-20 point deduction, combined with transfer restrictions and evidence of a business plan that matched income to cost. Virtually dooming Livi, but keeping fixture sanity and not promoting Airdrie etc into a division they had not prepared for.

100% correct. I think most people would agree with that.

3. Saying that, the attitude of a number of Livi fans, both as a reaction to the decision last week and the whinging at Albion's ground when getting pumped out of the cup hardened my views against Livi considerably. A 'big club' mentality existed which was not justified given the black and white facts.

Given their team was already the most hated team after last week's events, some of them weren't very humble in their response and the alleged comments about Cliftonhill were out of order. Now they get to go back there.

4. This coupled with the 'white knight' approach and the unwillingness of Livi to work at delivering sustainable football had alienated me against the club significantly.

Don't fully agree with you here. The fans were unwilling to work with Massone because of the shambles he had made and to a point, I understand why. But only having a business plan to reflect First Division football seemed arrogant to the point of naive IMO.

5. The decision made has caused a great deal of upheaval 3 days before the start of the season and has not cast anybody in a good light.

It goes back to your earlier point about a points deduction. At least if that had been implemented, the appeal process could have gone on while the season was underway. That or the club could have played and won their points back.

6. I feel sorry for those Livi fans who have supported their club and have seen relegation and possible extinction. However this is not some conspiracy by the other clubs, not some unjustified punishment, not some 'self preservation society'. It is the reaction of a body that obviously could not see Livi guaranteeing its fixtures next season, which was being blackmailed over a previously agreed bond that Livi had to lodge to demonstrate its ability to fulfil its fixtures and which had to take action as a result. If Livi had gone under halfway through the season then the SFL would have looked more stupid.

I see what you're saying about the SFL having to cover itself and as I said previously, the consortium's comments did not help in any way. However the clubs could have thought things through a little better instead of leading us into anarchy three days before the first round of league fixtures.

7. Therefore Livi have nobody to blame but themselves for the situation they find themselves in.

Agreed, but to a point. The SFL sat back while the money situation worsened under Massone and even when approached, just opted to keep a "watchful eye" on things instead of working to resolve the issue.

8.. Livi fans need to go away and work with the council, local businesses, the white knights (if they haven't legged it) and other key community bodies to build a sustainabkle future for the club, one where it lives within its means. If done the right way, this may allow Livi to appear in the 1st within a few years on available basis.

It's the only way forward, just to take the punishment and start building for the future and draw a line under the whole sorry mess.

[greytroot]

Awww this and till they have ten days to appeal.... what happens to airdrie if they then play a game in 1st div (and cowdenbeah in 2nd) spend dosh uprating team and then livvi win appeal.

livvi should be dducted huge points - in effect relegated next season - then be allowed to appeal. rules need to be published/stuck to.

[TheDoctor]

Awww this and till they have ten days to appeal.... what happens to airdrie if they then play a game in 1st div (and cowdenbeah in 2nd) spend dosh uprating team and then livvi win appeal.

livvi should be dducted huge points - in effect relegated next season - then be allowed to appeal. rules need to be published/stuck to.

My information is they have until noon tomorrow to appeal

[marty_j]

If the would be new owners can't face that reality then clearly it is time to pull the plug. If a new team has to be let in to make up the numbers to 30 again, maybe Edinburgh City should be added so the original sustainable Meadowbank Thistle setup can be restored.

Knowing a few Meadowbank fans they will be delighted at the final outcome after Bill Hunter destroyed THEIR club. A pity they couldn't see into the future back then at least it would have made the loss of their club a bit easier.

Incidentaly, I wonder how many of the Livingston fans felt sorry for the Meadowbank boys who lost a team when they inherited their team. From recollection there was not much uproar from other teams about this.

The danger now people is that we could easily see a consortium trying to buy a team and franchise them back to Almondvale should livvy fold.

[RayBees]

So what's the deal? Have they pulled out of the 3rd division altogether?

[shizzlemanizzle]

Terrible, isnt it. By the way, do you know if Jim Leishman missed out on this weeks meeting?

The woman who served the dessert at yesterdays meeting told me that it was Leishman who pushed the decision through. She said he turned up in fancy dress, smoking a big cigar, posed for a few publicity pics and then spent an hour reciting some of his own well thought out, insightful poetry. "Leishman Hates The Livi" seemed to be the most popular of his ditties. B)

[Ivo den Bieman]

So what's the deal? Have they pulled out of the 3rd division altogether?

whoever claimed that yesterday was definitely jumping the gun.

Apparently there is a player's meeting this morning and then a statement will be posted on the club website indicating what they plan to do next.

FWIW I think "Livi" will get on with it and try and start the season in Div 3, if none of the triumvirate cut and run. An appeal will be costly and almost certainly doomed to fail.

[Guest]

Earlier today I was trying to think about the purpose of the punishment that is handed out by the SFL when clubs break the rules by entering administration. I was under the impression that the idea is that clubs shouldn't be allowed to spend outwith their means as it disadvantages other clubs who have done the right thing and matched expenditure with income i.e if last season we had built a team that we could afford to pay for then we would likely have finished bottom and Airdrie would have stayed up. Therefore we should be punished for disadvanting Airdrie etc. If we are talking about justice though then surely the punishment should fit the crime? If we had spent within our means last season the worst we would have faced is finishing bottom and being relegated to the second division. Surely then the right punishment would have been to relagate us to Div 2? Would be quite happy to accept that. In fact i would be happy to accept todays punishment as well - provided I knew for sure that the club could survive it. I really don't know if we will.

It makes me sick to my stomach thinking about the creditors and staff members who have lost out on money they were owed. As things stood yesterday the plan was to try and reach an agreement to settle those debts as far as possible through a CVA. Thats still the plan but is anyone on here naive enough to think that the creditors won't lose out on todays decison? The offer that will be made now won't be nearly as good as the one on the cars when we had 1st Div gates to count on. Yes the club caused this situation through poor financial management and deserves to be punished for that but surely getting these people a least a fraction of what they are owed should come before vengance? A 10/20/30 point penalty would have ensured relegation to the 2nd div which would be just (see above) and allowed us to try and repay some debt allowing a better deal for the creditors. Todays decison leaves the league a shambles with teams prepared for one divison ending up in another and the creditors worse off.

I didn't claim to quote you, but here is the essence of what you said. Now that you've been put down to the 3rd, there is a mini groundswell saying that you should remain in the first for the benefit of the creditors because being in the first meant you were going to use the money to pay your bills. I noticed with the CVA you used the vague "as far as possible" caveat. You then say that the creditors will now lose out due to the SFL's decision. That kind of does say that if the SFL move you to Div3, you will give the creditors less money.

You are turning the debt repayment issue into being someone else's fault. It's the classic bolthole for assetless organisations in debt.........."screw with us, and you'll get less or nowt."

LFC have a history of being the nouveau riche club that walked all over everyone, and painted themselves as the new model army for provincial Scottish clubs. Lots of people remember the spoutings of Leishman and Keane (and a good number of the support) very well. They were almost the footballing equivalent of Alan B'Stard. Now that things have gone pear shaped, LFC have morphed into Citizen Smith.