Livingston - all the threads merged

[Motown Blue]

Earlier today I was trying to think about the purpose of the punishment that is handed out by the SFL when clubs break the rules by entering administration. I was under the impression that the idea is that clubs shouldn't be allowed to spend outwith their means as it disadvantages other clubs who have done the right thing and matched expenditure with income i.e if last season we had built a team that we could afford to pay for then we would likely have finished bottom and Airdrie would have stayed up. Therefore we should be punished for disadvanting Airdrie etc. If we are talking about justice though then surely the punishment should fit the crime? If we had spent within our means last season the worst we would have faced is finishing bottom and being relegated to the second division. Surely then the right punishment would have been to relagate us to Div 2? Would be quite happy to accept that. In fact i would be happy to accept todays punishment as well - provided I knew for sure that the club could survive it. I really don't know if we will.

It makes me sick to my stomach thinking about the creditors and staff members who have lost out on money they were owed. As things stood yesterday the plan was to try and reach an agreement to settle those debts as far as possible through a CVA. Thats still the plan but is anyone on here naive enough to think that the creditors won't lose out on todays decison? The offer that will be made now won't be nearly as good as the one on the cars when we had 1st Div gates to count on. Yes the club caused this situation through poor financial management and deserves to be punished for that but surely getting these people a least a fraction of what they are owed should come before vengance? A 10/20/30 point penalty would have ensured relegation to the 2nd div which would be just (see above) and allowed us to try and repay some debt allowing a better deal for the creditors. Todays decison leaves the league a shambles with teams prepared for one divison ending up in another and the creditors worse off.

The gutter is that the man who caused this has walked away with £50k in his pocket and we are the ones left trying to pick up the pieces and deal with the consequences of his gross mismanagement.

Its kinda like someone who is in jail and seeking parole, if he goes up before the parole board and refuses to accept he should be in jail anyway, then says that he will only accept parole if his demands are met, well he's F****D

[Monster]

Everyone else, ask yourselves how you would feel in our position and get a grip.

I've a fair idea as we were almost away in 2003. We had to pay every penny back, and have had six years of being a laughing stock with junior players while we did so.

Some of the comments have been pretty crap and I'm sure you're going through it just now.

I suggest that you all shut the doors at Almondvale right now, all get together and start yourselves a community club that will flourish to whatever level it can, have a constitution that disbars shysters ( and, importantly, all their hangers on!) from owning the club and allows the football fans in the community to have a genuine pride in something that garners respect. I honestly believe that's the way forward for provincial clubs.

[livi_chic]

This is not just Massone's fault. Please try, try, try to understand that Livingston have been shown to be a financial basket case since the blessed Keane's demise. This is a story 14 years in the making, not just 14 months

But were we not punished today for breaking a specific rule? I cannot remember the rule number or the exact wording (its in this thread somewhere) but basically for entering administration/liquidation. We aren't being punished for 14 years of financial mismanagment. We are being punished for breaking that rule and I don't feel the punishment fits the crime as I explained above. I didn't agree with the way Flynn ran the club - but to be fair all creditors/staff were paid throughout his time at the club. This punishment is for what has happened in the last year. If McDougall/Rankine had taken control of the club this time last year instead of Massone and ran it by the proposed business plan as a community based club do you really think we would have entered administration?

[Guest]

Earlier today I was trying to think about the purpose of the punishment that is handed out by the SFL when clubs break the rules by entering administration. I was under the impression that the idea is that clubs shouldn't be allowed to spend outwith their means as it disadvantages other clubs who have done the right thing and matched expenditure with income i.e if last season we had built a team that we could afford to pay for then we would likely have finished bottom and Airdrie would have stayed up. Therefore we should be punished for disadvanting Airdrie etc. If we are talking about justice though then surely the punishment should fit the crime? If we had spent within our means last season the worst we would have faced is finishing bottom and being relegated to the second division. Surely then the right punishment would have been to relagate us to Div 2? Would be quite happy to accept that. In fact i would be happy to accept todays punishment as well - provided I knew for sure that the club could survive it. I really don't know if we will.

It makes me sick to my stomach thinking about the creditors and staff members who have lost out on money they were owed. As things stood yesterday the plan was to try and reach an agreement to settle those debts as far as possible through a CVA. Thats still the plan but is anyone on here naive enough to think that the creditors won't lose out on todays decison? The offer that will be made now won't be nearly as good as the one on the cars when we had 1st Div gates to count on. Yes the club caused this situation through poor financial management and deserves to be punished for that but surely getting these people a least a fraction of what they are owed should come before vengance? A 10/20/30 point penalty would have ensured relegation to the 2nd div which would be just (see above) and allowed us to try and repay some debt allowing a better deal for the creditors. Todays decison leaves the league a shambles with teams prepared for one divison ending up in another and the creditors worse off.

The gutter is that the man who caused this has walked away with £50k in his pocket and we are the ones left trying to pick up the pieces and deal with the consequences of his gross mismanagement.

I can sympathise with this view. Rightly or wrongly, Livingston have been judged on their history as much as recent events. There has been a sense of wrongs that have never been put right, and coupled with McGruther's Rankine's and MacDougall's appallingly arrogant and intimidating language, it proved enough for the SFL to deploy it's claws. Personally, I would have been happy to see a 25 point penalty in the first.

While we all have sympathy for people losing their employment, historically, I can;t remember there being any outpouring of grief down Livingston way when the they sidestepped ten million pounds worth of debt five short years ago. There was no inquisition as to what impact that had on people's lives. It wasn't something any regular at Almondvale lost sleep over.

Now that it's on your own doorstep, it's a terrible thing.

The thing is, this is all of Livingston's own making. If they had chosen to honour their debts, today would not have happened. It was always a choice for Livingston to make. They chose to spend the cash elsewhere. You could have paid the chef or the leccy. You decided to sign Armand One. It was always a matter of choices.

You really can't say "don't punish us or the creditors will be impacted by it". That has been the Livvy way for too long, and it has to stop. Your club cannot seek to be immune from punishment by threatening to make things worse for others.

The behaviour of LFC in 2009 has been the straw that has broken the camel's back. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Guest]

Tonights game was a short notice friendly . This could account for the crowd, saying that 200 if a decent amount .

Been known about for a good few days. As i say, well done to those who came. There should have been more. A lot more.

[shizzlemanizzle]

We finally get rid of our woes and have a strong trust driven community model in place and you all slag us off to f**k and hope we disintegrate completely.

Surely you wont be rid of your woes until all the people owed money are paid back in full? Exoneration will only be achieved when every single penny is paid back.

[The Old Northerner]

If McDougall/Rankine had taken control of the club this time last year instead of Massone and ran it by the proposed business plan as a community based club do you really think we would have entered administration?

McDougall/Rankine would, I am sure, have had an entirely different business plan in that situation. Their current plan was formulated to bale out a failed club (provided it stays in Division 1).

Livingston have, for the best part (if not all) of their existence been utterly dependent on spending other peoples money. If it had been the chairman's/board's then fine - but it hasn't

[LLD]

Been known about for a good few days. As i say, well done to those who came. There should have been more. A lot more.

You never pass up the chance to stick the boot in do you? It was a nothing friendly arranged on the hoof FFS.

Thousands of Falkirk season ticket holders didn't turn up either even with free admission thrown in.

[Markka]

I think Ayr and Raith fans will be most delighted by this.

It means they have a better chance of survival, because we'll effectively have a 2nd Division team in the 1st. Not to say Airdrie Utd won't be a threat, but I think they will struggle.

I reckon Livingston were certs for relegation anyway. Airdrie Utd and Cowdenbeath will now probably have to fight against relegation rather than for promotion, so it will be a more diffcult season for them, but i'm sure both teams wont mind.

[Tryfield]

i do feel for the livvy fans. Its not their fault things were allowed to get this bad.

I agree.

Scottish football - What a fucking shambles.

I agree.

Others said last week that the SFL were spineless, the worm has turned, and now people this week say the SFL have grown a backbone.

I'd just like to say that the SFL have shown a great deal of utter buffoonery in this whole sad saga. In two weeks we've seen the "good cop, bad cop" show. Consistency and a very clear understanding that relegation is automatic for a club going into administration(or for any unpaid debts at all) may well stop any further farces like this one. Doesn't the SFL look or listen to jungle drums beating and call in owners, chairmen, conmen before it gets to such a late stage?

Once again, Scottish football is a laughing stock and it's not just a debt ridden club to blame.

[livi_chic]

You really can't say "don't punish us or the creditors will be impacted by it".

I didn't though did I? If I did then quote me. I said punish us but do it in a manner that will get the best deal for the creditors while still giving the message this club broke the rules and that will not be tolerated. Best way of doing that? 20 point penalty = first division income allowing us to come to some sort of CVA (surely a better one that will now (hopefully!) be agreed) and certain relegation to Div 2 which I feel is just as per my arguments in my original post.

Edited August 6, 2009 by livi_chic

[raith_94]

I pity the next club that becomes inslovent, the precedent is set.

There will likely be sympathy with the next club in bother on account of them having cut their cloth to try and become sustainable. Livingston FC have NEVER been sustainable nor, it would seem, even pretended to try to be.

I've a fair idea as we were almost away in 2003. We had to pay every penny back, and have had six years of being a laughing stock with junior players while we did so.

Some of the comments have been pretty crap and I'm sure you're going through it just now.

I suggest that you all shut the doors at Almondvale right now, all get together and start yourselves a community club that will flourish to whatever level it can, have a constitution that disbars shysters ( and, importantly, all their hangers on!) from owning the club and allows the football fans in the community to have a genuine pride in something that garners respect. I honestly believe that's the way forward for provincial clubs.

Sage advice for you LFC. (and others)

[jimbo]

Kudos to the band of 200ish who made the 30 minute trip to TFS.

Pretty good midweek crowd for a 3rd division team I'd say.

[Homer Thompson]

I didn't though did I? If I did then quote me. I said punish us but do it in a manner that will get the best deal for the creditors while still giving the message this club broke the rules and that will not be tolerated. Best way of doing that? 20 point penalty = first division income allowing us to come to some sort of CVA (surely a better one that will now (hopefully!) be agreed) and certain relegation to Div 2 which I feel is just as per my arguments in my original post.

The best deal for the creditors is for Livy to pay them back in full. Maybe now with only 3rd div football to worry about, a budget could be put in place to do this.

Any potential CVA/budget plan should have no bearing on the punishment given to the club, and rightfully didnt

[Buddie Holly]

Let's all laugh at Livvy.

[jimbo]

Quite looking forward to the 3rd division actually. It's where I got hooked on the team in the first place. Much better class of supporter than up in the SPL/1st division. Well apart from one Montrose fan I've heard of.

[Guest]

You never pass up the chance to stick the boot in do you? It was a nothing friendly arranged on the hoof FFS.

Thousands of Falkirk season ticket holders didn't turn up either even with free admission thrown in.

Oh get a grip man. This was NOT potentially our last game. This was NOT a major event for us. It was ALL of these things for you, yet here you are again completely unable to accept that things ain't right. How can i put the boot in? I have made a valid point that once again, you seem to be completely unable of accepting at face value.

You guys can talk a lot about the "disgusting" views of others wrt your plight, but Jesus wept, for one who seemed to suss Massone ahead of anyone else, you've turned into one hell of a drama queen ever since. Your comments wrt redundancies at Livingston were shameful. Trying to place that at the door of anyone other than your own club was pathetic.

I also loved how you were presenting 500k for the creditors (maybe 50p in the pound) as being some sort of saintly act to be proud of. Amazing the things that you see as acceptable, and the things you see as worthy of your Mr Angry ire.......i.e., an internet posting is r-e-a-l-l-y bad, but screwing people for half of what they are due is something to preen your feathers over (with zero mention of the potential for job losses that sort of thing might induce.......but of course, you don't actually give a toss cause it isn't someone at reception at Almondvale, so they don't really count). Aye, you are one dude with his concerns and priorities all sorted out.

The game was arranged on the hoof? Come off it, it was arranged several days ago.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Guest

[7-2]

Cheats never prosper.

Really? You must get yourself up to speed with whats going on at Dens these days.

[Guest]

Quite looking forward to the 3rd division actually. It's where I got hooked on the team in the first place. Much better class of supporter than up in the SPL/1st division. Well apart from one Montrose fan I've heard of.

Well that's about to all change isn't it........

[diamond_for_life]

As an Airdrie fan i had to watch on as my team ceased to be. If this happens to Livingston i will be truelly sympathetic to all their fans.

However just because the fans are dejected and will be effected by their clubs demise it should not excuse a team from being punished for breaching rules.

Livingston have been handed their punishment which could of been better but could of been alot worse. Livingston have been given a chance to start again with a clean slate and for that they should be gratefull.