Livingston - all the threads merged

[Guest]

I have heard that a rich guy did save Falkirk from going down the tubes. I find your comment surprising considering the scorn you have poured on clubs with sugar daddies. If some one hadn't come in at the 11th hour there would have been a few shafted creditors down Falkirk way.

Dearie me Duncan I must have imagined all those Celtic references

A worthy sentiment. Sadly we live in a less than perfect world.

Fair point, I grant you. However, they were merely observations........and true. It's very difficult to refute them. I don't know how well you knew Keane, but he was open enough with his dream of having LFC as a Celtic feeder club, and wanted them to have strong "mutually beneficial" ties to Glasgow Celtic. The association has only recently started to break down. Sure, there were exceptions, but you know as well as I do that the relationship between Livingston and Celtic was worked feverishly by Keane for many years. As I said previously, at a sports event meal, he openly spoke of his desire to get rid of the black in Livingston's colours and replace it with bottle green. It never happened, but it was what he wanted to happen. The "Celtic minded" element of Livingston under Keane was the big selling point to lottery winner McGuinness.

You either chose to see this stuff for what it was, or you didn't.

As for the "perfect world" guff, I'm sure that's how you go about your day to day existance shrugging your shoulders and writing off anyone who chose not to pay you or provide a paid for service as being part of a less than perfect world. Nah, I don't think so. You are simply using that argument to augment Livingston's situation rather than it being a premis by which you expect people to behave.

As for the "rich guy you heard about".............. go do a bit of research Jimbo. Up to now, you are pushing home a point with absolutely no evidence to back it up. I'd suggest that would be because no evidence exists.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Guest

[AND180Y]

According to the credit reference agencies Livi are already in Admin with their already poor credit scores now reduced to zero with an insolvency event "flag".

Better hope the league don't use those references.

[Monster]

Credit & blame can be assigned to individuals. Responsibility remains with the club.

Exactly.

The tone seems to be veering towards 'Massone stitched us up, it wasn't our fault, poor us'.

Somebody let him in the door and sold him their shares. And nobody at the time was protesting.

[jimbo]

Fair point, I grant you. However, they were merely observations........and true. It's very difficult to refute them. I don't know how well you knew Keane, but he was open enough with his dream of having LFC as a Celtic feeder club, and wanted them to have strong "mutually beneficial" ties to Glasgow Celtic. The association has only recently started to break down. Sure, there were exceptions, but you know as well as I do that the relationship between Livingston and Celtic was worked feverishly by Keane for many years. As I said previously, at a sports event meal, he openly spoke of his desire to get rid of the black in Livingston's colours and replace it with bottle green. It never happened, but it was what he wanted to happen. The "Celtic minded" element of Livingston under Keane was the big selling point to lottery winner McGuinness.

You either chose to see this stuff for what it was, or you didn't.

As for the "perfect world" guff, I'm sure that's how you go about your day to day existance shrugging your shoulders and writing off anyone who chose not to pay you or provide a paid for service as being part of a less than perfect world. Nah, I don't think so. You are simply using that argument to augment Livingston's situation rather than it being a premis by which you expect people to behave.

As for the "rich guy you heard about".............. go do a bit of research Jimbo. Up to now, you are pushing home a point with absolutely no evidence to back it up. I'd suggest that would be because no evidence exists.

Duncan believe me I share your scorn for those who don't pay what they owe. On a personal level, mortgage apart, I just don't carry debt and would be ashamed ever to welch on paying what is owed. I have been conned out of money by unscrupulous characters on more than a few occasions. I understand your anger. Keane Flynn and Massone have done shameful things at Livi in my name. I suppose in any other sphere of life I would have walked away long before now but football has this hold on me (you?) that nothing else does. There is a tipping point though and I am close to it. This last week has been hell for Livi fans and I know that if it doesn't work this time I am definitely out. Probabtion is currently being served by the new board as far as I am concerned.

Re the Falkirk debt I have no reason not to believe the person who said this. He was closely involved in the situation at the time. Yes I have pushed it in the last 24 hours and you will have to forgive me for that. Sometimes though when you have been listening to the same mantra for many months you do need to hit back just a little.

And if Dominic Keane had ever for a moment thought he could get away with sticking any shade of green into the Livi strip then it is just further proof of how misguided the man was.

[Guest]

Duncan believe me I share your scorn for those who don't pay what they owe. On a personal level, mortgage apart, I just don't carry debt and would be ashamed ever to welch on paying what is owed. I have been conned out of money by unscrupulous characters on more than a few occasions. I understand your anger. Keane Flynn and Massone have done shameful things at Livi in my name. I suppose in any other sphere of life I would have walked away long before now but football has this hold on me (you?) that nothing else does. There is a tipping point though and I am close to it. This last week has been hell for Livi fans and I know that if it doesn't work this time I am definitely out. Probabtion is currently being served by the new board as far as I am concerned.

Re the Falkirk debt I have no reason not to believe the person who said this. He was closely involved in the situation at the time. Yes I have pushed it in the last 24 hours and you will have to forgive me for that. Sometimes though when you have been listening to the same mantra for many months you do need to hit back just a little.

And if Dominic Keane had ever for a moment thought he could get away with sticking any shade of green into the Livi strip then it is just further proof of how misguided the man was.

As was I. That's why I know he is wrong. He is speaking about Martin Ritchie who came in and re-structured the debt. He did not allow one penny of it to be "re-structured" into non payment. We all know finances are difficult in Scottish football. It is Livingston's attempt to return to the well of non payment for a third time which is so unacceptable to us.

It just seems to be that this club more than any other has adopted non payment of debt as being an ok thing to do. I noticed on LL this morning someone saying that cutting players salaries will be next and given how parlous things are, "they won't be hard to deal with".

There is this callous inbred attitude amongst the Livvy support that now also see not honouring debts or existing contracts as acceptable regardless of the circumstances or the impact. It's just awful, and already at this early stage, jokers like CDE have shown just how short lived and disingenuous the contrition was.

My views can be interpreted as extreme. I don't mind that. I simply want to see the debate staying where I believe it should be.........on the appalling behaviour of LFC for 14 years, and in particular the mean spirited and morally bunkrupt shenanigans of the past six years.

Whether Livvy fans can in their heart of hearts choose to wash their hands of it all and claim it was nowt to do with them, is down to the individual. There seems to be a happy majority who take that stance.

Keane at that time was in a position to do anything he wanted. He was seen as a hero, and everyone at Almondvale aligned themselves with everything he did, and everything he said. That the support have been unable to muster organized resistance to what has been going on for years and years does not point to a support that would have launched any concerted effort to prevent scope creep when it came to club colours. Look at your amber shirts of old. That ain't the colour you play in now. These things can be changed by stealth. Black to bottle green can be achieved over a three strip change quite easily.........and that was where he was headed. Oh, and he didn't see the strip as either yellow or amber......he always referred to it as "gold". We all know why.

[thejailender]

Any developments today.

I'm back at work so can't sit looking through pages and pages of posts.. A lunch time / end of day re-cap would be good !

[phantoms-livi-lass]

An interesting piece of Sherlock Holmes work there, but entirely wrong. "Once upon a time" supporter.............I have been a season ticket holder for over thirty years. My work takes me abroad a fair bit, so I miss games, but due to buying a season ticket, I've paid for the seat even when I can't be there. I don't always choose to indulge in match precis of every game I attend.

About Falkirk facing relegation and "not bothering too much"............this is based on my comments in the Falkirk thread from last season that you probably missed?

Other funding to Falkirk FC. Well, I guess I am your usual shareholding fan with a couple of thousand in shares, but over the last decade, I could legitimately claim to have put well over fifty thousand pounds Falkirk's way through a couple of ventures. None of it gave me any form of return in kind. I have never taken a penny profit out of Falkirk FC.

Owed money from the past Livingston regime.................yep, £6808.18 plus VAT for work carried out in June 2003.

Hope that removes some of the "haziness".

I've never been much of a detective. I got bored a few pages in.

I appreciate your answer Duncan, When the waffleingmint came out with the wee line about Gretna It was like a red rag to a bull, I thought you had been at it all the time but I did say I never found anything of the sort. I'm glad you answered my question about Falkirk as it is a genuine question & fair do's for answering, A lot of folk on here think it's ok to fire questions at us (obviously we deserve it as we are plastic, franchised, stole the cup etc. ) but refuse to answer back when questioned themselves, so thanks. One we thing though did you always hate Livi or was it just when we went into admin & you were affected? I do ask this because you seem to get in a twist because of Celtic connections, to be honest if you ask most of the fans out here there was more Jambo connection than anything else, we used to get called the wee Jambo's.

[Stadio Delle Almondvale]

Falkirk are playing Livingston at TFS on wed 5th Aug 7.30pm kick off.

What's the capacity at TFS these days?

I assume there are two capacities, one for when Duncan and his enormous chips are with him and one for when he's absent.

[KingfaetheSooth]

Reading between the lines and it appears that WLC, the Trust, the Administrators, Rankine and and McDougall have been hard at work, over the last few weeks, orchestrating the outcome of yesterdays meeting.

While fans from all clubs saw no way back for Livi this group appear to have played their cards very well, WLC played thier part by instigating the court appearance, at the worst time for the SFL, but undoubtebly the best for Livi.

Massone? Who knows, either a clown or very astute, either way he will also benefit from this ruling through an increased offer to walk away.

While fans sat, awaiting the inevitable, all the above were probably having a snigger at the naivety of those on this board.

The SFL have been accused of sitting back and doing nothing while it appeared the house of cards was collapsing, I have a feeling that they were kept fully informed, and were in agreement with, all that was unfolding.

I am almost certain that the other SFL clubs will vote for the change in rules to allow this to go through, fans will not be happy, but when was that ever a consideration for those that run our game.

Good post.

Interesting.

McIntyre is also on the League Management Committee.

It really is all about self-interest and all the blazers know each other. It's much the same at many smaller football clubs where the local solicitor and accountant get involved with the football club to raise their profile and help their business.

Aye i'd say a deduction looks likely.

I'd also have to ask what their motivation is (new owners). There's the £700,000 plus, creditors will have to get something, and unless Livi are getting the numbers through the turnstiles, they will have to make good those losses as well.

It has to be all about the stadium & land.

It's often about stadium and land when it comes to football clubs - but at the end of the day, they'll tell you it's just business.

[Guest]

What's the capacity at TFS these days?

I assume there are two capacities, one for when Duncan and his enormous chips are with him and one for when he's absent.

Do I really need to tell you how pathetic that was? I assumed you would have worked it out for yourself, but apparently not.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Guest

[WaffenThinMint]

What's the capacity at TFS these days?

I assume there are two capacities, one for when Duncan and his enormous chips are with him and one for when he's absent.

Agreed.

Ok, mark me becoming tired of your obsessive use of sexual references

You can now skip off in search of your next "victim". This one has tired of you.

And we of you long ago – up to the same old tricks here as you did on the MAD boards, jumping in on a 'club going bust' threat to gloat under a veneer of sermons about 'financial integrity'

Edited August 3, 2009 by WaffenThinMint

[raith1974]

If Livingston escape relegation, which IMO they shouldn't, then the SFA must ensure that a suitable punishment is put in place after all this is not the first time this club has gone into administration and the ruling will set a presidence. IMO a heavy points reduction like they do down south has to happen and not just 10 points at least double.

If they don't punish to the full what stops clubs in the future going into administration to ease debt then start up again in the same league on the same points, nothing.

[vikingTON]

100 points!

[phantoms-livi-lass]

If Livingston escape relegation, which IMO they shouldn't, then the SFA must ensure that a suitable punishment is put in place after all this is not the first time this club has gone into administration and the ruling will set a presidence. IMO a heavy points reduction like they do down south has to happen and not just 10 points at least double.

If they don't punish to the full what stops clubs in the future going into administration to ease debt then start up again in the same league on the same points, nothing.

The thing is us Livi fans accept this & fully expect this to happen, I just thought I'd make that clear incase the bigwigs decide not to apply punishment, Please don't start shreiking at us because of their decision!! To all of you, not just Raith1974, Okay?

[Stadio Delle Almondvale]

I think most of the problem regarding punishment is that the SFL don't really have any rules governing this situation. It all seems a little bit to vague. For that reason I can see us getting away scot free over this.

If the SFL are to emerge from this with any credibility, they must put in place firm, clear and concise rules regarding financial stability at clubs to include administration, insolvency, bad debt, players wage payments and so on.

That we have potentially emerged from this situation is one argument, that we can emerge and the rules stay the same is another.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

100 points!

20 or 100 same differance in the first div.

[jimbo]

As was I. That's why I know he is wrong. He is speaking about Martin Ritchie who came in and re-structured the debt. He did not allow one penny of it to be "re-structured" into non payment. We all know finances are difficult in Scottish football. It is Livingston's attempt to return to the well of non payment for a third time which is so unacceptable to us.

It just seems to be that this club more than any other has adopted non payment of debt as being an ok thing to do. I noticed on LL this morning someone saying that cutting players salaries will be next and given how parlous things are, "they won't be hard to deal with".

There is this callous inbred attitude amongst the Livvy support that now also see not honouring debts or existing contracts as acceptable regardless of the circumstances or the impact. It's just awful, and already at this early stage, jokers like CDE have shown just how short lived and disingenuous the contrition was.

My views can be interpreted as extreme. I don't mind that. I simply want to see the debate staying where I believe it should be.........on the appalling behaviour of LFC for 14 years, and in particular the mean spirited and morally bunkrupt shenanigans of the past six years.

Whether Livvy fans can in their heart of hearts choose to wash their hands of it all and claim it was nowt to do with them, is down to the individual. There seems to be a happy majority who take that stance.

Keane at that time was in a position to do anything he wanted. He was seen as a hero, and everyone at Almondvale aligned themselves with everything he did, and everything he said. That the support have been unable to muster organized resistance to what has been going on for years and years does not point to a support that would have launched any concerted effort to prevent scope creep when it came to club colours. Look at your amber shirts of old. That ain't the colour you play in now. These things can be changed by stealth. Black to bottle green can be achieved over a three strip change quite easily.........and that was where he was headed. Oh, and he didn't see the strip as either yellow or amber......he always referred to it as "gold". We all know why.

Duncan I fear you are a zealot and as such I sense that further discourse with you on this topic would be futile.

[WaffenThinMint]

14 years of cheating is entirely justifiable because the club has managed to out-perform Albion Rovers.

Terrific.

That was not my point. The point is that it is very easy to be holier-than-thou about not living beyond your means when the truth is you have no choice but to do so because no-one will invest in you or give you credit.

Many decades ago, there was a person who set up a shop in Brighton, which they swore would trade ethically, treat it's suppliers ethically, and not have anything to do with the big bad banks.

30 years, umpteen franchises, screwed over suppliers, and using products tested on rabbits later ("but hey, it's okay, because it's products that have been tested on rabbits decades ago and declared safe!" and their principles flushed down the toilet with last night's curry later, the Body Shop was sold for £652 million.

Could have been different...could have been so different if Anita Roddick hadn't taken out that bank loan for the second Body Shop six months after the first...

Business principles are an ideal - not a tenet of faith - and that even applies to football.

[SNECKSTAGGIE]

Agreed.

And we of you long ago – up to the same old tricks here as you did on the MAD boards, jumping in on a 'club going bust' threat to gloat under a veneer of sermons about 'financial integrity'

Who is "we"? I would suggest that Duncan's posts have been presented in a well thought argument style, where as you are just a twat!

[WaffenThinMint]

I think most of the problem regarding punishment is that the SFL don't really have any rules governing this situation....If the SFL are to emerge from this with any credibility, they must put in place firm, clear and concise rules regarding financial stability at clubs to include administration, insolvency, bad debt, players wage payments and so on.

Yes, and isn't it rather strange that the SFL don't?

They can hardly make the excuse of this being a novelty, can they?

Which again adds grist to the mill to those saying that it is high time that UEFA intervened and did the long overdue shakedown of Scottish club football it is long overdue, because the way it is run is rotten to the core.