Livingston - all the threads merged

[Ivo den Bieman]

Both the Scottish Tory and The Herald today carry articles pointing out that there's quite a bit of wriggle room left yet.

In one article, McGruther (finally) confirms that he will give Massone until the very last possible moment today, to transfer the shares. In the other, he argues that Livingston will go to the wall because of a technicality in the SFL rules (for league membership to be transferred from one company to another, the initial company must be solvent. because "Livi" are insolvent, this can't happen allowing MacDougall and Rankine to bypass Massone.)

The SFL have resolved to "keep an open mind" (gulp). They do give the impression that they *still* will do almost anything to keep Livingston in the league, in order to avoid the administrative chaos that will follow their demise.

I get the impression that those with polished dancing shoes aren't going to be putting them on, anytime today.

Here's the articles:

Scottish Tory- SFL "keep an open mind"

Herald- McGruther will give Massone until the last minute

[Guest Deewok's Bear Behind]

You are a very sad little man indeed - as far as I can see virtually every other Livi fan is finally pulling together - don't know how long it will ast but at least they are at the moment - you are still persuing your vandetta against the Trust.

Finally pulling together. To do what? To prod the corpse with a stick? Maybe, just maybe, what if the greatly derised MCL is right? The outcome is Livi are dead and when this is confirmed perhaps the penny will finally sink. If the Trust, in their backdoor methods added to the implosion and haven't been their to pick up the pieces, well, they have totally misread the situation at best, perhaps complete incompetence and in fact aided in the death of the club.

Am sick of all you livi fannies coming on here, month after month and squabbling. Well soon you won't be squabbling much longer, not on here anyway.

Massone has balled this up, but the Trust and the support have helped oil the wheels on the bogey as it flew oot the door.

You lot need to take a good look at yourselves

[Tom McB]

Code: Unfortunately Cappielow is a shitehole ground in a shitehole part of a shitehole town, and sadly for us, no supermarket gives a flying fcuk about building here, so we might as well forget about it, and buy old bits of Love Street to tart up Crappielow.

Life's a bitch.

I don't even know how to use code tags, plainly i'm not an old grammarian butty boy.

[Tonsilitis]

Tesco must have been right p*ssed off when Asda went and built their supermarket on the Dunkeld Road then.

With respect, I disagree with your theory. The crowds at McDiarmid are not exactly packing the stands out either and we're still here 20 years after the move with a decent looking balance sheet.

Thats where the St Johnstone board spent their money wisely. McDermid was set up in such a way as to be more or less self financing on an ongoing basis with a lot of non football related income. I am not sure that St Mirren have done the same at the Methadome and how they do long term will be interesting to see. In this respect St Johnstone, size for size are arguably the best run club in Scotland.

I would argue that it was not a windfall whatsoever (which denotes having money to burn), but rather an opportunity to become solvent and debt free. Since it happened the club (St Johnstone) has generated other income streams that prove profitable other than gate reciepts. Crucially, THIS is where others have fallen IMO.

Getting a one off payment enough to clear your debts and build a new self sustaining ground strikes me as a windfall in anyone's language. I don't grudge you it and am impressed by how its been used but surely you can't say it was not a windfall? It also means that your position is not comparable with clubs like Thistle or Morton who's grounds were not as fortuitously sited or with clubs like Motherwell and Kilmarnock who disasterously developed their traditional grounds from already stretched football resources.

Edit - Typo

[pozbaird]

I don't even know how to use code tags, plainly i'm not an old grammarian butty boy.

Code: 'Insert code box' is easy enough, but the type in it is too wee, so I couldnae' be ersed...

How's the Love Street end stand looking by the way? Still just a pile of steel rusting away, with no funds to even erect it yet?

Edited July 30, 2009 by pozbaird

[jay_7]

Finally pulling together. To do what? To prod the corpse with a stick? Maybe, just maybe, what if the greatly derised MCL is right? The outcome is Livi are dead and when this is confirmed perhaps the penny will finally sink. If the Trust, in their backdoor methods added to the implosion and haven't been their to pick up the pieces, well, they have totally misread the situation at best, perhaps complete incompetence and in fact aided in the death of the club.

Am sick of all you livi fannies coming on here, month after month and squabbling. Well soon you won't be squabbling much longer, not on here anyway.

Massone has balled this up, but the Trust and the support have helped oil the wheels on the bogey as it flew oot the door.

You lot need to take a good look at yourselves

You're really not quite grasping the situation here are you? In what way are the Trust responsible for WLC and now HMRC calling in the debt they're owed?

[Guest Flash]

Both the Scottish Tory and The Herald today carry articles pointing out that there's quite a bit of wriggle room left yet.

In one article, McGruther (finally) confirms that he will give Massone until the very last possible moment today, to transfer the shares. In the other, he argues that Livingston will go to the wall because of a technicality in the SFL rules (for league membership to be transferred from one company to another, the initial company must be solvent. because "Livi" are insolvent, this can't happen allowing MacDougall and Rankine to bypass Massone.)

The SFL have resolved to "keep an open mind" (gulp). They do give the impression that they *still* will do almost anything to keep Livingston in the league, in order to avoid the administrative chaos that will follow their demise.

I get the impression that those with polished dancing shoes aren't going to be putting them on, anytime today.

Here's the articles:

Scottish Tory- SFL "keep an open mind"

Herald- McGruther will give Massone until the last minute

The answer to that, then, is for the new owners to make sure Livi is solvent before they transfer the league membership. Or, if they make sure it is solvent, they won't need to transfer it. Perhaps that "technicality" is there in order to prevent an insolvent club from getting out of its obligations whilst still retaining their league membership?

[qpsnapper]

Southview, I posted an excerpt from Jim Ballantyne's initial Airdrie United application for membership to the SFL on this very subject a few pages back. Here's the excerpt that relates to the issue you raised:

"[T]he chairmen decided that to allow Airdrie United to emerge from the blackened ashes of Airdrieonians would be setting a dangerous precedent that might see cash-strapped football clubs disappear only to reappear under a different guise.

Donald said: "I think the potential precedent that may have been set may have been a major factor.

"There was certainly concern about that and I think it was certainly one element that went towards it.""[/b]

So the SFL were concerned about Airdrieonians transferring membership to Airdrie United way back in 2002. They can't change their position now...can they?

I would be astonished if they did, the SFL can't be seen to allow clubs that build up large levels of debt to fold and then instantly reform in an almost identical guise and allow them to continue in the SFL, if they did that most banks (and other businesses) wouldn't touch football clubs with a bargepole.

Not sure who taught you to read accounts but Rangers total disclosed debt in the 2008 accounts is £82m between current liabilities and long term liabilities. They are in some bother but you cannot say that they are insolvent because current liabilities exceed current assets. That is not a test of insolvency and what I think you are thinking of is that you can be insolvent if you cannot pay your debts as they fall due. On the link you gave there is not enough information to say whether they can or cannot.

Don't Rangers also give a rather generous valuation to Ibrox in their accounts?

[AND180Y]

You're really not quite grasping the situation here are you? In what way are the Trust responsible for WLC and now HMRC calling in the debt they're owed?

They aren't, how ever they are both complicit in the campaign to deprive the club of income and sponsors.

It appears that the trust have done absolutely fcuk all to raise funds to initiate a takeover preferring instead to wait on another sugar daddy to come along.

The council have said they will cut the rent by 2 thirds for the "new order" why was Massone, or indeed Flynn before him, not offered that deal?

FFS Neil Rankine is now trumpeted as a potential saviour, only a few weeks ago they wanted nothing to do with him, but now any old straw will do.

[AND180Y]

All this pish about protesting at Hampden etc. The league need to take into acount the majority of Scottish Football fans and not a few rabble rousers from a club that has never complied fiscally, morally or sportingly with it's obligations.

No rule changes, no second chances.

[Homer Thompson]

Both the Scottish Tory and The Herald today carry articles pointing out that there's quite a bit of wriggle room left yet.

In one article, McGruther (finally) confirms that he will give Massone until the very last possible moment today, to transfer the shares. In the other, he argues that Livingston will go to the wall because of a technicality in the SFL rules (for league membership to be transferred from one company to another, the initial company must be solvent. because "Livi" are insolvent, this can't happen allowing MacDougall and Rankine to bypass Massone.)

The SFL have resolved to "keep an open mind" (gulp). They do give the impression that they *still* will do almost anything to keep Livingston in the league, in order to avoid the administrative chaos that will follow their demise.

I get the impression that those with polished dancing shoes aren't going to be putting them on, anytime today.

Here's the articles:

Scottish Tory- SFL "keep an open mind"

Herald- McGruther will give Massone until the last minute

This quote from Massone is absolutely mind boggling

Massone said: "I am ready to transfer the wages. I am not interested in selling my shares.

We have people reading newspapers each day saying Angelo must go to save the club but this is not true. I believe I am the best person for this club. The league and committee will watch the fact that I have paid the players and staff on time.

"At the end of the day, we are not in administration. I think a sanction could be made tomorrow, maximum a fine, because tomorrow all the players will be paid on time. The meeting has been organised with the interim manager and the league, I don't know why it's an urgent meeting."

He doesnt know why its an urgent meeting? And he thinks they'll get away with a fine? :o

[pozbaird]

They aren't, how ever they are both complicit in the campaign to deprive the club of income and sponsors.

It appears that the trust have done absolutely fcuk all to raise funds to initiate a takeover preferring instead to wait on another sugar daddy to come along.

The council have said they will cut the rent by 2 thirds for the "new order" why was Massone, or indeed Flynn before him, not offered that deal?

FFS Neil Rankine is now trumpeted as a potential saviour, only a few weeks ago they wanted nothing to do with him, but now any old straw will do.

Why should they? I'm pretty sure West Lothian Council own premises that are rented out to businesses. I worked in Hamilton, in a South Lanarkshire Council Business Park, and my boss rented two units there. When the business got into trouble, firstly we weren't allowed to rack up unpaid rent debts, and secondly, we weren't allowed to rack up unpaid debts to the Inland Revenue. Thirdly, the Council didn't come knocking on our door offering a two-thirds rent reduction....

Fcuking Livingston have been dreadfully mis-managed for far too long. They have already been in administration for fcuk sake, and are currently being run by a complete cnut. Football clubs do indeed have an 'emotional' attatchment to them, but this fcuking mob have a 14 year history FFS - and have proved to be about as adept at running a manageable business as I would be flying the space shuttle....

Bullet. Eyes. Now.

Edited July 30, 2009 by pozbaird

[stuartcraig]

The SFL have resolved to "keep an open mind" (gulp). They do give the impression that they *still* will do almost anything to keep Livingston in the league, in order to avoid the administrative chaos that will follow their demise.

I'd actually prefer to see Livi survive for a number of reasons, but what flexibility do the league have? Are Livingston able to show that they'll have a squad and a compliant ground?

Stuart

[FrugalNory]

Getting a one off payment enough to clear your debts and build a new self sustaining ground strikes me as a windfall in anyone's language. I don't grudge you it and am impressed by how its been used but surely you can't say it was not a windfall?

Its semantics really but I see what your saying. In that sense the opportunity to clear our debts could be considered a windfall.

It also means that your position is not comparable with clubs like Thistle or Morton who's grounds were not as fortuitously sited or with clubs like Motherwell and Kilmarnock who disasterously developed their traditional grounds from already stretched football resources.

I would agree that a direct comparison is probably not applicable in the circumstances. However in the last twenty years since our "windfall" Killie, Gretna and Livie have all climbed into the top tier & attended cup finals by borrowing heavily rather than developing alternative sources of income to pay the bills. In turn, we spent a number of years in the wilderness trying to balance the books sometimes involving the sale of tangible assets. In that respect I think a comparison is valid.

[southview]

This quote from Massone is absolutely mind boggling

He doesnt know why its an urgent meeting? And he thinks they'll get away with a fine?

He is crazy and hasn't a clue as how serious this all is. An SFL fudge on this one would prove to him that he can do what the hell he likes.

[jimbo]

All this pish about protesting at Hampden etc. The league need to take into acount the majority of Scottish Football fans and not a few rabble rousers from a club that has never complied fiscally, morally or sportingly with it's obligations.

No rule changes, no second chances.

Now top of the list of posters I see Andy Boy. Somebody somewhere just has to have pissed you off at Livingston. There is no other explanation for the bile you spout at my club. Very nasty.

[Numbers]

I think Andy is saying what many who dont post on here are thinking.

So Jimbo, maybe you would like to tell everone, as a member of livis suppporters, what you think the SFL should do, why you think livi should be given a third chance, and how the club will be any different this time.

[pozbaird]

Now top of the list of posters I see Andy Boy. Somebody somewhere just has to have pissed you off at Livingston. There is no other explanation for the bile you spout at my club. Very nasty.

No-one at Livingston has pissed me off, but I agree with him - I look at clubs like East Fife and Dumbarton who have built decent stands, and are running title winning operations on a budget they can sustain - and if they got in trouble, I'd certainly help out with a pound or two in a supporters' collection bucket. Clubs like Gretna and Livingston deserve(d) all the bile that is spouted in their direction.... Is there enough sand in the world for Massone to bury his head in by the way?

[AND180Y]

Why should they? I'm pretty sure West Lothian Council own premises that are rented out to businesses. I worked in Hamilton, in a South Lanarkshire Council Business Park, and my boss rented two units there. When the business got into trouble, firstly we weren't allowed to rack up unpaid rent debts, and secondly, we weren't allowed to rack up unpaid debts to the Inland Revnue. Thirdly, the Council didn't come knocking on our door offering a two-thirds rent reduction....

I'm not sayin they should, I'd be raging if they did. But why offer it to the trust was all I was saying.

I actually have a mate (Livi fan for his sins) who rents commercial property from WL Council, he fell behind and owed them two months rent, no sympathy and a threat of eviction in two days not two bloody years!!

[pozbaird]

I'm not sayin they should, I'd be raging if they did. But why offer it to the trust was all I was saying.

I actually have a mate (Livi fan for his sins) who rents commercial property from WL Council, he fell behind and owed them two months rent, no sympathy and a threat of eviction in two days not two bloody years!!

Exactly mate. I've been there myself...