Livingston - all the threads merged

[southview]

Why do some people think the club can still be saved? Have I missed something? I have seen nothing attributed to the administrator basically saying that there is still time. As far as I can see, he gave the 12noon deadline and that has passed.

Even If Massone accepted the offer now, McGruther would be going to the SFL tomorrow afternoon, at best, with someone at "preferred bidder" status. I don't doubt for a minute that trust/McDougall partnership have some sort of plan in place but they can't activate anything until Massone clears off...which he isn't.

The question the SFL will ask will be "Can you fulfil the fixtures" to which McGruther will answer "no" before adding that liquidation has started. This issue alone has an affect on Livi's membership.

As I said earlier, the deadline yesterday was so that the rest of the day could be spent preparing for the SFL meeting and working on a business plan. Instead, McGruther had to sack people and begin the winding up process.

It would be outrageous beyond belief if the SFL turned around tomorrow and told McGruther to carry on for the time being. They simply can't do that, and if they did, they may as well chuck their rulebook into the fire.

It would also be setting a highly dangerous precedent allowing Livingston FC to be wound up with the league shares transferred to Livingston FC 2009. For starters, Airdrie fans would be raging with any move similar to this.

Massone's interview on the BBC is ridiculous. He clearly has no idea that he is not in control anymore and it has got me wondering as to how business is done in Italy? Is it really this casual?

I was a bit disappointed that no-one asked him: "If you want to save the club, why don't you pay off the taxman and the council?" but he still got a good going over. It's concerning that he thinks paying the players/staff wages would allow the club to continue running.

I'm gutted for the Livi fans who have supported this club passionately, I really am. But anyone thinking their is any hope is kidding themselves on. There is no time left, the SFL need to know today what the deal is and as things stand, McGruther can't ask for anything more than their mercy.

[ObserverFromAfar]

Only one person has signed the cheques at Almondvale this season and that's Angelo Massone.

Shurely shome mishtake... maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick here... but if he had been signing all the necessary cheques (with funds to honour them) then the current pickle would have been avoided?

Edited July 29, 2009 by ObserverFromAfar

[LLD]

Why do some people think the club can still be saved? Have I missed something? I have seen nothing attributed to the administrator basically saying that there is still time. As far as I can see, he gave the 12noon deadline and that has passed.

Even If Massone accepted the offer now, McGruther would be going to the SFL tomorrow afternoon, at best, with someone at "preferred bidder" status. I don't doubt for a minute that trust/McDougall partnership have some sort of plan in place but they can't activate anything until Massone clears off...which he isn't.

The question the SFL will ask will be "Can you fulfil the fixtures" to which McGruther will answer "no" before adding that liquidation has started. This issue alone has an affect on Livi's membership.

As I said earlier, the deadline yesterday was so that the rest of the day could be spent preparing for the SFL meeting and working on a business plan. Instead, McGruther had to sack people and begin the winding up process.

It would be outrageous beyond belief if the SFL turned around tomorrow and told McGruther to carry on for the time being. They simply can't do that, and if they did, they may as well chuck their rulebook into the fire.

It would also be setting a highly dangerous precedent allowing Livingston FC to be wound up with the league shares transferred to Livingston FC 2009. For starters, Airdrie fans would be raging with any move similar to this.

Massone's interview on the BBC is ridiculous. He clearly has no idea that he is not in control anymore and it has got me wondering as to how business is done in Italy? Is it really this casual?

I was a bit disappointed that no-one asked him: "If you want to save the club, why don't you pay off the taxman and the council?" but he still got a good going over. It's concerning that he thinks paying the players/staff wages would allow the club to continue running.

I'm gutted for the Livi fans who have supported this club passionately, I really am. But anyone thinking their is any hope is kidding themselves on. There is no time left, the SFL need to know today what the deal is and as things stand, McGruther can't ask for anything more than their mercy.

In all honesty, I don't see the SFL cutting us any slack in terms of transferring the registration, and to be quite honest that's the way it should be.

Our only hope is that Massone signs over his shares and the new owners are able to provide the SFL with the guarantee that we can fulfil fixtures.

I have more or less consigned myself to the club's demise but you never know.

[LLD]

Shurely shome mishtake... maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick here... but if he had been signing all the necessary cheques (with funds to honour them) then the current pickle would have been avoided?

Ach you know what I meant - he's had sole financial control all season. The huge losses are as a result of his poor / insane decisions not anyone else's.

[Jay Silverheels]

It would be outrageous beyond belief if the SFL turned around tomorrow and told McGruther to carry on for the time being. They simply can't do that, and if they did, they may as well chuck their rulebook into the fire.

It would also be setting a highly dangerous precedent allowing Livingston FC to be wound up with the league shares transferred to Livingston FC 2009. For starters, Airdrie fans would be raging with any move similar to this.

Southview, I posted an excerpt from Jim Ballantyne's initial Airdrie United application for membership to the SFL on this very subject a few pages back. Here's the excerpt that relates to the issue you raised:

"[T]he chairmen decided that to allow Airdrie United to emerge from the blackened ashes of Airdrieonians would be setting a dangerous precedent that might see cash-strapped football clubs disappear only to reappear under a different guise.

Donald said: "I think the potential precedent that may have been set may have been a major factor.

"There was certainly concern about that and I think it was certainly one element that went towards it.""[/b]

So the SFL were concerned about Airdrieonians transferring membership to Airdrie United way back in 2002. They can't change their position now...can they?

To play Devil's Advocate for Massone for a second, I think he got fucked over when he bought the club. He didn't do due dilligence when checking the club out, and inherited a far worse position that he expected. Of course, this was his own fault, but I think that he tried to paper over the cracks for far too long, and when push came to shove, his ego kicked in and he became something of a douchebag in denial.

[ObserverFromAfar]

Ach you know what I meant - he's had sole financial control all season. The huge losses are as a result of his poor / insane decisions not anyone else's.

I do.. apologies for the sarcasm. He does appear to be the last member of the 'consortium' standing. And the individual/collective shortcomings of that group are subjects you've personally been shouting

since last summer LLD.

All hypothetical - if the group hadn't turned up last summer, would Flynn have been in the same position now, or do you think the club may have closed 12 months ago, or some other outcome? Could it be that this was inevitable? Or if the Trust had come up with a proposal last summer, a different chapter would have been written this season?

[LLD]

I do.. apologies for the sarcasm. He does appear to be the last member of the 'consortium' standing. And the individual/collective shortcomings of that group are subjects you've personally been shouting

since last summer LLD.

All hypothetical - if the group hadn't turned up last summer, would Flynn have been in the same position now, or do you think the club may have closed 12 months ago, or some other outcome? Could it be that this was inevitable? Or if the Trust had come up with a proposal last summer, a different chapter would have been written this season?

Hard to say.

I think it is fair to say that Flynn needed to get out for the sake of his own finances.

There was a bid on the table other than the Italian one but it was a poorer deal for Flynn personally and that's ultimately why he 'sold' to them.

Had the other bid been successful I think the club would be in much better financial shape than it is today (not hard). How we would have faired on the park is another question entirely because it would have been run much more sustainably.

[flyingscot]

In saying that it is not a situation uncommon in Europe. Fiorentina are the most high profile 'bankrupt' to be reformed under a different name, and other clubs throughout the leagues have done similar- Switzerland had FC Lugano which went bust to re-appear as AC Lugano, Netherlands had FC Zwolle and Roda were in deep shit too.

The damage to Livingston FC pre-dates Angelo Massone. If the finger of blame is being pointed Dominic Keane and Pearse Flynn must also take blame. I mean that lottery winner put £4million through the books- and bankrupted himself after being sucked in. They took the business model as Geoff Brown said that never pays. Livingston can never sustain being a force in Scottish football and blowing money to come 3rd in the SPL and win cups.

The club has been into administration before (whilst sponsored by Intelligent Finance of course!) and should have learned its lesson then. To get into the red again and to such an extent that administration is required again is the sign that football simply isn't working there. Is it all bad management or can it really be sustained- would things be better if Livi accepted they can't afford D1 football as well and play in D2?

The club was in deep trouble before Massone walked in- indeed I don't think he understood fully what he was getting involved in, but that is his fault. In saying that Livingston's fans I think were so desperate to see the back of Pearse Flynn that anybody would have done- much like Hearts before Romanov rolled up.

In the end the players and staff are the ones that suffer most along with the fans (and taxpayers too!). Massone will brush his hands get a taxi to Edinburgh Airport and never be seen again. The players and staff will be left with mortgages and families on the dole. Sure some players and staff will get new jobs but youth boys may never play again. What ever you think of Livingston as a franchise club, I don't blame their fans that support them as a local team, and sad for them too- many will drift away from football altogether.

In the end clubs like St Mirren, Falkirk, St Johnstone have been largely sheltered from the mess the SPL and Premier League did by overspending. It might annoy our fans but a decade in D1 helped us and sure whilst we had to sell up and move, we paid our debts and built a new stadium without the taxpayer which the club owns entirely. Clubs like Killie, Dunfermline and Raith Rovers didn't escape and have had periods in lower leagues and large debts.

Angelo Massone might well be the man that has dealt the final blow to football in West Lothian, but the patient had been on life support for some time.

[LongTimeLurker]

Southview, I posted an excerpt from Jim Ballantyne's initial Airdrie United application for membership to the SFL on this very subject a few pages back. Here's the excerpt that relates to the issue you raised:

"[T]he chairmen decided that to allow Airdrie United to emerge from the blackened ashes of Airdrieonians would be setting a dangerous precedent that might see cash-strapped football clubs disappear only to reappear under a different guise.

The way back for Livingston in the short term would probably be to buy out a club like East Stirling and relocate them.

[bendan]

Does anyone know why the council acted just before the start of the season? If they had done this two months later the club would have at least been allowed to limp along to the end of the season, with more time to find a solution. As it is, there's no time, and they look f****d.

There also seems to be an issue with the ego of the interim manager (who is not the administrator, as they are not yet in administration).

[southview]

Southview, I posted an excerpt from Jim Ballantyne's initial Airdrie United application for membership to the SFL on this very subject a few pages back. Here's the excerpt that relates to the issue you raised:

"[T]he chairmen decided that to allow Airdrie United to emerge from the blackened ashes of Airdrieonians would be setting a dangerous precedent that might see cash-strapped football clubs disappear only to reappear under a different guise.

Donald said: "I think the potential precedent that may have been set may have been a major factor.

"There was certainly concern about that and I think it was certainly one element that went towards it.""[/b]

So the SFL were concerned about Airdrieonians transferring membership to Airdrie United way back in 2002. They can't change their position now...can they?

To play Devil's Advocate for Massone for a second, I think he got fucked over when he bought the club. He didn't do due dilligence when checking the club out, and inherited a far worse position that he expected. Of course, this was his own fault, but I think that he tried to paper over the cracks for far too long, and when push came to shove, his ego kicked in and he became something of a douchebag in denial.

Well that will be that then. Unless the SFL are happy for this shambles to carry on Livingston will have their membership withdrawn this afternoon. You can't allow Livi to save themselves by transferring shares to Livingston FC 2009 (I'm not saying that is what Livi/McGruther has in mind) having denied Airdrie the exact same lifeline seven years ago.

If that happened, what would be stopping Stirling Albion and Clyde going down a similar route to wash their hands of debt and start afresh? Or any other club for that matter?

The SFL are in a difficult position today as whatever decision they make is going to have a major impact on a number of other clubs. I know some people ask what the League could have done, but the current position shows that something had to be done, even if it was just devising a contingency plan that was ready to go when Livi went bust.

Massone's comments in the papers today make me sick. He is an absolute a*se and has no concept of how things operate over here. That he thinks he can hand McGruther £60k to pay the wages and then say "he can run the club for me until August 18" shows that he is in Lunaticville.

If Flynn is to be believed, the debt of the club when he left was £287k, which is why Massone got the club for a £1. I don't think Massone has come in blind. He had David Hay in there as well and he would have known to some degree what the score was.

McGruther says that even if Massone sold now, the "damage could be limited". Interesting choice of words because that hints that the early stages of liquidation are already in process, as he said they would be after noon deadline if Massone refused offer.

It means McGruther would have to tell SFL that (Livi's membership ceases to exist) but his words suggest they "might" have time to pull back. I could be wrong but that's the impression I get from it all.

[Guest Flash]

Even If Massone accepted the offer now, McGruther would be going to the SFL tomorrow afternoon, at best, with someone at "preferred bidder" status. I don't doubt for a minute that trust/McDougall partnership have some sort of plan in place but they can't activate anything until Massone clears off...which he isn't.

The question the SFL will ask will be "Can you fulfil the fixtures" to which McGruther will answer "no" before adding that liquidation has started. This issue alone has an affect on Livi's membership.

As I said earlier, the deadline yesterday was so that the rest of the day could be spent preparing for the SFL meeting and working on a business plan. Instead, McGruther had to sack people and begin the winding up process.

You may well be right, but it is possible that the business plan etc had already been drawn up, in fact everything could be in place and all that has to happen is for the parties to the deal to sign the papers. I'm not arguing that the steps taken so far won't affect Livi's status, but it may still be possible for something to happen before the meeting with the SFL.

[Guest penelope pitstop]

Au contraire aussi

In my opinion they weren't doing their best to save the club, they were doing their best to take it over. They colluded with the council and encouraged sponsors to hold back their support until the coup took place.

If they had put effort into steering Massone onto the correct path then we might be in a better position. They could have tried to purchase more shares with the money they have but they didn't. Why did the council agree to slash the rent by £100k a year for the "Trust" and not offer the same deal to Massone when they knew he was struggling ?

Massone is as mad as a bag of weasels but he was up against it for months. e.g. A "Trust" business plan which was designed to kick in after administration and WLC kicked off that process as planned.

Here's a post from Liviloins tonight -

I have remained away from the Forums for some time now, one because of work commitments and two because I was tired of all of the bickering.

Today we have reached the conclusion of a mutually assured destruction path that Massone and the Trust equally relished.

Look through these threads and there are loads of postings warning about Massone, don't give him (you mean the club) any money. We have a plan when it comes to Administration again from the Trust.

From Massone, it won't be Administration it will be Liquidation

Well Mr Massone and the Trust you combined intransigence has killed the club that I have supported since they came to Livingston. It is a sad day; I blame both parties in equal measure.

Where is the great Trust plan, surely it needs to be unveiled now, as for tomorrows meeting - the horses have bolted - you are wasting your time.

Sad, no very sad and disillusioned Livi fan

You are a very sad little man indeed - as far as I can see virtually every other Livi fan is finally pulling together - don't know how long it will ast but at least they are at the moment - you are still persuing your vandetta against the Trust.

[MCL]

You are a very sad little man indeed - as far as I can see virtually every other Livi fan is finally pulling together - don't know how long it will ast but at least they are at the moment - you are still persuing your vandetta against the Trust.

Don't really give a shit what you think, to be honest. There was a thread on Liviloins last night with a few of the posters saying much the same as the one I quoted above. The thread has now been deleted by the Nazis in charge. Free speech not welcome over there ?

The "Trust" are not innocent in all of this. They pursued an agenda and the result is the club might disappear. Their council lacky Peter Johnstone has gone awfully quiet now.

[jimbo]

Don't really give a shit what you think, to be honest. There was a thread on Liviloins last night with a few of the posters saying much the same as the one I quoted above. The thread has now been deleted by the Nazis in charge. Free speech not welcome over there ?

The "Trust" are not innocent in all of this. They pursued an agenda and the result is the club might disappear. Their council lacky Peter Johnstone has gone awfully quiet now.

If the council hadn't pulled the plug HMRC would have so it's all academic. Maybe the Trust were in collusion with them too.

[Tonsilitis]

I'd echo everything NorthBank has said. Several years ago Geoff Brown said, effectively, that Livingston were heading for trouble. He said the same about Gretna. Both times he was slated and branded as being jealous. Both times he was entirely correct. St Johnstone and St Mirren supporters are lucky to support well run clubs, and I have no doubt that in time that will pay huge dividends for both. At the very least, they'll be the two who aren't being chased to the death by the banks in the way that Killie and Clyde probably will be in the very near future.

There is a common factor with St Johnstone and St Mirren called Tesco. Both clubs were fortunate to be the beneficiaries of the accident of geography that saw their traditional grounds in a location attractive to a supermarket. In the case of St Johnstone, they also benefited from the ground upon which McDermid Park stands being donated to them.

Its the footballing equivalent of winning the lottery but in that context though, I agree that both clubs have been well managed and have used their respective windfalls wisely.

Falkirk and Hamilton have had similar windfalls and so to did Stirling but in the latter case, the size of their core support was not enough to make it count long term.

[jay_7]

Don't really give a shit what you think, to be honest. There was a thread on Liviloins last night with a few of the posters saying much the same as the one I quoted above. The thread has now been deleted by the Nazis in charge. Free speech not welcome over there ?

The "Trust" are not innocent in all of this. They pursued an agenda and the result is the club might disappear. Their council lacky Peter Johnstone has gone awfully quiet now.

Let me get this straight...

The fact that the club are now being chased for debts by HMRC and WLC is in fact... the Trusts fault? Get a grip

[pozbaird]

There is a common factor with St Johnstone and St Mirren called Tesco. Both clubs were fortunate to be the beneficiaries of the accident of geography that saw their traditional grounds in a location attractive to a supermarket. In the case of St Johnstone, they also benefited from the ground upon which McDermid Park stands being donated to them.

Its the footballing equivalent of winning the lottery but in that context though, I agree that both clubs have been well managed and have used their respective windfalls wisely.

Falkirk and Hamilton have had similar windfalls and so to did Stirling but in the latter case, the size of their core support was not enough to make it count long term.

Code: Unfortunately Cappielow is a shitehole ground in a shitehole part of a shitehole town, and sadly for us, no supermarket gives a flying fcuk about building here, so we might as well forget about it, and buy old bits of Love Street to tart up Crappielow.

Life's a bitch.

[FrugalNory]

There is a common factor with St Johnstone and St Mirren called Tesco. Both clubs were fortunate to be the beneficiaries of the accident of geography that saw their traditional grounds in a location attractive to a supermarket. In the case of St Johnstone, they also benefited from the ground upon which McDermid Park stands being donated to them.

Tesco must have been right p*ssed off when Asda went and built their supermarket on the Dunkeld Road then.

Its the footballing equivalent of winning the lottery but in that context though, I agree that both clubs have been well managed and have used their respective windfalls wisely.

Falkirk and Hamilton have had similar windfalls and so to did Stirling but in the latter case, the size of their core support was not enough to make it count long term.

With respect, I disagree with your theory. The crowds at McDiarmid are not exactly packing the stands out either and we're still here 20 years after the move with a decent looking balance sheet.

I would argue that it was not a windfall whatsoever (which denotes having money to burn), but rather an opportunity to become solvent and debt free. Since it happened the club (St Johnstone) has generated other income streams that prove profitable other than gate reciepts. Crucially, THIS is where others have fallen IMO.

Edit - Typo

Edited July 30, 2009 by FrugalNory

[Tonsilitis]

Not sure where you got those figures from, but the latest set of annual accounts of each club show Rangers have a total debt of £36m and Celtic's is £44m (total £80m). Both are insolvent because current assets don't cover current liabilities.

http://www.celticfc.net/NetFrame_Client/1_...da-e92d3c112289

http://www.investegate.co.uk/Article.aspx?...0916140000PF32D

Not sure who taught you to read accounts but Rangers total disclosed debt in the 2008 accounts is £82m between current liabilities and long term liabilities. They are in some bother but you cannot say that they are insolvent because current liabilities exceed current assets. That is not a test of insolvency and what I think you are thinking of is that you can be insolvent if you cannot pay your debts as they fall due. On the link you gave there is not enough information to say whether they can or cannot.

Celtic's total debt is £5m in current liabilities and £15m in long term. Of the long term, £3m relates to convertible preference shares which is not a real debt in the sense that it is unlikely ever to be called upon. They have £8m in the bank plus another £8m owed to them. I would say (regrettably) that Celtics balance sheet is pretty healthy.

On the other hand Rangers are skint so we can all keep our fingers crossed.