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Livingston - all the threads merged

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Not an ir-retrievable situation but they need to face upto the circumstances and take action, personally I wouldn't be too worried.

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I don't know where the sentiment comes from that the Inland Revenue have greater power with regards to debt owed by football clubs. Since 2002, they are no longer known as what was classed as a 'preferential creditor'. Instead, they have the same legal clout as an ordinary creditor, akin to those who are allegedly owed money as reported by the papers.

If the story is true, then they would be subject to the same legal process as any other creditor. And if the club "went to the wall" as is said, they'd either get the grand sum of bugger all for their troubles, or x amount of pence in the pound from a CVA.

Simply put, do your bloody homework, Gary Ralston.

I'm pretty sure he did his homework. Nowhere in the article does he state that HMRC have 'preferential creditor' status so you must have imagined that comment.

As a small creditor allegedly (in your words :rolleyes: ) owed money, I can apply for a winding up order the same as any other creditor who is owed money but winding up would be the last resort because, as you say, we would get next to nothing.

It has been pointed out previously that there are more than my company treading the legal route so how do you know HMRC isn't one of them and this is the next step for them?

As you are an insider at the club, can you tell us what has happened to the other two gentlemen who were part of the takeover ? Sources claim that they buggered off as soon as it became clear the mess Livi were in.

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I don't know where the sentiment comes from that the Inland Revenue have greater power with regards to debt owed by football clubs. Since 2002, they are no longer known as what was classed as a 'preferential creditor'. Instead, they have the same legal clout as an ordinary creditor, akin to those who are allegedly owed money as reported by the papers.

If the story is true, then they would be subject to the same legal process as any other creditor. And if the club "went to the wall" as is said, they'd either get the grand sum of bugger all for their troubles, or x amount of pence in the pound from a CVA.

Simply put, do your bloody homework, Gary Ralston.

You should be embarrassed at this feeble attempt to try and deflect attention from the central point which is that LFC is being mismanaged into oblivion.

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The reality is that the Inland Revenue are a creditor in virtually every company failure and unlike most other creditors they know exactly what the score is. They put more companies into liquidation than anyone else in the UK and sentiment will not come into it.

If Livi go for an administration order, that will be the third time in 10? years. That is really taking the corporate p1ss and I suspect they would have a tough time convincing the court (who say yes or no to admin applications) that an admin order is appropriate. If its not then its liquidation and curtains for the club.

The league would also take a tough stance and there's a good chance that if they go into admin again that they will be relegated straight to the third division. At the very least there will be the usual 10 point deduction

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I'd agree with VI - after their first few mental years where they attracted a lot of criticism, Livi have settled down as a decent First Division team - good stadium, decent team, good youth policy. Hopefully they'll get through this.

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This is all horribly reminiscent of Airdrie's situation in 2002. Other fans are laughing and joking about it, but until your club's been in that situation, you can't possibly know what it feels like. When word came through that it was game over for Airdrieonians... well, I wouldn't wish that feeling on my worst enemy.

I really feel for you Livi fans, and I hope you can find your way out of this mess, but it's looking ominous.

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Unlike a few others, I wouldn't like to see Livi go to the wall, I really hope this can galvanise the fanbase and serious questions are asked.

The Livingston fanbase have by and large shown themselves for years to be unable or unwilling to ask tough questions of their club's custodians. This latest drama is no exception - indeed the most vocal opponents are those who have a financial stake in the matter.

IF Livingston go bust the apathy and myopia of the fanbase will be a contributing factor, and a fairly massive one at that. I don't think a single other club in this division has such a passive fanbase when it comes to chancers running the club. Dundee, maybe, but I think even they've learned their lessons.

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The Livingston fanbase have by and large shown themselves for years to be unable or unwilling to ask tough questions of their club's custodians. This latest drama is no exception - indeed the most vocal opponents are those who have a financial stake in the matter.

IF Livingston go bust the apathy and myopia of the fanbase will be a contributing factor, and a fairly massive one at that. I don't think a single other club in this division has such a passive fanbase when it comes to chancers running the club. Dundee, maybe, but I think even they've learned their lessons.

Its sad to say it but you are spot on.

Having said that its not too late for the Livi support to get together and do something.

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Its sad to say it but you are spot on.

Having said that its not too late for the Livi support to get together and do something.

As much as I don't like Livingston, I actually agree. To see any club die because of a guy who wilfully won't pay the bills is utterly dreadful.

It is absolutely imperative that the fans create a united front, though, and I don't know if that's going to happen.

Basically Livingston need more fans like MCL to take a vocal stand, and doughfaces like Charles Darwin Esq. should be marginalised. They will be the death of Livingston FC if they are allowed to shape the discourse.

Edited by Swampy

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Its sad to say it but you are spot on.

Having said that its not too late for the Livi support to get together and do something.

Exactly. We've been through the bad times too and come extremely close to the wire, and the sad thing is I think if it happened at the moment at Firhill the same sort of apathy could set in. I think it's a general theme endemic in Scottish football where there just isn't the same loyality to your club that there was in years gone by for whatever reason, and sadly Livi are probably more likely to suffer from that than most.

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It's looking more and more like Livi are on the brink which is entirely consistent with what I've been hearing elsewhere.

I've no strong feelings about Livi one way or the other but one thing that strikes me is that their demise spells bad news for the rest of the First Division. Less clubs means fewer matches and, therefore, less income.

Take the club I support as an example. Our last home game was on November 8th. We are due to play Livingston at Firhill on Saturday. Now imagine that Livi went tits up before Saturday and couldn't fulfil the fixture. We don't have another scheduled home game until December 13th. That's over a month with no cash, aside from whatever share of the gate we get from the cup tie with Stirling, coming in. That's bound to have a negative impact on cash flow.

Now Livi, no matter how serious their present predicament is, won't go bust before Saturday (I wouldn't be looking too far beyond that to be honest) and if they did the lack of gate receipts for us wouldn't threaten us but it wouldn't exactly make things any easier either. Livi go bust and ever other First Division club is looking at a shortfall in the budget they set at the start of the season. Those who have still to play them twice at home would be hit the most.

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Exactly. We've been through the bad times too and come extremely close to the wire, and the sad thing is I think if it happened at the moment at Firhill the same sort of apathy could set in. I think it's a general theme endemic in Scottish football where there just isn't the same loyality to your club that there was in years gone by for whatever reason, and sadly Livi are probably more likely to suffer from that than most.

I think it's because this "X on the verge of bankruptcy" story is so common now. Just off the top of my head I can think of, in the last few years: Dundee, Kilmarnock, Livingston, Dunfermline, Partick... there will be others, too. People might think it's a cry of wolf.

In Livingston's case, though, the situation is grave, and the docile fanbase is doing nothing.

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The board really need to make a statement/take action before this implodes and a creditor gets itchy feet and tries to get in first. First in reaps the rewards.

Edited by AND180Y

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HMRC has been taking an increasinlgy agressive approach to the collection of tax since they lost their preferential creditor status in 1992.

In 2006 HMRC were responsible for 58 per cent of petitions for the winding up of companies – compared to 42 per cent in 2001.

Edited by MacWatt

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HMRC has been taking an increasinlgy agressive approach to the collection of tax since they lost their preferential creditor status in 1992.

In 2006 HMRC were responsible for 58 per cent of petitions for the winding up of companies – compared to 42 per cent in 2001.

They wind up roughly 50 companies a week in England.

However it is a "last resort", their modus operandi is to protect the revenue at all costs, noone wins when a company folds.

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Haven't we just put in a new kitchen recently..?

I'm guessing he aint paid for that either. It,s a shame when any club gets in the shite financially and I would hate to see Livi go bump but the silence coming from the club is very ominous. If the story's a pile of shite, then the chairman has got to come out and say so right now. The fact that he's staying quiet speaks louder than words I'm afraid.

One of the henchmen speaks...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/7740229.stm

Former chief executive Vivien Kyles has confirmed that she resigned from the Livingston board on Tuesday.

This is not a good sign either......

If he is lying, he's gonna look a right fucking Charlie

On a slightly connected note, I'm sure Geoff Broon would give you a hundred thousand for McKay, Griffiths and McPake.... ;)

Edited by The ghost of Jim Morton

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Had a look at their accounts for 2007, only 1.1 million in debt then.

A few small shareholders that will lose out though, again :rolleyes: ;

Priniciple Shareholders: Type Of Share No. of Shares Value %age

Lionheart Group Ltd ORD 1,123,216 1,123,216.00 94.00

Mr Walter Hay ORD 20,700 20,700.00 2.00

Livi For Life ORD 12,000 12,000.00 1.00

Mr Peter W Turnbull ORD 7,535 7,535.00 1.00

Mr James Kilday ORD 3,065 3,065.00 0.00

Mr William Robertson ORD 2,300 2,300.00 0.00

Mr Martin James Hay ORD 2,205 2,205.00 0.00

Mr George B Shearer ORD 1,500 1,500.00 0.00

Mr Thomas Thomson ORD 1,500 1,500.00 0.00

Mr John L Bain ORD 1,038 1,038.00 0.00

I hope they aint paying all those directors, 5 Italians :rolleyes: plus Ms Kyles.

Edited by AND180Y

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