Livingston - all the threads merged

[The Wrong Car]

I think the main problem with that is that the onus is on the individual stewards and volunteer ticketing staff. A number of the stewards kept moving away from the issues, leaving the younger stewards to deal with the problem of 10-30 supporters in a section. .

While there will be a loss, Livi already accommodate 8 thousand away fans at these games. At some point the development of our own fan base has to take priority. When we first came into the Premiership these games were probably seen as a cash grab (given most lower league clubs would be happy with a payday cup game against these teams when in the lower leagues) However we're now 5 seasons on, and a fairly established Premiership club. There's no point giving tickets away, improving the media output and general awareness of Livi in the local area if there's 3 or 4 home games that are as unappealing as Saturday's game. 

I'd like to see some form of scheme that allows genuine fans who want a ticket to buddy up with a season ticket holder, especially given the cost of living hampering some people's ability to buy a season ticket, but overall the statement hits the mark for me. 

[EdinburghLivi]

I saw a few Livi fans on the Facebook page saying they were no longer season ticket holders and that the new process would make things a bit more difficult for them. I did see the suggestion elsewhere of a loyalty system which would probably resolve that problem for next season, if we're still in the league.

Something like buy tickets for two/three non old firm home games then you can buy old firm home tickets as well. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by EdinburghLivi

[Guest]

Applying the new measure to Celtic matches isn't merited as their fans haven't done what the Rangers fans did last Saturday. Then with Rangers fans, they're especially buoyant and galvanised just now after their team's recent Europa League final. By the time we play them at home again early next year, their season might've not gone all that well translating into their fan numbers being down. This was hopefully a one-off.

[The Wrong Car]

As much as I agree that Saturday was a perfect storm (first game of season, easy online booking of specific seats), it's probably easier for the club to class all Category A games that sell out (i.e Rangers and Celtic) than differentiate between the two. 

The Martindale stuff since Saturday is tedious enough without us indulging a debate between the Old Firm on how Livi treat them, although it did lead me to the Celtic Blog which linked Martindale's post-match press conference to characters in Shakepeare's Julius Caesar which was unexpected

[Cptn Hooch]

3 hours ago, LiviLion said:

No chance the club will be cancelling season tickets.

 

If a season ticket holder brings in an opposition supporter and they cause trouble then there very well could be repercussions such as stadium bans etc...however, I would imagine that would be the very last resort after a number of offences or the trouble being serious.

 

I can't see it hurting the Livi supporters who only attend the odd game as there will be plenty of season ticket holders willing to "vouch for them" in a way. The club have made the right move IMO and it once again shows that the fans are being listened to by the current regime which can only be a good thing

[ol1vercloff]

2 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

Applying the new measure to Celtic matches isn't merited as their fans haven't done what the Rangers fans did last Saturday. Then with Rangers fans, they're especially buoyant and galvanised just now after their team's recent Europa League final. By the time we play them at home again early next year, their season might've not gone all that well translating into their fan numbers being down. This was hopefully a one-off.

Celtic fans have absolutely infiltrated the home end and celebrated when their team has scored in the past.  How much of a nuisance they were compared to other supporters of other clubs is a matter of opinion.  I agree with the club's approach to limit the purchase of home end tickets when away fans are going to be given the other three stands.  We'll definitely still see away fans in the home end in the future though, but I'm hoping that our fellow supporters will actively point out away fans to stewards and police.

Edited August 3, 2022 by ol1vercloff

[ATLIS]

2 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

Applying the new measure to Celtic matches isn't merited as their fans haven't done what the Rangers fans did last Saturday. Then with Rangers fans, they're especially buoyant and galvanised just now after their team's recent Europa League final. By the time we play them at home again early next year, their season might've not gone all that well translating into their fan numbers being down. This was hopefully a one-off.

Celtic fans are just as bad, the more this is allowed to continue the more brazen each set of fans will become 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, ol1vercloff said:

Celtic fans have absolutely infiltrated the home end and celebrated when their team has scored in the past.

What happened on Saturday wasn't a couple of rogue away fans being disrespectful. The Rangers congregation of all men in front of C3 was deliberate to try and intimidate the noisy section of the Livi support into silence. It was coordinated and malicious. 

 

15 minutes ago, ol1vercloff said:

How much of a nuisance they were compared to other supporters of other clubs is a matter of opinion.

It's really not. Objectively, nothing like last Saturday has happened before at a Livi home match. 

 

17 minutes ago, ol1vercloff said:

We'll definitely still see away fans in the home end in the future though, but I'm hoping that our fellow supporters will actively point out away fans to stewards and police in the future.

We don't want someone booted just for being an Aberdeen, Motherwell, Killie fan or whoever and sitting in the Livi end. They could be there with a Livi supporting pal or something. There's a huge gulf between someone quietly watching the match and what those Rangers fans did last Saturday.

[ol1vercloff]

3 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

What happened on Saturday wasn't a couple of rogue away fans being disrespectful. The Rangers congregation of all men in front of C3 was deliberate to try and intimidate the noisy section of the Livi support into silence. It was coordinated and malicious. 

 

It's really not. Objectively, nothing like last Saturday has happened before at a Livi home match. 

 

We don't want someone booted just for being an Aberdeen, Motherwell, Killie fan or whoever and sitting in the Livi end. They could be there with a Livi supporting pal or something. There's a huge gulf between someone quietly watching the match and what those Rangers fans did last Saturday.

It seems like you have a real hatred for Rangers specifically.  Fair do's.  But personally, I would want to see any away supporter ejected from the home end, regardless of whether they were sitting quietly or happy slapping my gran.  We need segregation at football in this country because we can't be trusted to mingle for a couple of hours on a Saturday.

[The Wrong Car]

I think there's a difference between fans occasionally sitting in a rival team's home end on the odd occasion, and blockbooking an entire row so you can turn it into an away section. 

As much as Saturday may have been a freak event, the alternative of making the club decide on a game-by game basis when this is invoked seems impossible when it essentially comes down to the other team's form/relative importance of the game. 

7 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

We don't want someone booted just for being an Aberdeen, Motherwell, Killie fan or whoever and sitting in the Livi end. They could be there with a Livi supporting pal or something. There's a huge gulf between someone quietly watching the match and what those Rangers fans did last Saturday.

 I'd agree with that, however I'd hope common sense would apply in this case and nobody would really care

[Cptn Hooch]

3 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

Applying the new measure to Celtic matches isn't merited as their fans haven't done what the Rangers fans did last Saturday. Then with Rangers fans, they're especially buoyant and galvanised just now after their team's recent Europa League final. By the time we play them at home again early next year, their season might've not gone all that well translating into their fan numbers being down. This was hopefully a one-off.

In fairness Celtic fans haven't had much to cheer about at the spaghettihad since we came back up

 

[Guest]

Wires have gotten crossed here. My previous two comments aren't about personal Celtic/Rangers preference. It's this:

The new policy will penalise pay-at-the-gate Livi fans. Very few,  but those very few are still a loss. Therefore, it'd be best to apply the new policy to as few matches as possible. That was my thinking.

Others here are instead comfortable with the policy being applied more widely as they're taking a "better to be safe than sorry" attitude regarding a possible repeat of last Saturday's problem. A valid view and as The Wrong Car points out, the most feasible option and what's likely going to happen.

[The Wrong Car]

1 minute ago, FreedomFarter said:

Wires have gotten crossed here. My previous two comments aren't about personal Celtic/Rangers preference. It's this:

The new policy will penalise pay-at-the-gate Livi fans. Very few,  but those very few are still a loss. Therefore, it'd be best to apply the new policy to as few matches as possible. That was my thinking.

Others here are instead comfortable with the policy being applied more widely as they're taking a "better to be safe than sorry" attitude regarding a possible repeat of last Saturday's problem. A valid view and as The Wrong Car points out, the most feasible option and what's likely going to happen.

A fair point, the next stage would be some form of multi-game option or ticket exchange/matchup scheme which shouldn't be too hard. 

[Cptn Hooch]

8 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

Wires have gotten crossed here. My previous two comments aren't about personal Celtic/Rangers preference. It's this:

The new policy will penalise pay-at-the-gate Livi fans. Very few,  but those very few are still a loss. Therefore, it'd be best to apply the new policy to as few matches as possible. That was my thinking.

Others here are instead comfortable with the policy being applied more widely as they're taking a "better to be safe than sorry" attitude regarding a possible repeat of last Saturday's problem. A valid view and as The Wrong Car points out, the most feasible option and what's likely going to happen.

The club appear to be saying only Cat A games will be affected...this will only be the games against rangers and celtic. I'd imagine there will be a revised rule next season when they are able to update season ticket T&Cs. I don't get where people are seeing Livi fans being penalised...i'm not a season ticket holder but if I wished to attend one of the cat A games then I'd try get in touch with a season ticket holder to help, i'm sure there will be plenty of people willing to help. I noticed plenty of posts from Livi fans who were unable to attend at the weekend due to it being a sell out. We might not fully sell out but I don't think the lost revenue will be as much as people are quoting. It may even encourage some of the people who avoid those games to come along, I've seen even season ticket holders saying they don't attend due to the safety issue. If fan safety can be ensured then I think we'll see the positives in the long run

[ATLIS]

Just now, Cptn Hooch said:

The club appear to be saying only Cat A games will be affected...this will only be the games against rangers and celtic. I'd imagine there will be a revised rule next season when they are able to update season ticket T&Cs. I don't get where people are seeing Livi fans being penalised...i'm not a season ticket holder but if I wished to attend one of the cat A games then I'd try get in touch with a season ticket holder to help, i'm sure there will be plenty of people willing to help. I noticed plenty of posts from Livi fans who were unable to attend at the weekend due to it being a sell out. We might not fully sell out but I don't think the lost revenue will be as much as people are quoting. It may even encourage some of the people who avoid those games to come along, I've seen even season ticket holders saying they don't attend due to the safety issue. If fan safety can be ensured then I think we'll see the positives in the long run

A lot of it is coming from the Rangers fans on twitter responding that they bought tickets off of Livi fans. So this situation could just happen again in the future if Livi fans do just buy tickets to sell. In that even the Livi season ticket holders should be penalised for that. 

[Cptn Hooch]

4 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

A lot of it is coming from the Rangers fans on twitter responding that they bought tickets off of Livi fans. So this situation could just happen again in the future if Livi fans do just buy tickets to sell. In that even the Livi season ticket holders should be penalised for that. 

that's not what I meant....there's people saying they only attend the odd game and are being penalised for not being season ticket holders. I agree with the penalties for season ticket holders selling to away fans who then cause trouble. What happened at the weekend is different to me taking my mate who supports rangers to the Livi game....the block in front of C3 can only happen with planning and if any season ticket holder had helped with that then they should be punished

[Guest]

It will've been third party ticket touts who bought and sold the tickets. When ticketing is all done online, "professional" touts jump in. They monitor football matches and other events for potential sell-outs.

Edit: The new policy will prevent this. Another benefit to it.

Edited August 3, 2022 by FreedomFarter

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Cptn Hooch said:

I don't get where people are seeing Livi fans being penalised...i'm not a season ticket holder but if I wished to attend one of the cat A games then I'd try get in touch with a season ticket holder to help, i'm sure there will be plenty of people willing to help.

These hypothetical Livi fans that don't have any pals who are season ticket holders might not exist, you're right. Regardless, The Wrong Car actually changed my mind with his replies. Deciding on the fly to enforce the new policy for a specific match isn't feasible. A policy like this needs established parameters from the offset and "all category A matches" is the most reasonable line to draw.

[thruthenight]

2 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

These hypothetical Livi fans that don't have any pals who are season ticket holders might not exist, you're right. Regardless, The Wrong Car actually changed my mind with his replies. Deciding on the fly to enforce the new policy for a specific match isn't feasible. A policy like this needs established parameters from the offset and "all category A matches" is the most reasonable line to draw.

They definitely exist, I'm one of them. Moved out of Livi nearly a decade ago, but still manage to make 5/6 games a season whenever I'm back. If one of those ends up being a Celtic/Rangers home game, I'm fucked.

Well, theoretically fucked. I know a couple of season ticket holders who I haven't spoken to since I left that I'm sure would sort me out if I got in touch out of the blue. Failing that, I've posted on enough Livi groups over time, I'm sure someone would take pity on me. Either that or I've emailed the club often enough over the years to buy stuff/sort out other arrangements, I'm sure if I contacted the right person at the club we could make it happen.

Bit of a pain in the ass that might discourage me from going, but I'm sure I'd still make it if I was determined. Personally, I think this policy is overkill, but they were never going to please everyone. Let's give it a go for the rest of the season and see how things work out. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by thruthenight

[LIVIFOREVER]

9 hours ago, Durnford said:

losing 1500 seats for at least 3 old firm games comes to almost £120,000. That's a lot of money to lose in a season. Bearing in mind that's a true loss; we've already paid out for all the security etc for matchday anyway.

What really gets me is they were searching about 70% of fans entering the stadium but still failed to notice so many wearing rangers tops when trying to enter the West Stand. I'm not blaming the steward here; he was on his own and even if he rejected one away fan; that person would simply cover up and go to the other entrance.

The tickets should have had a clear message on it that the stand was for home supporters only and away supporters would be refused admission or ejected from the ground subsequently. This is particularly important where tickets are being sold by ticket touts of which there were at least a dozen around Macarthur Glen and on Bubble hill. Ideally online sales will cut a lot of that out; I'm not sure even the most gullible will pay £90 for an internet screen print out.

I didn't really see much in the way of problems on Saturday; there were a few young boys with rangers tops on but they were well behaved; there was a section down the bottom of C3 which had about 20 - 30 individuals. They were escorted out by half time but I'm not sure why it took so long  were they simply being moved to the North stand? Really the reaction SHOULD have been immediate; anyone whose there who shouldn't be or doesn't know how to behave is escorted out immediately - none of this wait until half time nonsense.

The biggest problem seems to be the inclusion of hospitality right in the middle of the West Stand. Noisy drunken fans shouting the odds does little to hasten the family atmosphere and that happens throughout the season.

 

See i don't see it as a loss, they shouldn't be getting seats in the home end to start with, they've 3 stands of tickets sold out though, and that's a big earner, along with Celtic it's more than we make from any other game. The club has made EXTRA on top of what it should be making by away fans buying tickets in the home end, but that shouldn't be seen as a loss when they make sure it doesn't happen again. If it's all about money then you'd be as well segregating Livi fans into half the West stand and giving 3 and 1/2 stands to the erse cheeks, and feck how that pisses off home ST holders being moved out their seats, or just give the whole stadium out to away fans to make a killing, why bother about home fans when it's all about money. That's not even as ludicrous as not bothering half the West stand is full of Sevco supporters mingling with Livi fans.

Anyway it's all done now, and the club has made the right decision to protect its home fans from abusive away fans out to cause trouble in the home end. 

 

On your hospo point, agree whole heartedly with you there, really should be security dealing with these drunken aunts, not just erse cheek fans either happens nearly every game, you hear drunken away fans in the hospo shouting the odds at Livi fans. Just because they spend a bit more dosh in the hospo shouldn't give them special treatment to behave like arseholes.

Edited August 3, 2022 by LIVIFOREVER