Livingston - all the threads merged

[HMIP]

10 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

You seem very content on finding an issue here? Of course he was told that, as was Holt, which was publicly known at the time. As we had consistently said as much over and over after Hopkin left. 
 

Our board recognised that Miller was struggling as a player and manager and gave him the ultimatum.

 

You also seem intent on the fact we have some magic money tree and that’s why we’re doing well? In the season we got relegated John Ward, local businessman, came into the club and became club CEO. We have a group of local businessmen that run us, Opcco6 are their joint group name.

 

In 2015/16 we were relegated to League 1 with debts of about 1.7m. We made the choice then to stay full time and keep Hopkin on as manager, Martindale took up leading recruitment. 
 

We were the only full time team in the league, so you’d expect us to get promoted from that. The following season we had a good core of a team that had won a league, and playing with confidence. Despite that we still had I think the second or third lowest budget in the league. We massively over performed but still got promoted. 
 

No overspending involved. That was Opcco6’s main involvement, to ensure we spend what we can and are run properly.

 

Ward has made a big point about it too, the club will never be allowed to spend beyond its means. As is clear by the accounts every year which show we run at a profit every year on a small budget. We run on about 1m a year, in the last year we’ve made about 2m from players sales. Our debt is down to around 300,000 and within the next year or two, we should be debt free. 
 

Like above, TL;DR - You’re talking shite and waffling on with your preconceived opinions about Livi

Never sure what living within your means amounts to.   Or overspending for that matter.  If you have a group of businessmen putting money into the club then good luck to you.  If Martindale has invested money too, as John Hughes stated explicitly in 2018 (not me saying it, so not why you’re accusing me of talking shite), then so be it as well.   The media narrative is that Martindale got involved in coaching in the first place on a voluntary basis because the club was in such dire financial trouble.  Seems obvious to me that there must have been fresh investment in the club round about that time after you got relegated to League 1.  If it’s a coincidence that Martindale’s rise through the ranks happened around the time of that fresh investment, then all the best to him.  Like I said, maybe I’m just too much of a cynic to believe in fairytales.

[LiviLion]

3 minutes ago, HMIP said:

Can only point you to the article I posted above where John Hughes expresses his own scepticism about the “cover story” put out at the time.  Your own fans seem inconsistent on his departure. He knew when he came he wouldn’t be signing players or picking the team, but got sacked because he kept picking himself.    Miller himself to be fair hasn’t said much other than the following. 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/kenny-miller-takes-dig-livingston-13632206

Maybe I’m just a cynic, but it would make more sense that Martindale bought his way into a position of influence at Livingston, which I wouldn’t see as a problem so long as the money was legitimate.  

There isn't even a quote in the article where he has a dig, it's your typical DR clickbait. The "got sacked because he kept picking himself" can be translated as "sacked for poor performances, caused by his presence on the pitch making us as good as a man down, and an unwillingness to change it."

 

[Cptn Hooch]

Never sure what living within your means amounts to.   Or overspending for that matter.  If you have a group of businessmen putting money into the club then good luck to you.  If Martindale has invested money too, as John Hughes stated explicitly in 2018 (not me saying it, so not why you’re accusing me of talking shite), then so be it as well.   The media narrative is that Martindale got involved in coaching in the first place on a voluntary basis because the club was in such dire financial trouble.  Seems obvious to me that there must have been fresh investment in the club round about that time after you got relegated to League 1.  If it’s a coincidence that Martindale’s rise through the ranks happened around the time of that fresh investment, then all the best to him.  Like I said, maybe I’m just too much of a cynic to believe in fairytales.

Why is it obvious there was fresh investment when we were in league 1? Because we won it?

[LiviLion]

5 minutes ago, Cptn Hooch said:

23 minutes ago, HMIP said:

Never sure what living within your means amounts to.   Or overspending for that matter.  If you have a group of businessmen putting money into the club then good luck to you.  If Martindale has invested money too, as John Hughes stated explicitly in 2018 (not me saying it, so not why you’re accusing me of talking shite), then so be it as well.   The media narrative is that Martindale got involved in coaching in the first place on a voluntary basis because the club was in such dire financial trouble.  Seems obvious to me that there must have been fresh investment in the club round about that time after you got relegated to League 1.  If it’s a coincidence that Martindale’s rise through the ranks happened around the time of that fresh investment, then all the best to him.  Like I said, maybe I’m just too much of a cynic to believe in fairytales.

Why is it obvious there was fresh investment when we were in league 1? Because we won it?

Because of all the money we spent on known superstars like *checks notes* Sean Crighton.

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

Pretty sure it was well documented that the board weren't happy with Kenny Miller trying to play and manage Livi. That's before you throw the whole, 'How much control does/did Martindale have?' scenario into the mix.

Yep, John Ward told him he'd have to give up playing and concentrate on being our manager, Miller didn't want to give up playing and left. Haven't actually saw anything other than it being amicable from Miller when he left. He couldn't do both jobs and it was affecting the team having Miller on the pitch, trying to keep an eye on everyone and dropping deep to do so, leaving us a player short up front.

1 hour ago, HMIP said:

That was the excuse given at the time.  Miller seemed to confirm later that it was the relationship with Martindale that was the problem, and that he wasn’t allowed to bring in his own players and coaches.  Who knows if he was told that when he took the job.  I’ve certainly never heard of an arrangement whereby a manager doesn’t recruit the players and doesn’t pick the team, so not surprised he bailed out!

You're talking nonsense.

 

As for not being allowed to bring in his own coaches, that was the conditions before he signed, and has been since Hopkin left. It was the same when Holt came in, we were keeping the same backroom staff that had been in place since League One, there was no need to change the structure at Livi when it has been so successful for us.  

Edited January 26, 2021 by LIVIFOREVER

[ATLIS]

I think the reason Ayr and Falkirk fans are always so raging is because when they have a half decent player they just desert them to take a step up with us and do something with their career

[RandomGuy.]

10 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

I think the reason Ayr and Falkirk fans are always so raging is because when they have a half decent player they just desert them to take a step up with us and do something with their career

You get used to it.

We spent years getting told Geoff Brown was "pumping millions in" every season, despite the accounts showing nothing of the sort.

[The Wrong Car]

57 minutes ago, HMIP said:

 Seems obvious to me that there must have been fresh investment in the club round about that time after you got relegated to League 1.  If it’s a coincidence that Martindale’s rise through the ranks happened around the time of that fresh investment, then all the best to him.  Like I said, maybe I’m just too much of a cynic to believe in fairytales.

Martindale's appointment as Assistant Manager happened in January '16, after we'd promoted Hopkin to Manager until the end of the season, while we were still a Championship club. 

[HMIP]

18 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

I think the reason Ayr and Falkirk fans are always so raging is because when they have a half decent player they just desert them to take a step up with us and do something with their career

No need to get precious.  I merely asked if it was true that Martindale was putting his own money into the club as was suggested by John Hughes 2 years ago,  something that he indicated would explain Martindale’s extraordinary rise to prominence (the quote refers to Livingston being “his club”)   He might be a numpty, but Scottish football is a small community, so it seems odd that Hughes would say that unless he’d heard.it was true.   The quote from Miller is a bit odd as well, saying he took the job despite knowing “certain things about the club and the set up within it”.  

[Durnford]

TBH I'm not really sure what the point of this conversation is. 

Is anyone actually questioning that Miller was shite for us? About the only time he was even half decent was when we were playing lower league sides in the Betfred cup but even then he had some really baffling defensive choices dropping one of our most experienced central defenders; playing himself up front but spending most time as a defensive midfielder etc. 

Also as far as I know it was actually Millar who resigned when  Ward told him to stop picking himself although he could argue that his position was untenable.

Our accounts show a steady improvement through revenue and not by any sudden injection of cash; a large part of that will be as a result of our immediate, and somewhat unexpected, promotion from the Championship.

[Durnford]

5 minutes ago, HMIP said:

No need to get precious.  I merely asked if it was true that Martindale was putting his own money into the club as was suggested by John Hughes 2 years ago,  something that he indicated would explain Martindale’s extraordinary rise to prominence (the quote refers to Livingston being “his club”)   He might be a numpty, but Scottish football is a small community, so it seems odd that Hughes would say that unless he’d heard.it was true.   The quote from Miller is a bit odd as well, saying he took the job despite knowing “certain things about the club and the set up within it”.  

Afraid you wont find a lot of Livi supporters with much respect for Hughes either. His time here was less than auspicious and effectively left for Huddersfield to avoid getting dumped.

He got us playing some of the worst tippy tappy; pass back at all times football I think I've seen in the past almost 60 years of watching football. 

[The Wrong Car]

He also conveniently took charge, along with John Collins as Director of Football, nine days after Gary Bollan was suddenly sacked mid-season, so it's probably best to remain sceptical when he starts talking about dodgy managerial setups

[Lothiangamer]

4 hours ago, HMIP said:

Maybe I’m just a cynic, but it would make more sense that Martindale bought his way into a position of influence at Livingston, which I wouldn’t see as a problem so long as the money was legitimate.  

Yep just a cynic, Martindale mentioned himself in a recent interview, he came into the club I think through a friend connected to the West Lothian Youth Foundation, a charitable organisation in West Lothian using football as a way to...(well have a look at it I am sure there are similar organisations around Scotland),  who have links with the club, this friend told him that the club were struggling a bit and he signed up as a volunteer and done anything asked of him and still does, this seems to have increased as time went on as others have mentioned. 

Davie had a football background playing junior football and I believe a couple of trials with some premier clubs that didn't work out. I see him as one of those managers that never had a great career as a player but I can see him make his mark in football as a manger.

[crispy]

I was talking to my mates about the possibility of the final being put back, before they confirmed Feb, to a time when fans might be allowed into a ground. Months down the line it's difficult to predict what our form would be like and the extreme could've been beyond end of season. At that point the question would be who we would lose? Dykes was obviously the main one from last year and Lawless was a bit of a surprise too. It's less clear to me this year who'd be snapped up. I'd say extending Guthrie's deal must be the priority.

Hypothetically, if we are to finish higher up the league in 21/22 than wherever we finish 20/21 which positions are the priority to strengthen?

As an aside, really excited by the brief look at Kabia and think there are flashes of Dykes in there with his confidence to take players on/shoot/athleticism. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by crispy

[LiviLion]

Will be very surprised if a goalkeeper isn't a fairly high priority in the summer, even if its just a backup. Once McCrorie is back at Rangers I'm not sure we'll be scrambling to get him back, and after Stryjek we have Brian Schwake who I think we can confidently say isn't going to be ready to step in to the Premiership if needed. Wouldn't expect Ross Stewart to be signed again and think Maley's playing days might be over unless he's dropping down some leagues.

Other than that we might need a few more strikers.

Possibly another natural RB too, McMillan has become more of a LB over the years and Lawson is clearly preferred at CM.

[crispy]

I think it would be good if we could add Brown permanently. Must be getting close to leaving Cardiff(?).

[Durnford]

8 minutes ago, crispy said:

I think it would be good if we could add Brown permanently. Must be getting close to leaving Cardiff(?).

I think Brown's contract was up last summer with Cardiff but they extended him - not sure for how long but its unlikely if its just one year given that they farmed him out again almost immediately.

[LiviLion]

58 minutes ago, Durnford said:

I think Brown's contract was up last summer with Cardiff but they extended him - not sure for how long but its unlikely if its just one year given that they farmed him out again almost immediately.

I think it was a 1 year extension.

I'm pretty sure his loan with us is up at the end of this month as well, most likely be extended if we want since he's only just broke into the team and not sure if Cardiff will be desperate to get him in the first team.

[LIVIFOREVER]

3 minutes ago, LiviLion said:

I think it was a 1 year extension.

I'm pretty sure his loan with us is up at the end of this month as well, most likely be extended if we want since he's only just broke into the team and not sure if Cardiff will be desperate to get him in the first team.

Read somewhere Cardiff were wanting him back at the end of this month, can't find it now, too many Martindale headlines to rake through, then all the Celtic stuff from our double header, in the Livi news feed site i look at. May be why we signed Longridge again, in case Brown leaves.

[LIVIFOREVER]

3 hours ago, crispy said:

I was talking to my mates about the possibility of the final being put back, before they confirmed Feb, to a time when fans might be allowed into a ground. Months down the line it's difficult to predict what our form would be like and the extreme could've been beyond end of season. At that point the question would be who we would lose? Dykes was obviously the main one from last year and Lawless was a bit of a surprise too. It's less clear to me this year who'd be snapped up. I'd say extending Guthrie's deal must be the priority.

Hypothetically, if we are to finish higher up the league in 21/22 than wherever we finish 20/21 which positions are the priority to strengthen?

As an aside, really excited by the brief look at Kabia and think there are flashes of Dykes in there with his confidence to take players on/shoot/athleticism. 

Martindale has been well on top of things recruiting players in advance to replace outgoing ones, he brought Forrest in, prob knowing Lawless would be away, did superbly well getting Guthrie when Halkett and Gallagher left too. We've had some didn't work out, but in the main he's got a great track record.