Livingston - all the threads merged

[Yoss]

I wish I had the will tae go looking through this behemoth.. There must be some storming stuff just gagging to be re-introduced to the viewing public..Maybe later

Maybe we should agree to scan a few pages each.

[The ghost of Jim Morton]

What do you mean?

That is good news

The blight on our game that is Livingston FC is going down the drain...and it's fantastic.

[The ghost of Jim Morton]

And Dundee aren't allowed to operate at a loss...

What???

[The ghost of Jim Morton]

cant wait to get my nice orange grave dancing shoes on

might even wear my sash too

[The Master]

I must coerce my long-time adversary into closing this thread

[ayrmad]

I must coerce my long-time adversary into closing this thread

I think we should start a new thread named "with hindsight would I have posted this?".

[Yoss]

I was avoiding commenting on the Livi stuff over on the Dundee thread, but some issues arising:

for those that still don't seem to have got their heads round it: Livi's demotion last summer was not a punishment for being in administration. It's still not clear whether the SFL were going to apply any punishment for it, after the first of the two board meetings at the time, and had Livi been able and allowed to stay in the first division. The demotion was a pragmatic measure (as with Gretna previously) to limit the potential damage of a club going bust during the season. In that sense, Livi were unlucky with the timing. If Massone's regime had collapsed earlier in the summer, it might have allowed the administrator and new owners to get things sorted and get a CVA in place in time for the start of the season, in which case there wouldn't have been a problem. But the CVA is the critical thing - the business of the administrator being able (or not) to guarantee the business will survive is not a matter of him expressing an opinion, until that CVA is in place he's legally not able to speak for those on whom that survival depends (ie the creditors).

If a club goes into administration during a season, that's unlucky, but there would be no point in asking a club to provide the same guarantees when it happens mid-season. (What happens if, or rather when, they say no? Are you immediately going to demote them, leave the first division with nine clubs and cause exactly the kind of financial loss for the remaining clubs that that the guarantees were designed to avoid?) What punishment the SFL would impose on Dundee if the worst comes to the worst remains to be seen, but what happened to Livi is only tangentially related and shouldn't be looked to for any kind of guide.

(It's also worth looking at the English set-up here, where they have much stricter rules in force. There's a ten point punishment for going into administration - but separate from and over and above that there are even harsher rules for attempting to start a new season without havign a CVA in place that would guarantee them finishing it. In theory, such clubs would not be allowed a licence and wouldn't be able to start the season at all. In practice, they've fudged it a bit and applied much stricter points deductions, eg the 25 point penalty with which Chester started last season.)

The other issue mentioned on the other thread was Livi's situation now:

You're still running at a significant operatin loss - I think McDougall said £400K last season though I can't find the link offhand. And you could have done more to cut costs last year if you'd wanted or needed to. Someone (Paul Watson?) was signed on a full-time two year deal within days of last summer's demotion, for one example.

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with that if Rankine / McDougall / whoever else are willing to put the money in. It's cool. Same goes for Melville at Dundee and that bloke at Morton, I don't have a problem with it in itself. (So long as it doesn't involve taking on commitments over and beyond what they're willing to cover in the long-term - which may or may not be what's happened at Dundee.)

Just don't pretend that you've cut costs back to a minimum and are now running on anything like a sustainable basis. You're still being propped up by sugar daddies or external sources of funding just as you have been throughout the club's history.

[ayrmad]

I was avoiding commenting on the Livi stuff over on the Dundee thread, but some issues arising:

for those that still don't seem to have got their heads round it: Livi's demotion last summer was not a punishment for being in administration. It's still not clear whether the SFL were going to apply any punishment for it, after the first of the two board meetings at the time, and had Livi been able and allowed to stay in the first division. The demotion was a pragmatic measure (as with Gretna previously) to limit the potential damage of a club going bust during the season. In that sense, Livi were unlucky with the timing. If Massone's regime had collapsed earlier in the summer, it might have allowed the administrator and new owners to get things sorted and get a CVA in place in time for the start of the season, in which case there wouldn't have been a problem. But the CVA is the critical thing - the business of the administrator being able (or not) to guarantee the business will survive is not a matter of him expressing an opinion, until that CVA is in place he's legally not able to speak for those on whom that survival depends (ie the creditors).

If a club goes into administration during a season, that's unlucky, but there would be no point in asking a club to provide the same guarantees when it happens mid-season. (What happens if, or rather when, they say no? Are you immediately going to demote them, leave the first division with nine clubs and cause exactly the kind of financial loss for the remaining clubs that that the guarantees were designed to avoid?) What punishment the SFL would impose on Dundee if the worst comes to the worst remains to be seen, but what happened to Livi is only tangentially related and shouldn't be looked to for any kind of guide.

(It's also worth looking at the English set-up here, where they have much stricter rules in force. There's a ten point punishment for going into administration - but separate from and over and above that there are even harsher rules for attempting to start a new season without havign a CVA in place that would guarantee them finishing it. In theory, such clubs would not be allowed a licence and wouldn't be able to start the season at all. In practice, they've fudged it a bit and applied much stricter points deductions, eg the 25 point penalty with which Chester started last season.)

The other issue mentioned on the other thread was Livi's situation now:

You're still running at a significant operatin loss - I think McDougall said £400K last season though I can't find the link offhand. And you could have done more to cut costs last year if you'd wanted or needed to. Someone (Paul Watson?) was signed on a full-time two year deal within days of last summer's demotion, for one example.

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with that if Rankine / McDougall / whoever else are willing to put the money in. It's cool. Same goes for Melville at Dundee and that bloke at Morton, I don't have a problem with it in itself. (So long as it doesn't involve taking on commitments over and beyond what they're willing to cover in the long-term - which may or may not be what's happened at Dundee.)

Just don't pretend that you've cut costs back to a minimum and are now running on anything like a sustainable basis. You're still being propped up by sugar daddies or external sources of funding just as you have been throughout the club's history.

Aye right, I've no doubt many clubs used it as a method of punishing the "cheating franchise barstewards" especially after they'd the temerity not to play in the 3rd when they were still a 1st division club.

Not my view b4 someone has a pop.

Edited September 28, 2010 by ayrmad

[LIVIFOREVER]

How many clubs could put up a season in advance gate money to cover all away games?

You can dress it up any way you want to justify what they did, but i'm not wearing it, there were goings on behind the corrupt doors of the SFL blazers, politics were involved. Look at the fall out when Rankine exposed a couple of them, 2 resignations from top positions, i'm not believing the rest aren't as bent as a 9 boab note, or at least a good few of them.

Anyway, it's all done and dusted, nothing can be done about it now.

We all know Livi aint out of the woods by any manner, still funny looking back at some of the comments from these Dee's, who at the time were full of it, not so smug now though.

[Yoss]

Yeah okay, it's old ground. There's a big difference between being asked for that amoutn of money and being asked for a bond for the same amount of money, btw. And no other club was asked for it because no other club was in administration.

I agree that there's bound to have been some politics involved and attitudes seem to harden in the week between the two meetings concerned, for whatever reason. Nonetheless, whatever the reasons individuals had for voting for it, the rationale for it was not punishment - which is why it's not a precedent for Dundee.

[LIVIFOREVER]

Yeah okay, it's old ground. There's a big difference between being asked for that amoutn of money and being asked for a bond for the same amount of money, btw. And no other club was asked for it because no other club was in administration.

I agree that there's bound to have been some politics involved and attitudes seem to harden in the week between the two meetings concerned, for whatever reason. Nonetheless, whatever the reasons individuals had for voting for it, the rationale for it was not punishment - which is why it's not a precedent for Dundee.

Not arguing with you there, turned out a good thing for us, IMO we'd have still been in the 2nd Div this season if we'd been allowed to stay in the 1st with a points penalty. Difference is we're here on the back of promotion and in a strong mind set with a stable team with young player from our under 19's who've had a seasons experience in an easier league.

[Airdrie76]

How many clubs could put up a season in advance gate money to cover all away games?

You can dress it up any way you want to justify what they did, but i'm not wearing it, there were goings on behind the corrupt doors of the SFL blazers, politics were involved. Look at the fall out when Rankine exposed a couple of them, 2 resignations from top positions, i'm not believing the rest aren't as bent as a 9 boab note, or at least a good few of them.

Anyway, it's all done and dusted, nothing can be done about it now.

We all know Livi aint out of the woods by any manner, still funny looking back at some of the comments from these Dee's, who at the time were full of it, not so smug now though.

Who are the likes of McDougall, Rankine, Gemmill etc if not the very persons that fit the description of blazers?? I don't get your obsession with the phrase when you have these people in and around your club.

Rankine was able to expose them as he is one of them! He was the bookie!! Just how bent is he?? The irony on McMasters departure can't be lost given the situation with Rankines niece.

The man you hate, blame and call a blazer hasn't been involved in Scottish Football for anywhere near the length of time ANY of them have been.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Airdrie76

[Charles Darwin Esq]

Thick brown envelopes carry more sway than the SFL's rules in all their pedantic minutia.

Allegedly of course

[vikingTON]

Your club are only a healthy eating fad away.

I can't see how a healthy eating fad would get rid of the significant assets on the books.

[LIVIFOREVER]

Who are the likes of McDougall, Rankine, Gemmill etc if not the very persons that fit the description of blazers?? I don't get your obsession with the phrase when you have these people in and around your club.

Rankine was able to expose them as he is one of them! He was the bookie!! Just how bent is he?? The irony on McMasters departure can't be lost given the situation with Rankines niece.

The man you hate, blame and call a blazer hasn't been involved in Scottish Football for anywhere near the length of time ANY of them have been.

Indeed he was, and i do wonder about him as well, if any dirt could be proven then i'm sure it would've been though, or perhaps he and the SFL decided not to engage in an all out war as they'd both lose. That doesn't detract from how bent the SFL/SFA is though does it.

[Airdrie76]

I think it's a case that Rankine is too clever to be caught! Whether the league is bent or not your guys have been part of it for a very long time!

[ayrmad]

I can't see how a healthy eating fad would get rid of the significant assets on the books.

In business there are only 3 things that count:

1. Cashflow.

2. Cashflow.

3. Cashflow.

When someone wants their cash assets mean diddlysquat.

[Ever the Optimist]

In business there are only 3 things that count:

1. Cashflow.

2. Cashflow.

3. Cashflow.

When someone wants their cash assets mean diddlysquat.

Only of course if they cannot turn their assets into cash. For example a portion of a car park.

[MCL]

Thick brown envelopes carry more sway than the SFL's rules in all their pedantic minutia.

Allegedly of course

True about the thick brown envelopes.

The accounts up to 30th June 2009 have been lodged and make interesting reading. It looks like Massone was actually doing quite well in reducing the debts which makes you wonder where we would be if the council, "Trust" and the current board didn't conspire to get rid of him?

[EdinburghLivi]

Probably liquidated when the HMRC lodged their winding up order, a few days later.

Care to post some more of the details?

Edited October 3, 2010 by EdinburghLivi