LIVIFOREVER Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Go fcuk yourself, why should he pander to folk like you who want to hush up all that is going on down at Almondvale? Don't read the thread if it upsets you that much. If there's really nothing to say it will soon drop off the front page. Folks at Livi that used to censorship from their board that they want to introduce it to this board. Reading between the lines: I've not got a life and don't know what i'd do with myslef if i couldn't come on here and post shite about Livi. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIVIFOREVER Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Better for who? Better for the club? Yes, maybe it is, but seeing as one of the facets of a punishment is that it should act as a deterrent, so that others dont do the same, then it isnt better for the leauge. Again, Livy fans seem to be getting confused as to who decides what penalties are dished out and who they should be for the benefit of As we already discussed, rich clubs could see a, relatively, small fine as a better option than playing a game at a time they dont want to. Again, I've already told you why a points deduction shouldnt equate to a financial penalty for any club. I know what your point is, that it decreases future revenue. You're quite right it does, but that simply means the club has to cut its costs. Your not suggesting that the clubs finances are being artificially propped up in the 3rd division on the basis that the club will make more money when its promoted, are you? I dont see whats meaningless in correcting you when you're wrong, maybe that way you'll learn I cant believe your still trying to pull that line. Who are you trying to convince? Us, or yourself? Only i'm not wrong, you are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIVIFOREVER Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I don't really buy that line of argument.Mind you, it's quite difficult for a number of the Livi fans to dispute it, since "setting a dangerous precedent" has been a central plank of their argument for not wanting to be placed in division three - but luckily I'm not hamstrung by any such prior argument and I'm not convinced by the dangerous precedent argyment in one case any more than the other. Each case on its merits, that the SFL are (we think) not deducting points here does not mean they are unable to do so in future cases that they deem to be more serious. If there should ever be a suggestion that a team has postponed for tactical reasons because they think they may have a better chance of winning later on then the SFL will still be perfectly at liberty to deduct points to make sure its to no one's benefit to do so. Nothing they do here and now affects that, if they decide the circumstances are materially different (which they are). Ah now you're talking sense, each caes on its merit Dunno that we are hamstrung by any precednet being set arguement, hardly think being relegated down 2 Div and whilst appealing are told to play a game that will prejudice our appeal is something many teams will face but if they do i'll be right behind them refusing to play their game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marty_j Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Seriously though I'm becoming really concerned about the avoidance going on here, neither my club nor the SFL seem to want to answer the question. Trust me that is what you got, they are afraid of saying owt because of the inevitable outcry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Only i'm not wrong, you are. Er, quite clearly Im not. Even if Livys punishment is only a fine, its still a punishment. If you were right and this insane notion of "prejudicing an appeal" were correct there would have been no punishment. Ah now you're talking sense, each caes on its merit Dunno that we are hamstrung by any precednet being set arguement, hardly think being relegated down 2 Div and whilst appealing are told to play a game that will prejudice our appeal is something many teams will face but if they do i'll be right behind them refusing to play their game. I think you're misunderstanding the concept of a precednet (sic) Livy being demoted caused a great deal of wailing and gnashing of teeth from certain sections of livy fans, claiming that a precedent had been set for any other teams going into admin - even though that wasnt the reason, but thats another argument. The club has now been fined for scratching a fixture, therefore, by the Livy logic that has set a precedent for any other club scratching a fixture. Of course, it hasnt, but then neither had Livys demotion, but the fact is you cant claim one decision sets a precedent and then suddenly decide that others situations dont. Either the rules are strict and based on precedent, or the rules are open and each case is judged on its own merit. As for closing the thread - well, a precedent was set with Gretna. Their thread stayed open until the club died. Given how much the livy fans love their precedents (when it suits them apparently) I think this should stay open. After all, I wouldnt want to prejudice the clubs chances of survival Edited November 25, 2009 by Mr X 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Trust me that is what you got, they are afraid of saying owt because of the inevitable outcry. That's leadership for you. Start as you mean to go on. Preview of Longmuir making the announcement on behalf of The new SFL prez Edited November 25, 2009 by Sergeant Wilson 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi 293 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) I can agree they have been punished to an extent but still annoyed that they have buggered up our league by dropping from nowhere with a full time squad and no punishment relative to us div3 types,not saying this is right but still cant help feeling aggreived if no deduction. Oh, of course. Poor you. Edited November 25, 2009 by Livi 293 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g-force1967 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 How can Livingston possibly carry on as a full time outfit on crowds circa 750? Surely they aren't making that much money from the car park to susbsidies full time wages. There's no Mileson figure either to bankroll them. How can a virtually bankrupt club continue without paying part time wages? Does their board expect them to be promoted two divisions if they win the league or has there been something agreed- behind closed doors- between them and the SFL? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimM Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 How can Livingston possibly carry on as a full time outfit on crowds circa 750?Surely they aren't making that much money from the car park to susbsidies full time wages. There's no Mileson figure either to bankroll them. How can a virtually bankrupt club continue without paying part time wages? Does their board expect them to be promoted two divisions if they win the league or has there been something agreed- behind closed doors- between them and the SFL? A very good question I'd like to know the answer to as well. It is however important to look at the contract commitments they were left with due to the SFLs decision to demote them 2 leagues. Some of the more expensive contracts have been terminated by mutual consent; some still exist. Next you should look at the overall team many of the players are in fact under the age of 20 and therefore despite being full time will not be getting paid huge sums of money. Finally consider the crowds the number quoted was for a very wet Tuesday evening; I think you'll find the average crowd will be arround the 1K mark. If Livingston are to survive then you'll find the expensive contracts will not be renewed; the talented younger player will be sold on; and of course they will have to establish themselves back in the 1st division. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g-force1967 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Seven home league games with a total attendance of 4662 gives an average home crowd of 666. Even if they all pay £12 that only gives a figure of £7,992. First team squad of 20 plus 17 on the coaching staff plus an under 19 team plus an under 17 team. There does appear to be a lot more going out than coming in. It doesn't add up whichever way you look at it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambo1885 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Seven home league games with a total attendance of 4662 gives an average home crowd of 666. Even if they all pay £12 that only gives a figure of £7,992. First team squad of 20 plus 17 on the coaching staff plus an under 19 team plus an under 17 team. There does appear to be a lot more going out than coming in.It doesn't add up whichever way you look at it. Looks pretty standard Livi accountancy to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Seven home league games with a total attendance of 4662 gives an average home crowd of 666. Even if they all pay £12 that only gives a figure of £7,992. First team squad of 20 plus 17 on the coaching staff plus an under 19 team plus an under 17 team. There does appear to be a lot more going out than coming in.It doesn't add up whichever way you look at it. Livingston - the Club of the Beast! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nofixedability Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 It's an interesting question and it'll be enlightening to see what happens at the January window as to whether they bring in more full timers or not. Let's face it full time wages in second or third division will not work financially for any Scottish club, yet being full time gives the club a clear advantage over the other part time ones in the league. In my opinion for their long term survival they need to be part time very quickly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djn Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Seven home league games with a total attendance of 4662 gives an average home crowd of 666 Must have been a lot of wet Tuesday nights then... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdinburghLivi Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Livy being demoted caused a great deal of wailing and gnashing of teeth from certain sections of livy fans, claiming that a precedent had been set for any other teams going into admin - even though that wasnt the reason, but thats another argument. The club has now been fined for scratching a fixture, therefore, by the Livy logic that has set a precedent for any other club scratching a fixture. Of course, it hasnt, but then neither had Livys demotion, but the fact is you cant claim one decision sets a precedent and then suddenly decide that others situations dont. Either the rules are strict and based on precedent, or the rules are open and each case is judged on its own merit.As for closing the thread - well, a precedent was set with Gretna. Their thread stayed open until the club died. Given how much the livy fans love their precedents (when it suits them apparently) I think this should stay open. After all, I wouldnt want to prejudice the clubs chances of survival Err... no it hasn't. We didn't play because we were appealing a league demotion which we were allowed to up until the Friday morning. Of course, I'd expect the same thing if it were to happen again but it's unlikely to be a reaosn for a team not playing in future. As for the last piece of bitter bile - 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdinburghLivi Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Not that it's really different but we've actually only had 6 home games. Giving an average of 777 considerably more than any of the other teams in this league. This should be merged with the bile thread. At least it's discussion... Edited November 25, 2009 by EdinburghLivi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marty_j Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 average of 777 considerably more than any of the other teams in this league. Most of those teams running within their means though. I would assume consortium or guaranteeing the deficit, the equation has been done countless times on Livingston thread if anyone can be arsed to sift through it. Don't think it is right to suggest all Livi threads go in this big thread, not everyone can be arsed to go through it, does that mean match reports and everything are in it too? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g-force1967 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Not that it's really different but we've actually only had 6 home games. Giving an average of 777 considerably more than any of the other teams in this league.This should be merged with the bile thread. At least it's discussion... My mistake. I counted the postponed Albion Rovers game twice. It doesn't matter which way you look at it, your club is hemorrhagging money. I'm not sifting through that guff. I'm concerned about the rest of this season and the fact that a bankrupt club can be allowed to build up ridiculous amounts of debt again. It looks like absolutely nothing has been learned from the Gretna shambles. Edited November 25, 2009 by g-force1967 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTIG_FTOF Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I think you'll find the average crowd will be arround the 1K mark. The latest issue (15) of the SFL League Insider gives an average attendance of 788 (page 11) Seven home league games with a total attendance of 4662 gives an average home crowd of 666. Even if they all pay £12 that only gives a figure of £7,992. First team squad of 20 plus 17 on the coaching staff plus an under 19 team plus an under 17 team. There does appear to be a lot more going out than coming in. It doesn't add up whichever way you look at it. 17 coaches!!?????!!!!!!! Christ on a bike !!! Even if you said an average 788 brought in 10k a game, thats just 5k a week. Even (and I'm being overly generous with figures here) if sponsorship brought in same again every week and other commercial income/profit brought in another 5k (i.e. revenue of 15k a week), it's still woefully short of what their outgoings would be on wages alone for their staff, let alone running costs of the ground, rent, tax, and 100 other odd outgoings). Good to see Livi sticking to their pledge of spending within their means, and not spending more than 99p for every £1 they get. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdinburghLivi Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Most of those teams running within their means though.I would assume consortium or guaranteeing the deficit, the equation has been done countless times on Livingston thread if anyone can be arsed to sift through it. Don't think it is right to suggest all Livi threads go in this big thread, not everyone can be arsed to go through it, does that mean match reports and everything are in it too? I believe so. Just as a counter point, a lot of contracts are running out in the summer and I also expect us to be making a bit of money off Halliday at some point. Nah, I was just pleading for some interesting discussion in that thread. I'm not suggesting everything should go in there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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