Livingston - all the threads merged

[stuartcraig]

Also, i can't speak for Airdrie fans, but having attended the relegation decider at Almondvale in 2005 and having Livi fans gleefully sing "Dundee till July" and wave tenners at us, there is some mild amusement in the current situation. Also i believe you were at the same thing when Morton were in bother with Hugh Scott, and most probably when Steve Archibald was ruining Airdrie, so to come over all sensitive about piss-taking when it comes back in your direction is a wee bit pathetic.

In fairness to the Livi fans their team played the closing game of the "Gary MacKay" season at our place and they didn't give it the big "GIRUY" (with the small exception of covering our pitch with gold and black "paper"). In fact, the fat poet from fife even came and stood in front of our support and applauded us. I think that was the season before they were promoted.

Stuart

[HibeeJibee]

If indeed the HMRC do wind Livi up, will this go down in history as the most retarded take over of a football club ever?

Probably but in fairness it appears the new consortium sunk in very little capital in (at only £10k).

While everyone looking at the football clubs and big creditors, here are some more poignant ones:

Capability Scotland £460 (charity for the care of children with Cerebral Palsy and other severe and debilitating disabilities)

Performing Rights Society £1,352 (collects royalty fees for music, and a musician's hardship fund)

St Andrews Ambulance £4,897 (charity providing community ambulance, care and first aid training)

Redundancy Office £60,000

Scottish Amateur FA £190

Scottish Football Partnership £19,499 (gives grants to help provide grassroots community football)

City of Edinburgh Council £3,125

Lothian & Borders Police £24,840

National Health Service £347; £400; £87

Royal Mail £450

West Lothian Chamber of Commerce £74

All in all, another indication of the people and organisations who lose out from Livingston's actions.

And of course a long list of local tradesmen, food suppliers, office suppliers, engineers, transport operators, healthcare providers who will all get somewhere in the region of 5% of their dues from their local club. But I forget. Livi is, was and always will be good for the people of West Lothian...

Another good one: Corsair Debt Recovery £40. So looks like they'll be getting a £2 coin, then!!

Can anyone confirm details of the "deal" McGruther has struck outside of CVA with WLC & HMRC?

Edited September 16, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[HibeeJibee]

That total amount can't just be for the last year? If it is then we are truly fecked in the 3rd!!

You're income for 2 home games doesn't even break £6k... Even if we're obscenely generous, and we think the club can quadruple through sponsorship, hospitality etc. that's what £20k a month? So £5k a week? Players wages alone, for 20 players at £6 per hour for 40 hours each, adds up to £4.8k !! And most players will be on far bigger wages than that, plus bonuses, medical care...

And that's before costs, bills, transport, food, utilities, non-playing staff wages, tax, NI, fees, etc. ...

Edited September 16, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[Homer Thompson]

Probably but in fairness it appears the new consortium sunk in very little capital in (at only £10k).

I guess the £200k they are paying for the club will not be paid if the club folds

While everyone looking at the football clubs and big creditors, here are some more poignant ones:

All in all, another indication of the people and organisations who lose out from Livingston's actions.

And of course a long list of local tradesmen, food suppliers, office suppliers, engineers, transport operators, healthcare providers who will all get somewhere in the region of 5% of their dues from their local club. But I forget. Livi is, was and always will be good for the people of West Lothian...

Another good one: Corsair Debt Recovery £40. So looks like they'll be getting a £2 coin, then!!

Can anyone confirm details of the "deal" McGruther has struck outside of CVA with WLC & HMRC?

I had a go at guessing

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Probably but in fairness it appears the new consortium sunk in very little capital in (at only £10k).

While everyone looking at the football clubs and big creditors, here are some more poignant ones:

All in all, another indication of the people and organisations who lose out from Livingston's actions.

And of course a long list of local tradesmen, food suppliers, office suppliers, engineers, transport operators, healthcare providers who will all get somewhere in the region of 5% of their dues from their local club. But I forget. Livi is, was and always will be good for the people of West Lothian...

Another good one: Corsair Debt Recovery £40. So looks like they'll be getting a £2 coin, then!!

Can anyone confirm details of the "deal" McGruther has struck outside of CVA with WLC & HMRC?

I find this bit very strange. OK so we know WLC bent over backwards, but i'm intrigued as to why the HMRC struck a deal (allegedly).

I vaguely remember that when we signed Leigh Griffiths, a chunk of that fee was supposed to be going to HMRC. It clearly didn't. In fact, what the hell happened to it?

The leccy bill wasn't payed (where another chunk of it was supposedly going) and i'm not sure that any of the staff wages were paid as there is still £60,000 outstanding.

Interesting stuff...

[HibeeJibee]

I had a go at guessing

But surely liquidation will get them more than 5p? Especially as Livi is still in effect running at loss?

EDIT TO ADD: Just to say that I personally find the creditor system slightly disturbing. As I pointed out earlier on, there are charities (including one for severely disabled children) who have to fight it out with Coca-Cola, Sky, Scottish Gas etc. in the divvy-up. Surely charities should get a preference?

Edited September 16, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[Homer Thompson]

But surely liquidation will get them more than 5p? Especially as Livi are still in effect running at loss?

EDIT TO ADD: Just to say that I personally find the creditor system slightly disturbing. As I pointed out earlier on, there are charities (including one for severely disabled children) who have to fight it out with Coca-Cola, Sky, Scottish Gas etc. in the divvy-up. Surely charities should get a preference?

How will liquidation get them more? Surely they wont get anything?

[HibeeJibee]

How will liquidation get them more? Surely they wont get anything?

Surely the clubs fixed assets have some value? Do player registrations, lease of Almondvale etc. go onto the list of fixed assets? They are due £2M, propose pay £100k: how much is squad worth...?

EDIT TO ADD: Actually I remember players can't be counted as assets. Disregard my previous point.

Edited September 16, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[Homer Thompson]

Surely the clubs fixed assets have some value? Do player registrations, lease of Almondvale etc. go onto the list of fixed assets? They are due £2M, propose pay £100k: how much is squad worth...?

EDIT TO ADD: Actually I remember players can't be counted as assets. Disregard my previous point.

Theres £250k of assets listed - and £225k of that is what the Livy5 will pay for the club. As I said above, Im guessing they wont pay this if the club folds. Even if they did, after the administrators taken his chunk, theres only c£115k left, then take off £20k for the prefered creditor (Redundancy payments office) and thats c£95k left to spread around

[Glasgow Loon]

Given Livi dont own the ground i cant see what assets they actually have.

[Homer Thompson]

Given Livi dont own the ground i cant see what assets they actually have.

Read the CVA document then

[Ivo den Bieman]

The fact that "Livi 5" have only sunk in ten grand on the balance sheet really should be ringing big alarm bells. Surely they would need to pump in much more than that if they really were serious about saving the club and transforming it into the thriftily-run community asset that they always claimed.

[FFCinthearea]

I had to chuckle when I read the last page of that. McGruther's company is charging£280 / hour and they have the cheek to charge 10p for a photocopy!

[HibeeJibee]

Right guys who's the next creditor are we going to go after now

Take your pick. [A] a charity for severely disabled children?; the National Health Service?; [C] an organisation which looks after musicians in hardship?; or [D] the community football partnership?

Edited September 16, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Take your pick. [A] a charity for severely disabled children?; the National Health Service?; [C] an organisation which looks after musicians in hardship?; or [D] the community football partnership?

You don't half hit where it hurts!

[HibeeJibee]

You don't half hit where it hurts!

Apologies if I'm being slightly blunt. However it demonstrates my point. Far too many Livi fans are all happy to believe you've made a fresh start. It is a fallacy. A trail of destruction is being left, a trail worsened by the money given to Winters, new assistant, etc. Money 'taken' from the disabled children. Every penny given out in goal bonuses, signing-on fees, or on wages - is a penny taken away from the disabled children, the NHS, the pensioners, the school-children, the sick and needy.

Edited September 16, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Apologies if I'm being slightly blunt. However it demonstrates my point. Far too many Livi fans are all happy to believe you've made a fresh start. It is a fallacy. A trail of destruction is being left, a trail worsened by the money given to Winters, new assistant, etc. Money 'taken' from the disabled children. Every penny given out in goal bonuses, signing-on fees, or on wages - is a penny taken away from the disabled children, the NHS, the pensioners, the school-children, the sick and needy.

Sadly what you say is very true.

[vikingTON]

Some of the creditors would be better off with nothing if they need to continue services to the club eg the ambulances. It's screamingly obvious Livi will rack up debts again and some of them would be better to cut their losses now rather than get a pittance now and face their next debt being written off in liquidation.

[RedV]

Sadly what you say is very true.

Yes, it is. So why are you and other more "reasonable" Livi supporters not taking the club to task over it? You don't need to ask particularly involved questions: "How can we possibly justify appointing an Assistant Manager we don't need rather than paying creditors?" and "How can we possibly break even in the 3rd division with a full-time squad?" would do for starters!

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Yes, it is. So why are you and other more "reasonable" Livi supporters not taking the club to task over it? You don't need to ask particularly involved questions: "How can we possibly justify appointing an Assistant Manager we don't need rather than paying creditors?" and "How can we possibly break even in the 3rd division with a full-time squad?" would do for starters!

I have done that. The reasons given were that the players are tied to their contracts. Regarding Robbie Winters supposedly he was offered more at Airdrie but chose to come to Livi as his brother is here & he is only contracted until December. I have not asked about the assistant manager yet as I have not had the chance to speak with anyone at the club about it yet.