Livingston - all the threads merged

[Guest WJR]

Well in principal yes!! If someone gets caught for burglary, they might get a couple of months in prison. If they get caught for burglary again a couple of month after their release, maybe they get 6 months in prison. If they get caught again a few months after relase, 12 months. And so on...

Previous offences of a similar nature should always be taken into account, both in law and in football. If every time Livingston FC go into administration, they receive punishment as if it was the first time, there is less incentive not to do it again. And Livi have a terrible financial record.

Livi have in effect got lucky, in that [1] the SFL Management Committee tried to let you off with a slap on the wrist to avoid re-jigging the leagues... only for their member clubs to find it totally unacceptable; and [2] this McIntyre business has blown up. Had the SFL MC demoted you from the off, and had McIntyre not been an addictive gambler, Livi wouldn't have a leg to stand on...

Anyone else think this is beginning to resemble Andrew Jennings' "Foul" - or is it more Ealing comedy?

[Guest]

Okay Livi have been through two administrations in the last few years, but where does it outline the proposed punishment for this crime? Is it in the rules that whenever a new situation arises you can therefore re-punish for the past errors? Should each case not be dealt with individually or should we be taken out & shot at dawn because it happened before?

Just to add, You all know that I quite happily accepted the given punishment but I can see where the people are coming from that don't accept it, there seems to be a lot more to this than meets the eye.

Thisis the thing.They didn't get punished last time. They walked away scot free, and then immediately returned to the good old ways of ripping people off. Like it or not, LFC have never played with a straight bat. They have always sought ways (no matter how questionable) to climb the ladder, and they have applied the same principles to avoiding punishment. Anyone who thinks what is in place now is whiter than white will have a rude awakening soon enough.

ing other

If you are not a Livvy supporter, it is, in general terms, near enough impossible to find the club to be anything other than a fairly grubby outfit from first day to last. It boils down to this. The majority of people are happy to see some sort of justice finally catch up with LFC. Being what they are, LFC do not want to be punished for anything.

The Livvy support are near enough wholly desensitized to the affect of administration on other people. They now see it as a get out of jail card to be played whenever they feel the need. Demotion to the third was the signal that "enough is enough". Other clubs have managed their finances (not well I agree), for decades and decades. LFC have repeatedly refused to embrace honesty as a foundation stone of their business. They are now looking for the third fresh start in 14 years. That is unfair to other clubs, and the punishment meted out reflects the unhappiness of other member clubs towards LFC's behaviour. LFC don't accept this because the leopard has not changed it spots. It is still looking to play get out of jail cards. LFC have not changed one little bit.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Y'see, it's the "almost" word that doesn't work for most right minded people. The point deduction isn't really any sort of punishment whatsoever. Relegation most certainly is. I don't think it's too clever to pass a judgement which says "we are almost certainly going to punish you".

LFC are (as someone else mentioned) a magnet for crooks and comic singers. Until such time as LFC is given a clear message that their behaviour isn't acceptable, then it will keep on happening.

There's a piece in a local paper quoting the illustrious council leader of West Lothian. Forme at least, if further re-inforces who the players are. Look beyond the political bollox, and there is some interesting stuff in there....................

Published Date: 01 September 2009

WEST Lothian Council has agreed to take steps to support senior football in the area.

Earlier this year the council took Livingston Football Club, which has been reported as being £1.7 million in debt, to court for unpaid rent, which resulted in the club being put into administration.

Council Leader Peter Johnston said: "We believe that senior football is important to West Lothian.

"Regrettably what we inherited was an historic arrangement, made in 2005, which allowed the club to pay its rent a year in arrears. It is well documented that the council tried to help the club through a financially difficult period by providing a debt repayment schedule. When this failed we had no alternative to court action to seek to recover the rent due.

"The council's court action made it clear that the previous ownership had run up substantial debts and had no funds to repay these. The options then were for the club to go into liquidation, and with no assets the council would not have received any funds at all. The most positive option, and the council's aim, is that West Lothian's state of the art stadium is used for senior football.

"We have decided to work with the Administrator and the new owners who are prepared to put substantial sums of their own money into providing a new start for Livingston FC. We believe this is a far better option than forcing the club into liquidation. Like other creditors we hope that, in due course, the Administrator will be able to make partial repayment of the sums due to us."

The revised rent will be payable monthly in advance by Direct Debit at a level which reflects the Division the Football Club is in for the season.

The rent and non-domestic rates are both the subject of a claim submitted to the Administrator of Livingston Football Club.

Am I the only one who thinks this will cause chaos?

[bhoonaman]

No it doesn't,will Hearts be relegated to the 3rd when Romanov gets bored?

Not likely since the SPL only have one division. If you are going to go into adminsitration then make sure you are in the SPL first. The joys of a two league setup.

[HibeeJibee]

Couldn't agree more. Livi are apparently still offering full-time contracts - how can that be?

What I don't understand is how, when the club is still in some form of administration / insolvency practitionership, they are [1] signing new players (like Winters...), and [2] fielding triallists (like McNeil...). They are out of the cups, so how does the club spending money signing more players help the creditors? Why can't these wages/expenses being paid out have gone to the creditors?

Livi fans have taken a new consortium hook, line and sinker for the 4th (5th?) time... but where is the evidence they can make full-time football in West Lothian pay its way? What has changed...?

Edited September 2, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[ayrmad]

All of this stuff has been gone over many times in the thread already, but just to note that that statement is simply untrue, no one else has had two administrations in recent years.

As for equality of treatment, there have been two occasions (both in the last two years) when teams in administration have been unable to guarantee, prior to the start of a season, that they'd be able to complete it. Both were placed in division three and yes I see no reason to suppose the same wouldn't happen to anyone in the SFL.

(How the SPL would deal with it I have no idea, but that's not relevant.)

Livi weren't in administration when they were demoted.

If Hearts find themselves in the same situation as Gretna were in there is no way they'd be demoted to the 3rd,anyone that thinks that is ever going to happen is off their head.

When Celtic many moons ago were toying with relegation for a few months the words no relegation this season were being uttered.

We don't have enough biggish teams to bomb everyone down the leagues.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

I may be wrong but when we first went into admin were we not in the SPL?

[ayrmad]

We either have a Saint here or someone who is terrified Ayr will finish bottom!

Take your pick.

I am certainly not,nor do I aspire to be a saint.

How the fcuk can an adult be terrified that their football team will be relegated?

It's a game of football it doesn't pay my bills or change my life in anyway wether Ayr get fcuked every week or not.

You are just desperate to stay in a higher league.

[Yoss]

Livi weren't in administration when they were demoted.

If Hearts find themselves in the same situation as Gretna were in there is no way they'd be demoted to the 3rd,anyone that thinks that is ever going to happen is off their head.

When Celtic many moons ago were toying with relegation for a few months the words no relegation this season were being uttered.

We don't have enough biggish teams to bomb everyone down the leagues.

Again, we're going over old ground here, but they were in legal insolvency procedures that fall well within the scope of the SFL's rule to that that effect.

(Edit: In any case I was answering, with that comment, your point that they're not doing anything different to anyone else, rather than commenting directly on the SFL's action.)

(And, as already noted above, Hearts are in the SPL who only have a single league to play with. Analogies with different leageus have no bearing on how the SFL choose to act.)

I may be wrong but when we first went into admin were we not in the SPL?

Yes you were. I think it's nonetheless legitimate for the SFL to take into account aht it's your second administration in a short space of time even if you didn't fall within their jurisdiction at the time of the first one. Though I stress that's a personal opinion and there's no particular suggestion that that influenced their thinking.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Yoss

[ayrmad]

Again, we're going over old ground here, but they were in legal insolvency procedures that fall well within the scope of the SFL's rule to that that effect.

(Edit: In any case I was answering, with that comment, your point that they're not doing anything different to anyone else, rather than commenting directly on the SFL's action.)

(And, as already noted above, Hearts are in the SPL who only have a single league to play with. Analogies with different leageus have no bearing on how the SFL choose to act.)

Yes you were. I think it's nonetheless legitimate for the SFL to take into account aht it's your second administration in a short space of time even if you didn't fall within their jurisdiction at the time of the first one. Though I stress that's a personal opinion and there's no particular suggestion that that influenced their thinking.

I thought Gretna were in the SPL and finished bottom,like Hearts could find themselves,then it'll be 3rd div for them then,all the 2nd div teams will be throwing games to get relegated if that scenario appears on the horizon.

[Airdrie76]

What I don't understand is how, when the club is still in some form of administration / insolvency practitionership, they are [1] signing new players (like Winters...), and [2] fielding triallists (like McNeil...). They are out of the cups, so how does the club spending money signing more players help the creditors? Why can't these wages/expenses being paid out have gone to the creditors?

Livi fans have taken a new consortium hook, line and sinker for the 4th (5th?) time... but where is the evidence they can make full-time football in West Lothian pay its way? What has changed...?

In the local paper today it says Winters was invited for a trial with Airdrie late last week with a view to him being involved against Dundee. He lasted all of one day before going to Livi where he signed a contract. Full time. In Division 3.

If their appeal doesn't work I don't think Livi will be coming out of admin. It has to be all eggs in one basket time over at Almondvale surely!?

It's happening all over though isn't it. Livi signing players they can't afford!

Meanwhile their ostrich support ignore warnings regarding the likes of bookie/property developer/worse dressed man in Scotland Neil Rankine and continue to moan at how unfair life is.

[Guest]

Am I the only one who thinks this will cause chaos?

Well if I were a business struggling along in a property rented from the council, and the council weren't prepared to see my reduced income as justification for a big reduction in rent, then I'd be consulting a solicitor. I love how the council leader is backing the new owners because they are investing substantial sums of money in the club, and then says he hopes the council manage to get some of their money back. How thick is the guy to publically allude to the fact that LFC having new investors is more important to him than him recovering public funds. What a silly move. It should come back to haunt him pretty soon. It's the closest he has come to saying the council motives were to get rid of Massone rather than moving to recover public funds. It looks as if the council wanted someone else pulling the strings at LFC. I wonder why?

[Guest]

In the local paper today it says Winters was invited for a trial with Airdrie late last week with a view to him being involved against Dundee. He lasted all of one day before going to Livi where he signed a contract. Full time. In Division 3.

If their appeal doesn't work I don't think Livi will be coming out of admin. It has to be all eggs in one basket time over at Almondvale surely!?

It's happening all over though isn't it. Livi signing players they can't afford!

Meanwhile their ostrich support ignore warnings regarding the likes of bookie/property developer/worse dressed man in Scotland Neil Rankine and continue to moan at how unfair life is.

It's amazing, isn't it. I think they signed someone from Ipswich(?) on a two year full time contract too. Indirectly, you might well find that the council's new "rent" is effectively bankrolling the playing staff of a privately owned company. The rent was £150,000 a year..............but it was never paid. Now, I wonder how much it is? I wonder of the council actually want the general public to know? I doubt it very much!!

Edited September 2, 2009 by Guest

[Aberdeen Cowden]

I am certainly not,nor do I aspire to be a saint.

How the fcuk can an adult be terrified that their football team will be relegated?

It's a game of football it doesn't pay my bills or change my life in anyway wether Ayr get fcuked every week or not.

You are just desperate to stay in a higher league.

You are the desperate one pal - most Cowden fans not happy about how they were "promoted"

We had a team which could have done well in the third but not the second. We still cannot sign anyone as we cannot be sure which league we will be in. Meantime the gangsters are throwing about full-time contracts like they were going out of fashion. We just have to get on with it.

Maybe we'll see you in the second div. next season - you don't seem fussed whether your teams wins or gets fcuked - aye right.

[Yoss]

I thought Gretna were in the SPL and finished bottom,like Hearts could find themselves,then it'll be 3rd div for them then,all the 2nd div teams will be throwing games to get relegated if that scenario appears on the horizon.

Gretna were in the SPL when they entered administration, they were still in it and were unable to guarantee completing their fixtures when they became an SFL club that summer. It was the SFL who demoted them to division three.

I don't even understand your last point. It's happened twice, and teams have been dealt with accordingly. If it shoudl start happening to half a dozen clubs every year then clearly there'd be wider issues that would need looking it. It's a bit silly imagining such a scenario at this stage as if it prevents you from acting on the situation you're faced with.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Livi weren't in administration when they were demoted.

If Hearts find themselves in the same situation as Gretna were in there is no way they'd be demoted to the 3rd,anyone that thinks that is ever going to happen is off their head.

When Celtic many moons ago were toying with relegation for a few months the words no relegation this season were being uttered.

We don't have enough biggish teams to bomb everyone down the leagues.

1. They were in Interim Administration, which is still a contravention of the rules i believe, ie part of Insolvency Proceedings.

2. Of course they won't be demoted to the 3rd. They are under the auspices of the SPL, which has a procedure set in stone.

3. You're getting desperate now.

4. Livi were not demoted for being in Interim Administration. They failed to submit to a previously promised bond, which is by far the most likely reason.

We've been over all this before in this thread Ayrmad. Only a few pages back in fact.

I can only assume you have the attention span of a goldfish, or more likely, are shit-stirring.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

I was told the bond was definately produced at the meeting but knocked back by the SFL, Why this has not been announced publicly I don't know.

[jimbo]

4. Livi were not demoted for being in Interim Administration. They failed to submit to a previously promised bond, which is by far the most likely reason.

Like Phantom's Livi Lass I am not unduly upset at playing in Division 3. I am content watching my team compete wherever they find themselves on a Saturday and to be honest it can be more pleasant than the cut throat, segregated, almost strip search you at the gate, pay an arm and a leg to get in, SPL. Also like P-l-l, I don’t take issue with the need for suitable punishment.

However the point I have quoted does make me wonder about the motives and integrity of the sfl management committee. The interim manager (an insolvency practitioner!) was asked if he could guarantee that Livi would complete all games in Division 1. He would have been a very brave insolvency practitioner if he had said yes to this question. The new Livi chairman who could have given that assurance was standing outside the room having been barred from entering and was never asked. Livi were also given a week to get together £750k as a bond of guarantee. If asked, I have to wonder how many current Division 1 clubs would be able to set aside such a sum. It was my understanding that Livi were actually in a position to do this. I am not sure however if it was ready on the day.

That Livi are guilty of shady practice over a number of years cannot be refuted and certainly won’t be by me. However let’s not ignore the fact that what goes on in the committee rooms at Hampden is not always transparent or whiter than white. There is something that smells surrounding this whole situation and it is not all coming from those based at Almondvale.

Edited September 2, 2009 by jimbo

[Airdrie76]

Livi were also given a week to get together £750k as a bond of guarantee. If asked, I have to wonder how many current Division 1 clubs would be able to set aside such a sum.

Why does this keep getting repeated? Other clubs weren't/aren't in administration. That's the whole point. There is no reason to doubt that they will not complete their schedule fixtures. Livi on the hand.... hence why the bond was asked for. To compensate for if you go t1 ts up AGAIN. Which may still happen if your appeal fails!

[Doctor Chist]

It's amazing, isn't it. I think they signed someone from Ipswich(?) on a two year full time contract too. Indirectly, you might well find that the council's new "rent" is effectively bankrolling the playing staff of a privately owned company. The rent was £150,000 a year..............but it was never paid. Now, I wonder how much it is? I wonder of the council actually want the general public to know? I doubt it very much!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would this not be available under The Freedom Of Information Act 2000?