Livingston - all the threads merged

[MCL]

Y'see, it's the "almost" word that doesn't work for most right minded people. The point deduction isn't really any sort of punishment whatsoever. Relegation most certainly is. I don't think it's too clever to pass a judgement which says "we are almost certainly going to punish you".

LFC are (as someone else mentioned) a magnet for crooks and comic singers. Until such time as LFC is given a clear message that their behaviour isn't acceptable, then it will keep on happening.

There's a piece in a local paper quoting the illustrious council leader of West Lothian. Forme at least, if further re-inforces who the players are. Look beyond the political bollox, and there is some interesting stuff in there....................

Published Date: 01 September 2009

WEST Lothian Council has agreed to take steps to support senior football in the area.

Earlier this year the council took Livingston Football Club, which has been reported as being £1.7 million in debt, to court for unpaid rent, which resulted in the club being put into administration.

Council Leader Peter Johnston said: "We believe that senior football is important to West Lothian.

"Regrettably what we inherited was an historic arrangement, made in 2005, which allowed the club to pay its rent a year in arrears. It is well documented that the council tried to help the club through a financially difficult period by providing a debt repayment schedule. When this failed we had no alternative to court action to seek to recover the rent due.

"The council's court action made it clear that the previous ownership had run up substantial debts and had no funds to repay these. The options then were for the club to go into liquidation, and with no assets the council would not have received any funds at all. The most positive option, and the council's aim, is that West Lothian's state of the art stadium is used for senior football.

"We have decided to work with the Administrator and the new owners who are prepared to put substantial sums of their own money into providing a new start for Livingston FC. We believe this is a far better option than forcing the club into liquidation. Like other creditors we hope that, in due course, the Administrator will be able to make partial repayment of the sums due to us."

The revised rent will be payable monthly in advance by Direct Debit at a level which reflects the Division the Football Club is in for the season.

The rent and non-domestic rates are both the subject of a claim submitted to the Administrator of Livingston Football Club.

I wonder if the Council Leader likes a wee bet now and again ???

[ayrmad]

OK so we assume everyone that hasn't been caught is cheating - get real! Nugget.

No we don't,we put rules and pre-established punishments in place so EVERY TEAM is treated equally,then we'll not get into situations similar to this one.

Does that mean it's OK then?

No it doesn't,will Hearts be relegated to the 3rd when Romanov gets bored?

they will be dealt with one would hope.

All teams will not be treated equally.

Don't get personal! must have some truth in the last comment!

A year to get your house in order is my preferred way of dealing with it,and if 20 points is not enough then deduct as many points as is required for relegation,don't cut an already struggling clubs finances by 60%+.

Yes, maybe but your are hoping that Livi will be a bit worse - suspect Airdrie have more chance of staying up than Livi -20points!

I'm hoping nothing of the kind,what part of I'd prefer to be competitive don't you understand.

I've been consistent with this,my comments at the end of the season regarding Ayr and Airdrie have been consistent with this viewpoint.

[nofixedability]

If Livingston were getting treated unfairly (they're not in my opinion) then there would be a certain amount of justice in the world given how that football club has treated numerous players, managers, suppliers over the past few years.

[ayrmad]

If Livingston were getting treated unfairly (they're not in my opinion) then there would be a certain amount of justice in the world given how that football club has treated numerous players, managers, suppliers over the past few years.

Others Motherwell for one have done the same,the SPL thinks 10 pts is enough of a deduction for similar behaviour now.

[Aberdeen Cowden]

No we don't,we put rules and pre-established punishments in place so EVERY TEAM is treated equally,then we'll not get into situations similar to this one.

Correct - we have to hope this is the case

No it doesn't,will Hearts be relegated to the 3rd when Romanov gets bored?

If they get into the same mess as Livi - why not?

All teams will not be treated equally.

We have to hope they will - if you go through life thinking that way what hope is there?

A year to get your house in order is my preferred way of dealing with it,and if 20 points is not enough then deduct as many points as is required for relegation,don't cut an already struggling clubs finances by 60%+.

I think they have had more than ayear - but that's irrelevant.

I'm hoping nothing of the kind,what part of I'd prefer to be competitive don't you understand.

"I'd prefer"

I've been consistent with this,my comments at the end of the season regarding Ayr and Airdrie have been consistent with this viewpoint.

You mean since Ayr were promoted - nothing like a cushion!

[phantoms-livi-lass]

If Livingston were getting treated unfairly (they're not in my opinion) then there would be a certain amount of justice in the world given how that football club has treated numerous players, managers, suppliers over the past few years.

In other words; if it was ANYONE other than Livi you would be agreeing with Ayrmad?

[Jacobite_Dundee]

How on earth hasn't this been resolved yet? If I propose to print some defamatory comments in a daily newspaper tomorrow morning, a court can be put together tonight to decide on whether an interdict is to be granted to stop publication.

This was also an instance where a speedy decision was needed, and we seem to have got nowhere. Get a few independent great and the good together, hear the appeal, impliment the consequences.

I suppose if Livi win the appeal there's the benefit of a few more floodlit midweek matches. And I like floodlit midweek matches. Though Wednesdays are better for me than Tuesdays, if anyone's listening.

[Airdrie76]

Others Motherwell for one have done the same,the SPL thinks 10 pts is enough of a deduction for similar behaviour now.

The SPL are not the SFL though. Similarly the SFL will have nothing to do with the Hearts decision unless they are relegated.

Livi are repeat offenders at administration and the majority of clubs feel the punishment is correct. The rules state they decide so I'm not entirely sure why you are so against the decision?

Are we to believe it's just because you hate "injustices" or is there something else going on?

[Aberdeen Cowden]

The SPL are not the SFL though. Similarly the SFL will have nothing to do with the Hearts decision unless they are relegated.

Livi are repeat offenders at administration and the majority of clubs feel the punishment is correct. The rules state they decide so I'm not entirely sure why you are so against the decision?

Are we to believe it's just because you hate "injustices" or is there something else going on?

We either have a Saint here or someone who is terrified Ayr will finish bottom!

Take your pick.

[nofixedability]

In other words; if it was ANYONE other than Livi you would be agreeing with Ayrmad?

If any other club had done what Livi have done over the past decade or so, yes I would say they deserved the punishment Livingston received and a whole lot more. Personally, I think they should have been kicked out of the SFL and that they got off very lightly.

My own club, Forfar, has pretty much lived within it's means for its entire history. Yes we have had and still had debt but it was always within the realms of real life. It would have been easy to run up stacks of debt as we bought our way up the leagues, buying players we couldn't afford to pay, managers we couldn't afford to pay in a stadium we couldn't afford to play in. Chasing the dream. But we, and many others didn't. A couple of seasons ago due to being skint we ended up in consecutive seasons bottom of division 2 then bottom of division 3, it hurt like hell but at least it was honest, we were there because our finances couldn't afford any more than that, we even implemented a policy that we only signed players from the local area, all because that was all we could afford at the time.

Livingston brought in players they had no right to given their relative finances, they refused to pay creditors in full (still are I understand) and have generally treated people like crap. Broad statement I know, but that has been my experience with them so I'll stick with it.

And how did Livingston react to being told their model was a financial disaster? They mocked other lower league clubs as unambitious and accused them of holding them back as if these clubs that were in the wrong by not wanted the precious SPL2 of Flynn, et al.

Whatever McIntyre has or has not done the vote a month or so ago indicated that the vast majority of clubs in the SFL do not back Livinston's appeal and do not think they have been harshly dealt with. Livingston signed up to be a part of the SFL, if they don't want to perhaps they should resign and try to join some other association that would want them and would treat them as they should be treated.

[HibeeJibee]

I suppose if Livi win the appeal there's the benefit of a few more floodlit midweek matches. And I like floodlit midweek matches. Though Wednesdays are better for me than Tuesdays, if anyone's listening.

What should happen, however is that Livi (and other displaced clubs...) should be made to catch up as soon as possible - i.e. play 5 or 6 midweeks consecutively to catch up. It's patently unfair on the other clubs, and the league more generally, if Livi etc. get the whole season to catch up.

[Yoss]

There will be nothing that others aren't doing.

All of this stuff has been gone over many times in the thread already, but just to note that that statement is simply untrue, no one else has had two administrations in recent years.

As for equality of treatment, there have been two occasions (both in the last two years) when teams in administration have been unable to guarantee, prior to the start of a season, that they'd be able to complete it. Both were placed in division three and yes I see no reason to suppose the same wouldn't happen to anyone in the SFL.

(How the SPL would deal with it I have no idea, but that's not relevant.)

Edited September 2, 2009 by Yoss

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Okay Livi have been through two administrations in the last few years, but where does it outline the proposed punishment for this crime? Is it in the rules that whenever a new situation arises you can therefore re-punish for the past errors? Should each case not be dealt with individually or should we be taken out & shot at dawn because it happened before?

Just to add, You all know that I quite happily accepted the given punishment but I can see where the people are coming from that don't accept it, there seems to be a lot more to this than meets the eye.

[HibeeJibee]

Okay Livi have been through two administrations in the last few years, but where does it outline the proposed punishment for this crime? Is it in the rules that whenever a new situation arises you can therefore re-punish for the past errors? Should each case not be dealt with individually or should we be taken out & shot at dawn because it happened before?

Well in principal yes!! If someone gets caught for burglary, they might get a couple of months in prison. If they get caught for burglary again a couple of month after their release, maybe they get 6 months in prison. If they get caught again a few months after relase, 12 months. And so on...

Previous offences of a similar nature should always be taken into account, both in law and in football. If every time Livingston FC go into administration, they receive punishment as if it was the first time, there is less incentive not to do it again. And Livi have a terrible financial record.

Just to add, You all know that I quite happily accepted the given punishment but I can see where the people are coming from that don't accept it, there seems to be a lot more to this than meets the eye.

Livi have in effect got lucky, in that [1] the SFL Management Committee tried to let you off with a slap on the wrist to avoid re-jigging the leagues... only for their member clubs to find it totally unacceptable; and [2] this McIntyre business has blown up. Had the SFL MC demoted you from the off, and had McIntyre not been an addictive gambler, Livi wouldn't have a leg to stand on...

Edited September 2, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Yes I do feel my club has luck on it's side????

Various crazy nutters, severe finacial mismanagement from said nutters, yes it's been a delightful journey for the average Livi fan!

[vikingTON]

Yes I do feel my club has luck on it's side????

Various crazy nutters, severe finacial mismanagement from said nutters, yes it's been a delightful journey for the average Livi fan!

Well perhaps you lot could stop burying your head in the sand every time another chancer comes in, and actually challenge them to a sustainable business plan. You didn't for Keane, didn't for Flynn, didn't for Massone and are not now for your latest bunch of crooks. It really is screamingly obvious.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Well perhaps you lot could stop burying your head in the sand every time another chancer comes in, and actually challenge them to a sustainable business plan. You didn't for Keane, didn't for Flynn, didn't for Massone and are not now for your latest bunch of crooks. It really is screamingly obvious.

Perhaps you could do the honours? We seem to be a bit thick in Livi!

[vikingTON]

We seem to be a bit thick in Livi!

Pushing an open door here on that point.

[Aberdeen Cowden]

If any other club had done what Livi have done over the past decade or so, yes I would say they deserved the punishment Livingston received and a whole lot more. Personally, I think they should have been kicked out of the SFL and that they got off very lightly.

My own club, Forfar, has pretty much lived within it's means for its entire history. Yes we have had and still had debt but it was always within the realms of real life. It would have been easy to run up stacks of debt as we bought our way up the leagues, buying players we couldn't afford to pay, managers we couldn't afford to pay in a stadium we couldn't afford to play in. Chasing the dream. But we, and many others didn't. A couple of seasons ago due to being skint we ended up in consecutive seasons bottom of division 2 then bottom of division 3, it hurt like hell but at least it was honest, we were there because our finances couldn't afford any more than that, we even implemented a policy that we only signed players from the local area, all because that was all we could afford at the time.

Livingston brought in players they had no right to given their relative finances, they refused to pay creditors in full (still are I understand) and have generally treated people like crap. Broad statement I know, but that has been my experience with them so I'll stick with it.

And how did Livingston react to being told their model was a financial disaster? They mocked other lower league clubs as unambitious and accused them of holding them back as if these clubs that were in the wrong by not wanted the precious SPL2 of Flynn, et al.

Whatever McIntyre has or has not done the vote a month or so ago indicated that the vast majority of clubs in the SFL do not back Livinston's appeal and do not think they have been harshly dealt with. Livingston signed up to be a part of the SFL, if they don't want to perhaps they should resign and try to join some other association that would want them and would treat them as they should be treated.

Couldn't agree more. Livi are apparently still offering full-time contracts - how can that be?

[Yoss]

Okay Livi have been through two administrations in the last few years, but where does it outline the proposed punishment for this crime? Is it in the rules that whenever a new situation arises you can therefore re-punish for the past errors? Should each case not be dealt with individually or should we be taken out & shot at dawn because it happened before?

Just to add, You all know that I quite happily accepted the given punishment but I can see where the people are coming from that don't accept it, there seems to be a lot more to this than meets the eye.

You're again making the mistake of thinking of this as a punishment for administration, which is not the line the SFL took.

No such punishment is outlined, as you know. Personally I think it being your second one does make a difference and the punishment should reflect that, but interestingly the SFL don't seem to ahve seen it that way. In fact in terms of punitive measure they don't seem to have been that bothered at all, and were prepared to let you remain in division one, maybe with a points deduction, if the relevant guarantees could be provided.

The action that's been taken, as with Gretna last year, was not a punishment but a pragmatic measure to deal with clubs in the absence of such guarantees.