Livingston - all the threads merged

[jimbo]

They can have all the good guys they like. Their "board" is not a democracy. The council may have effectively given the chancers the green light to progress to the last bit of asset stripping, (so you have to work who could benefit from this kind of action). Why was the council keen to recover public cash when Massone was in charge to the point where they took them to court, but now, things have changed.....

Why are they not so keen to recover that money now that Rankine and MacDougall are on the scene?

Why do the council have one policy for LFC rent, and a different one for everyone else?

What is Rankine's real passion...........football club development, or property development?

What property could possibly be involved in LFC?

Who owns that property?

Who could help shift that property from the public to the private sector?

Why today would a public sector employee be so active in supporting a private sector company acquire LFC and then seek to make it as easy as possible for them to hold on to a piece of public property?

Who could gain from the transfer of the property from the public to the private sector?

Once in the private sector, how could the value of the property be fully realized?

Think it through Livvy fans. You are being fed a few sugar lumps to keep you happy today. You'll be given the bitter pill to swallow in the fullness of time.

Perhaps being incapable of connecting up the intellectual dots puts us spaniels at the usual disadvantage here. We really need someone with your luminosity and brainpower to lead us forward.

[KingfaetheSooth]

They can have all the good guys they like. Their "board" is not a democracy. The council may have effectively given the chancers the green light to progress to the last bit of asset stripping, (so you have to work who could benefit from this kind of action). Why was the council keen to recover public cash when Massone was in charge to the point where they took them to court, but now, things have changed.....

Why are they not so keen to recover that money now that Rankine and MacDougall are on the scene?

Why do the council have one policy for LFC rent, and a different one for everyone else?

What is Rankine's real passion...........football club development, or property development?

What property could possibly be involved in LFC?

Who owns that property?

Who could help shift that property from the public to the private sector?

Why today would a public sector employee be so active in supporting a private sector company acquire LFC and then seek to make it as easy as possible for them to hold on to a piece of public property?

Who could gain from the transfer of the property from the public to the private sector?

Once in the private sector, how could the value of the property be fully realized?

Think it through Livvy fans. You are being fed a few sugar lumps to keep you happy today. You'll be given the bitter pill to swallow in the fullness of time.

It's going to sound like I'm having another pop here, or that I want Livingston to fail. The latter, at least, is not true, I really do hope they can sort themselves out.

But, alarm bells should be ringing all over the place here. You would think, after having a whole string of saviours in the past who all left you in the lurch, that some degree of credulity would be applied to the current lot, but there's no signs of it so far, just blind trust that he knows what he's doing. And maybe he does, or at least he's a considerable improvement on Massone, but then that's not exactly setting the bar high.

Successful businessmen tend to be full of confidence, and almost invariable assume that their success is down to their own merits and business acumen without necessarily acknowledging that there's often a huge amount of luck involved, and no particular reason to suppose that that luck will stay with them in any future ventures. Simon Jordan and Mike Ashley would be two obvious examples from people who've ventured into the world of footie. McDougall and Rankine have already worked within football so they're notploughing in quite so naively into a new industry in anything like the same way. Nonetheless, anyone assuming that because McDougall has achieved (relative) success at Cowdenbeath that everything's going to be fine, without paying any attention to the available evidence, has not learned any of the lessons from the past few years and may well find themselves with a nasty shock coming sooner rather than later.

The early signs are that the consortium have made at least some miscalculations - at the time the consortium made the initial commitment (in buying Massone's shares) Livi were a first division club and their sums were based on that. Granted, they could have pulled out subsequently but it's very difficult for people to write something off once they've already made an initial investment. I suspect they've also misestimated the support they'llget from the Livingston public, in either division but especially in the first. It's already pretty clear that the promised policy of living within their means is unsustainable based on their current plan, and their behaviour during the appeals process doesn't smack of great judgement either.

I may have misassessed all that, the SFA might prove me wrong on the last point very soon and maybe they do have some brilliant business plan that will pull full-time levels of income from somewhere without them having to subsidise it. But like I say, if it were me, warning bells would be going off all over the place already for the new regime.

Give up on the Livingston fans ever waking up and smelling the coffee. Their trust has been led by Nixon over recent months - that's all you need to remember. Nixon is now in bed with McDougall and his mate and we also have another couple of shysters in Wilson and Rankine involved. A voted-on trust member is hardly likely to make much of a difference.

The whole thing fucking stinks of a property deal with WLC being in on the act too.

[Guest]

Perhaps being incapable of connecting up the intellectual dots puts us spaniels at the usual disadvantage here. We really need someone with your luminosity and brainpower to lead us forward.

Nah, I'll grant you a bit of "exception" status Jimbo. I think you are well capable of joining up the dots, but don't really want to. Just don't go chasing every stick that is thrown............and there will be quite a few.

If you think that what is in place now is whiter than white, and has nothing but the most honourable of intentions because they love LFC so damned much, then join the masses as you "move forward". You always have the safety net of Ged Nixon who probably has a blemish free business record, so you'll be fine.

Your supporters now have all the bright lights and brainpower that they think they need. No need to ask questions or have concerns about what the hell is going on. Us non Livvy fans have never called it correctly before, so we are not going to start getting it right now......

I genuinely think you know what is about to happen. You already see a good few expecting MacDougall and Rankine to splash a bit of cash. They really haven't done their homework have they?

[phantoms-livi-lass]

I have no blind faith in this board, after all the past 'hall of horrors' chairmen I'm afraid I will watch & wait for them to prove themselves before I comment. I must admit to Rankine being there as the most worrying part of it though, for me, the way Airdrie fans went on he sounded worse than Massone.

[RedV]

I have no blind faith in this board, after all the past 'hall of horrors' chairmen I'm afraid I will watch & wait for them to prove themselves before I comment. I must admit to Rankine being there as the most worrying part of it though, for me, the way Airdrie fans went on he sounded worse than Massone.

You're overestimating Rankine's involvement at Airdrie. His claims about what he did or didn't do at Airdrie are the stuff of fantasy.

He is a complete chancer who saw a glimpse of a chance to acquire some property on the cheap. He failed utterly, but he wasn't in charge of Airdrie.

[LIVIFOREVER]

It's going to sound like I'm having another pop here, or that I want Livingston to fail. The latter, at least, is not true, I really do hope they can sort themselves out.

But, alarm bells should be ringing all over the place here. You would think, after having a whole string of saviours in the past who all left you in the lurch, that some degree of credulity would be applied to the current lot, but there's no signs of it so far, just blind trust that he knows what he's doing. And maybe he does, or at least he's a considerable improvement on Massone, but then that's not exactly setting the bar high.

Successful businessmen tend to be full of confidence, and almost invariable assume that their success is down to their own merits and business acumen without necessarily acknowledging that there's often a huge amount of luck involved, and no particular reason to suppose that that luck will stay with them in any future ventures. Simon Jordan and Mike Ashley would be two obvious examples from people who've ventured into the world of footie. McDougall and Rankine have already worked within football so they're notploughing in quite so naively into a new industry in anything like the same way. Nonetheless, anyone assuming that because McDougall has achieved (relative) success at Cowdenbeath that everything's going to be fine, without paying any attention to the available evidence, has not learned any of the lessons from the past few years and may well find themselves with a nasty shock coming sooner rather than later.

The early signs are that the consortium have made at least some miscalculations - at the time the consortium made the initial commitment (in buying Massone's shares) Livi were a first division club and their sums were based on that. Granted, they could have pulled out subsequently but it's very difficult for people to write something off once they've already made an initial investment. I suspect they've also misestimated the support they'llget from the Livingston public, in either division but especially in the first. It's already pretty clear that the promised policy of living within their means is unsustainable based on their current plan, and their behaviour during the appeals process doesn't smack of great judgement either.

I may have misassessed all that, the SFA might prove me wrong on the last point very soon and maybe they do have some brilliant business plan that will pull full-time levels of income from somewhere without them having to subsidise it. But like I say, if it were me, warning bells would be going off all over the place already for the new regime.

Yip and they made Massone the offer for his shares after the first SFL meeting, where they were assured we'd remain a 1st div club.

I agree with you on their business plan, i've no idea what it is as i've not seen it, but theres no way we can remain FT even in the 1st div with an att of 1400 (going on last years average att in the 1st Div) let alone what could be 800 att in the 3rd Div. I'd imagine we'd need over 2,000 home gates to have a chance, that plus decent sponsorship, which we have none as yet, with our main sponsor leaving us earlier this year.

I'm glad we're still here, but extremely wary and sceptical that we can remain FT, i'm watching with interest over the next month to see where we're heading in that respect.

[HibeeJibee]

Give up on the Livingston fans ever waking up and smelling the coffee. Their trust has been led by Nixon over recent months - that's all you need to remember. Nixon is now in bed with McDougall and his mate and we also have another couple of shysters in Wilson and Rankine involved. A voted-on trust member is hardly likely to make much of a difference.

Re. Nixon: is he now an employee of the club? Does he have shares? Will he still head the Trust?

[vikingTON]

When Morton were taken over by the current chairman we ran part full-time in the Third Division for the title-winning season AFAIK, with gates towards maybe 1700.

We certainly didn't break even that year, and with increasing budgets in the Second we didn't break even with gates towards the region of 2600. It's unsustainable in the bottom tiers. Running full-time is with the aim to run up debt (or have it writtten off by a benefactor) with the aim of pushing back into the First.

I for one doubt whether Livingston have the size to employ the economies of scale for that to be successful. It took us five years and we had far bigger gates to soak up losses.

Edited August 17, 2009 by vikingTON

[LIVIFOREVER]

With Livi out of both SFL cups: even if crowds of 1,500 turn up each home game I'm perturbed as to the viability of full-time football. Let us give huge benefits of doubt: and say that all ticket cash is pure profit on the day (i.e. match/ball sponsorship, hospitality, pie sales etc. covers match-day running costs, buses for away games, etc.). £10 ticket average/2 home games a month = £30k a month profit = can spend £7.5k a week. Squad of 20 earning just £300 a week each (£15k year) on average is going to use up £6k. Leaves £1.5k per week for rent, staffing, bills, costs, taxes etc.

If McGruther isn't allowed to leave the club running at a loss... where is the "extra profit" to break even coming from? And as I say - that's on hypothetical crowds of 1,500 and decent sponsorship.

EDIT TO ADD: And presuming no STs and most pay adult price. Which is very generous from me.

Livi can run at a loss in Div 3, with the aim of promotion... why should they be allowed to do that?

I agree, also we have 300 ST's bought when Massone was in charge, the money for them is lost revenue that can't be included in this seasons budget, so we're minus 300 before you even start counting on what our att is.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

You're overestimating Rankine's involvement at Airdrie. His claims about what he did or didn't do at Airdrie are the stuff of fantasy.

He is a complete chancer who saw a glimpse of a chance to acquire some property on the cheap. He failed utterly, but he wasn't in charge of Airdrie.

So are you saying if he had the power there would have been a possible differant outcome?

[AND180Y]

Nah, I'll grant you a bit of "exception" status Jimbo. I think you are well capable of joining up the dots, but don't really want to. Just don't go chasing every stick that is thrown............and there will be quite a few.

If you think that what is in place now is whiter than white, and has nothing but the most honourable of intentions because they love LFC so damned much, then join the masses as you "move forward". You always have the safety net of Ged Nixon who probably has a blemish free business record, so you'll be fine.

Your supporters now have all the bright lights and brainpower that they think they need. No need to ask questions or have concerns about what the hell is going on. Us non Livvy fans have never called it correctly before, so we are not going to start getting it right now......

I genuinely think you know what is about to happen. You already see a good few expecting MacDougall and Rankine to splash a bit of cash. They really haven't done their homework have they?

The information is out there, however there are none so blind as them that cannot see. (or fail to look)

[RedV]

So are you saying if he had the power there would have been a possible differant outcome?

Who knows? He certainly wasn't in it for the love of Airdrieonians. Or football, for that matter.

[qpsnapper]

I agree, also we have 300 ST's bought when Massone was in charge, the money for them is lost revenue that can't be included in this seasons budget, so we're minus 300 before you even start counting on what our att is.

Jesus, 300 people bought a season ticket while that fruitcake was still around?

Are they mental?

[Skinheed]

Yip and they made Massone the offer for his shares after the first SFL meeting, where they were assured we'd remain a 1st div club.

I agree with you on their business plan, i've no idea what it is as i've not seen it, but theres no way we can remain FT even in the 1st div with an att of 1400 (going on last years average att in the 1st Div) let alone what could be 800 att in the 3rd Div. I'd imagine we'd need over 2,000 home gates to have a chance, that plus decent sponsorship, which we have none as yet, with our main sponsor leaving us earlier this year.

I'm glad we're still here, but extremely wary and sceptical that we can remain FT, i'm watching with interest over the next month to see where we're heading in that respect.

Would you sponsor them??

[LIVIFOREVER]

Would you sponsor them??

Going to be difficult finding anyone willing to sponsor us at present, i've not even bought a ST yet, so can't see folk queueing up to sponsor us. Everything is still a bit vague with the new board, we are not certain what league we're playing in (will most likely be the 3rd Div), so ST's and sponsorships can't really be chased.

Will take time and hard work to get a certain amount of goodwill and trust back for Livi FC, also honesty and proving that they (the board) are honest is going to be imperative, that will only happen through the course of their actions this season.

[nofixedability]

RE: Livi remaining full time.

So basically nothing has changed here, the club will continue to live outwith their means and rack up more debt in an effort to jump up the leagues unfairly while other, better run, financially prudent clubs do not see any on field benefit from that.

Then in one/two/three years when this mob that run Livinston pull the plug we will go through this procedure again. Livingston will screw anyone that was stupid enough to give them credit (surely no-one in Scotland is that daft?) and they can start again.

[Homer Thompson]

RE: Livi remaining full time.

So basically nothing has changed here, the club will continue to live outwith their means and rack up more debt in an effort to jump up the leagues unfairly while other, better run, financially prudent clubs do not see any on field benefit from that.

Then in one/two/three years when this mob that run Livinston pull the plug we will go through this procedure again. Livingston will screw anyone that was stupid enough to give them credit (surely no-one in Scotland is that daft?) and they can start again.

Almost. Except in a few years time the stadium and surrounding land will be sold to pay off the debts and make the Livy5 a tidy profit ... if you believe the conspiracy theorists, anyway.

[Monster]

Almost. Except in a few years time the stadium and surrounding land will be sold to pay off the debts and make the Livy5 a tidy profit ... if you believe the conspiracy theorists, anyway.

With the team full-time, winning the Third and Second Divisions in order to distract the punters from asking any awkward questions?

Sounds familiar, to be honest....

[LIVIFOREVER]

RE: Livi remaining full time.

So basically nothing has changed here, the club will continue to live outwith their means and rack up more debt in an effort to jump up the leagues unfairly while other, better run, financially prudent clubs do not see any on field benefit from that.

Then in one/two/three years when this mob that run Livinston pull the plug we will go through this procedure again. Livingston will screw anyone that was stupid enough to give them credit (surely no-one in Scotland is that daft?) and they can start again.

Nope, where do you get that from?

The board has stated that def wont happen and we will run the club within its means.

However they will have to realise remaining FT isn't going to be an option, as going by VT post we'll need upwards of 2,600 home gates plus decent sponsorship. The boards not set out what will be Livi's plan for the season, we're still all over the place waiting on appeals, but i just can't see us being able to sustain a FT team in any Div on our current wage structure, a lot of work still needs to be done and i'm sure the board know that.

Edited August 17, 2009 by LIVIFOREVER

[EdinburghLivi]

I highly doubt we will be running full-time. If anyone actually did say it, I expect it was bravado on the basis that we would definetely win our appeal.