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Livingston - all the threads merged


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An alternative to the Livingston are appealing because they know they can win at the SFA level scenario would be that they are appealing because they believe they have no chance of getting a CVA approved in a third division context and these appeals are seen as their only chance to stave off liquidation.

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Having a change of mind I now hope LIvi take SFL to the cleaners and perhaps we can all follow teams under the auspices of a fit and proper organisation.

FWIW if Livi go to the law courts I think the SFL will get their arse felt.

God, you're tedious!

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Having a change of mind I now hope LIvi take SFL to the cleaners and perhaps we can all follow teams under the auspices of a fit and proper organisation.

FWIW if Livi go to the law courts I think the SFL will get their arse felt.

Why?

There's bugger all the law courts can do, because the SFL rules are not illegal.

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Whilst I agree that the double relegation was far too harsh and a points penalty would have sufficed, Livi were punished because McGruther was appointed due to them being insolvent and the council looking to reclaim monies owed..before HMRC did. Although the new owners have come in and been able to purchase the club and hopefully agree a process in which to repay the debt, this was after McGruthers appointment and the initial hearing into the issue, which I believe is why the SFA have taken this action.

As I say, I don't agree with it but I really think Livi should have played last weekend and should reconsider their decision not to play Montrose on Saturday. Even if they were reinstated (slim to no chance of that happenning) theres now a very real chance that any point penalty imposed would be massively increased by non-fulfilment of fixtures.

Having read this morning about Clydes predicament it will be interesting to see how this is handled should they go into admin...but remember, until they do (or have an interim manager appointed!) the SFL can do nothing ;) . I also have a feeling that should they have the Broadwood debt called in then there will be a question as to whether they can actually continue at all or just have to resign from the league. In my mind its a different situation to Livis in a number of ways.

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An alternative to the Livingston are appealing because they know they can win at the SFA level scenario would be that they are appealing because they believe they have no chance of getting a CVA approved in a third division context and these appeals are seen as their only chance to stave off liquidation.

It;s a far more likely scenario than MacDougall being on a campaign that he knows he will win. They have an unsustainable burn rate, and staying in the first division is possibly their only hope of staving off extinction.

I guess it all depends what you think is worse. An inept governing organization with ill defined rules, but which is pretty much benign, and has never instigated an action against a member club without reason, or a football club that doesn't give a sh1t who it stands on so long as it gets what it wants and doesn't have to honour any of the agreements it makes on the way.

One can barely tie its own shoelaces and can be seen to be inept. The other would treat you like shit on its shoe, but runs to the lawyers the minute it perceives it can gain a pound from doing so.

A club without a shred of honour, decency or honesty.

I'll take inept over dishonest any day of the week. That the SFA could ever back Livingston FC is unthinkable. This mean spirited little club need to pay a hefty price for what they have done and what they continue to do. This is now much more about the sport wishing to retain its integrity. Good to see Ged Nixon has quickly backed away from being involved in anything remotely involved with a dignified response. He is no better than what has gone before. Mind you, that was already obvious, as he has wanted the creditors bumped from the get go, but never had the balls to say it.

Edited by Guest
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Might be sorted next week then again might not. I get the impression that Livingston will be back in Division 1 with zero points deduction. No sympathy from me. If the SFL had just docked points the situation would not have occured.

Brilliant. More empty rhetoric and speculation with nothing to back it up, under the guise of being "in the know". You've actually been remarkably consistent in being proved wrong in everything you have said will happen throughout this thread. I don't believe you any more.

Livingston are a third division club, or they are dead. I would lose no sleep over either eventuality after the way they have conducted themselves - tens of fans and scoundrel saviors from Dunfermline - recently.

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Having a change of mind I now hope LIvi take SFL to the cleaners and perhaps we can all follow teams under the auspices of a fit and proper organisation.

FWIW if Livi go to the law courts I think the SFL will get their arse felt.

Based on what?

The SFL have done nothing illegal or against their own rules.

Why don't you change your user name to livimad, you clearly are (in both senses).

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I think it is more of a commercial issue rather than strict interpretation of the rules. None of us on here know what was said and what was delivered or not. If the MC said that they would be in Div 1 if they posted a bond and then went back on that because of a backlash from other clubs (Lead by McInally and Kenny Black!) then if I was in Livi's position I would be very pissed off.

On the other hand, if the Livi consortium couldn't deliver the bond in an acceptable timescale then that is a different matter.

But we do know what happened, the SFL said so and its been quoted on here several times.

McGruther was asked if he could guarantee the club could fulfill all its fixtures in the 1st div next season and he said "no". At that point, the SFL demoted them to the 3rd. I cant remember the exact quote, and I cant be bothered looking it up again, but Im sure the reasoning was something like "felt it gave them the best chance of survival"

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Having a change of mind I now hope LIvi take SFL to the cleaners and perhaps we can all follow teams under the auspices of a fit and proper organisation.

FWIW if Livi go to the law courts I think the SFL will get their arse felt.

I know we disagree on much of this and that's fair enough but I can't understand where you're coming from there at all, on any count.

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Aye you must be gutted about staying up for the 2nd season running due to default.

Did you actually read my post?

I don't claim to speak for every Airdrie supporter, but I imagine most would have been happy to play in the 2nd division this season. The ongoing uncertainty has the potential to wreck our season, regardless of the division we find ourselves in at the end of this shambles.

Let's say that this rumbles on until the end of September. Whilst Livingston's fate remains unresolved, we continue to play fixtures that we know may be expunged, and are unable to add to our squad.

Should Livingston stay down, we find ourselves marrooned at the bottom of the 1st, unable to strengthen until January. If Livingston are restored to the 1st, we find ourselves in the nightmarish scenario of having to play perhaps 8 additional fixtures. That's exactly what we need before winter has even began.

We were favourites to win the 2nd division this season, an outcome that would have us back in the 1st come August 2010.

The longer this goes on, the less cance there is that we'll be in the 1st division come August 2010, for the reasons outlined above.

Re. convinced it will be overturned - why???????

McDougall and Rankine might be tossers, but they're also hard nosed businessmen with friends throughout football. Thay're not doing this for a laugh. Hopefully the SFL expel them for refusing to fulfil their fixtures, but I can't see that happening.

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Ged Nixon in the West Lothian Courier............

“We were all flabbergasted by the decision as we expected a points deduction. The SFL gave us categoric assurances we would be playing First Division football this season. They even posted this on their own website following their meeting on July 31. There was still a discussion about possible penalties but they told us they wanted a bond based upon First Division fixtures, a business plan based upon being a First Division club."

They may feel hard done by, but even a so called verbal? categoric assurance is not worth the paper it is written on. I doubt whether there will be anything in writing to that effect.

Anger and indignation don't win appeals.

On the failure to fulfil fixtures.........

“We offered to play the First Division fixture because going by the rules the minute you appeal the decision stands aside. The status quo prevails so you are deemed to have won your appeal until the vote goes against you and that is the rules. We are a First Division club until they vote against us and the whole situation has been handled very, very poorly."

I think that the situation once an appeal has been lodged has been covered at length on this thread. Status quo prevails once an appeal is lodged or not? If the situation is unclear then Livi may get away without any further punishment.

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On the failure to fulfil fixtures.........

"We offered to play the First Division fixture because going by the rules the minute you appeal the decision stands aside. The status quo prevails so you are deemed to have won your appeal until the vote goes against you and that is the rules. We are a First Division club until they vote against us and the whole situation has been handled very, very poorly."

I think that the situation once an appeal has been lodged has been covered at length on this thread. Status quo prevails once an appeal is lodged or not? If the situation is unclear then Livi may get away without any further punishment.

He's correct.

However, he has grossly misunderstood when the appeal is actually made. It's not when Livi send a letter and a cheque (or whatever); it's when someone actually stood up at yesterday's meeting and said "here is our appeal..." and proceeded to talk.

The rule is clear: the appeal is made to a Special General Meeting. It therefore cannot be made until that meeting is convened...and it wasn't convened until yesterday.

Edited by Sir Calum Melville
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McDougall and Rankine might be tossers, but they're also hard nosed businessmen with friends throughout football. Thay're not doing this for a laugh. Hopefully the SFL expel them for refusing to fulfil their fixtures, but I can't see that happening.

Gordon McDougall is no "tosser" However, why he got involved with Livi still is a mystery. He told me just before he sold Cowden that he was going to put his feet up after all the years of hard work at Central Park (and did he work hard!) I know nothing about the other chap.

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Ged Nixon in the West Lothian Courier............

“We were all flabbergasted by the decision as we expected a points deduction. The SFL gave us categoric assurances we would be playing First Division football this season. They even posted this on their own website following their meeting on July 31. There was still a discussion about possible penalties but they told us they wanted a bond based upon First Division fixtures, a business plan based upon being a First Division club."

They may feel hard done by, but even a so called verbal? categoric assurance is not worth the paper it is written on. I doubt whether there will be anything in writing to that effect.

Anger and indignation don't win appeals.

On the failure to fulfil fixtures.........

“We offered to play the First Division fixture because going by the rules the minute you appeal the decision stands aside. The status quo prevails so you are deemed to have won your appeal until the vote goes against you and that is the rules. We are a First Division club until they vote against us and the whole situation has been handled very, very poorly."

I think that the situation once an appeal has been lodged has been covered at length on this thread. Status quo prevails once an appeal is lodged or not? If the situation is unclear then Livi may get away without any further punishment.

Which wasnt forthcoming. SFL didnt decide that Livy couldnt guarantee 1st div football, as they were requested to do, Livy themselves decided this. At that point, any previous discussions or agreements become irrelevant.

The second quote is just what I said yesterday - interpreting the rules to fit their own agenda. Once the SFL told them to play the 3rd matches thats exactly what they should have done.

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Brilliant. More empty rhetoric and speculation with nothing to back it up, under the guise of being "in the know". You've actually been remarkably consistent in being proved wrong in everything you have said will happen throughout this thread. I don't believe you any more.

Livingston are a third division club, or they are dead. I would lose no sleep over either eventuality after the way they have conducted themselves - tens of fans and scoundrel saviors from Dunfermline - recently.

You did not apoligise when you said i was wrong earlier. You are angry as what i said was true. I offered an opinion nothing about being in the know. Fair to say though that after all this has been done to death-suffice to say Livingston will take their rightful place in division 1-then Mr Pansy you will really have something to bang on about on your big bass drum :D

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Please correct me if i'm wrong (and that may very well be the case as i'm now losing track of whats happenning!) :D

Livi were placed under interim management and the league asked for a meeting to confirm they could complete their fixtures

Livi attended that meeting and McGruther couldn't confirm this (although he said that there were interested parties). Livi were then asked to put up a bond and confirm that all fixtures could be met and were given a week or so to comply

At the second meeting this confirmation was not given and as such the lmc demoted them. McGruther appealed at the 11th hour and didn't play East Stirling the following day.

*at this point the 'Livi 5' still didn't 'own' the club*

At the appeal hearing the decision to relegate was upheld. (new owners now in place as of that morning)

Given that the club wasn't actually in the hands of the new owners until the after the original decision..can they ask for a decision to be overturned based on the situation that was in place when the punishment was applied? :blink:

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