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Livingston - all the threads merged


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Simply unbelievable tonight. For what its worth I reckon Livingston are making a huge mistake by not turning up tomorrow, so much so that if I was in the under-19 squad I would be rallying the troops in an attempt to take matters into my own hands and go and play Shire!

I assume McGruther and the consortium have taken advice before reaching this decision. I can't believe they would make this call without having at least canvassed opinion from around the League. Maybe an independent lawyer has told them not to turn up tomorrow...?

It's a massive risk and I think they've done themselves no favours. They will now be lucky to stay in the SFL in my book.

Spencer Fearn and Jim McInally's comments have been spot on. Livi are the main villains of this farce but the SFL's handling of this has been ridiculous and now one of the best days of the season is completely overshadowed by an issue that should have been dealt with in full by last Thursday at the absolute latest.

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I have a couple of questions which Hibee Jibee or Skyline Drifter might be best placed to answer.

Don't go placing your mortgage of what I say :lol: ... I'm sad enough to get 9 out of 10 right, but I invite Skyline to come along and dispute the 10th ;) ... anyway, here's my interpretation of it.

Is there a limit on the penalty for not fulfilling a fixture? Could the club be expelled for this regardless of whether the administrator has a potential buyer for a 3rd Division Livi?

The SFL can take any action they wish. In history this has happened 5 times...: On 2 occasions (Renton 1894-95, Bo'ness and Armadale in 1932-33) they team was expelled and on 1 occasion (Hamilton in 1999-00) they were deducted 15 points. Dykeshead and Brechin received a warning in 1924-25 [their game was unfulfilled as they ran out of dates before the 30th April deadline] - while no action was taken against Morton v Hearts in 1915-16 due to prevailing War conditions.

28.4 Any club without just cause failing to fulfil its fixture obligations in respect of any such match under the jurisdiction of the League on the appointed date or dates shall for each offence be liable to the deduction of points in respect of a League Championship match, and/or to such other punishment as the Management Committee may determine.

28.4.1 The club failing to fulfil its fixture obligations shall be liable to pay compensation for any expenses actually incurred as a direct result of the failure. The amount of compensation will be decided by the Management Committee.

It should also be noted that there is no right of appeal over a Rule 28 ruling (refer to Rule 76.4).

Edited by HibeeJibee
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I'm neither HJ or SD, but I believe the answer is "yes".

In fact, I think most rules regarding punishments are open enough to allow the SFL to do what they see fit.

Thanks for that. I had a feeling that there were no set penalties.

Oh well, Livi are fucked then - buyer or no buyer!

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The SFL can take any action they wish. In history this has happened 5 times...: On 2 occasions (Renton 1894-95, Bo'ness and Armadale in 1932-33) they team was expelled and on 1 occasion (Hamilton in 1999-00) they were deducted 15 points. Dykeshead and Brechin received a warning in 1924-25 [their game was unfulfilled as they ran out of dates before the 30th April deadline] - while no action was taken against Morton v Hearts in 1915-16 due to prevailing War conditions.

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It should also be noted that there is no right of appeal over a Rule 28 ruling (refer to Rule 76.4).[/size][/font][/size][/font]

You certainly know your rules Sir. Cheers

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It's a question of interpretation, but in my opinion Livingston would clearly be in breah of 123...

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and there might also be a section of Club Licensing... Remember that East Stirlingshire and SFL are also SFA members, and as such Livingston scratching may be an infringement against them.

Let's be quite clear what Livingston scratching from tomorrow's game means, put in context, if they decide to go down that past. I'm only away of such a thing having happend 5 times ever:

  • in 1894-95 Renton refused to turn up for a game versus Dundee Wanderers
  • in 1932-33 Bo'ness and Armadale failed to turn up for games and/or pay gate guarentees
  • in 1999-00 Hamilton failed to turn up for a game v Stenhousemuir due to a players strike

On the first 2 occasions, the clubs were simply expelled. On the latter occasion, fined 15 points.

  • in 1915-16 a game between Morton and Hearts was unplayed (due to transport difficulties resulting from World War I, it was impossible to play the tie before the 30th April cut-off)
  • in 1924-25, Brechin and Dykeshead failed to fulfil a game due to the season running out

If Livingston fail to turn up tomorrow, it can surely only be construed as with the earlier batch of cases. They know about the game, it has been officially fixtured. It isn't the season's end, there is no World War in progress. They are in the Third Division until such time as the SFL MC decision is appealled and over-turned. If they scratch tomorrow's game, then throw the book at them IMO...

This doesn't matter to anything, but as far as I can see Renton didn't suffer any penalty and played on for two or three years afterwards.

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Spencer Fearn and Jim McInally's comments have been spot on. Livi are the main villains of this farce but the SFL's handling of this has been ridiculous and now one of the best days of the season is completely overshadowed by an issue that should have been dealt with in full by last Thursday at the absolute latest.

It was Livingston FC who left it until 4:50pm today to tell the SFL, the media and the fans they weren't turning up tomorrow. Why leave it until then? What could the SFL have done? Nothing...

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This doesn't matter to anything, but as far as I can see Renton didn't suffer any penalty and played on for two or three years afterwards.

My point is really broader - in the entire history of the SFL, a situation like this has occurred on really just 2 occasions (Renton / Hamilton). That's what for me makes Livi's actions so diabolical.

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It was Livingston FC who left it until 4:50pm today to tell the SFL, the media and the fans they weren't turning up tomorrow. Why leave it until then? What could the SFL have done? Nothing...

It may well be the spin placed upon statements, but David Longmuir's 'no question of demotion...' statement last Thursday, followed by a demotion, has fucked the SFL's credibility. Heads need to roll at Hampden, notwithstanding any decision about Livvy.

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Hari kari, also known as sepuku, is an ancient form of ritual suicide that defeated samurai, or those whose shame was 'too unbearable' would use to restore their honor in death. In sepuku, one would take a wakizashi (short sword) and dissembowel oneself. The less noise you made while doing this, the braver you were and therefore the more honorable, however this did not last long as not long after you had begun, a close friend, comrade, or enemy would put you out of your misery by cleaving your head from your shoulders in one swift blow of the katana (another japanese sword). Even though in modern times the prospect of decapitating one of your friends or relatives sounds completely against normal 'friendly' behavior, being asked to asist your friend or enemies' escape from shame was considered a great honor, as was using this as a tool to escape.

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It may well be the spin placed upon statements, but David Longmuir's 'no question of demotion...' statement last Thursday, followed by a demotion, has fucked the SFL's credibility. Heads need to roll at Hampden, notwithstanding any decision about Livvy.

I think we also need a re-write of the rules: both on admin punishment, and on-the-spot action.

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I think we also need a re-write of the rules: both on admin punishment, and on-the-spot action.

Perhaps, one positive may come out of all this: lessons will be learned. I sincerely hope so.

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