Livingston - all the threads merged

[Skyline Drifter]

I think (but not sure) that breaching a player's contract also allows the Management Committee to take any action it deems fit. So, not paying players on time may fall into that category. Think it is Rule 54, but it ties into SFA rules and employment contracts, so you would really need to read everything in order to be certain on whether any action that could be taken.

I would imagine if a player complained to his Union and the employer didn't resolve the issue, it would be up to the SFL to step in and deal with it as it saw fit. It would probably need some form of complaint first, rather than just reports of late payment.

I agree, and I'm also far from certain but I think this would fall to the SFA to investigate, not the SFL.

I'm sure I read a while back that the SPFA were in talks with the SFA about Livingston's players position. I don't think it was the SFL but my memory may be flawed and the original source could equally be confused.

[Ivo den Bieman]

But that's entirely the point. That was the SFA and yes it was to do with licensing. You are using it as an axe to beat the SFL with. They didn't breach any (specific) SFL rules.

I know what Flash is saying but that really covers issues such as interim administration and suchlike which is indeed the point at which the SFL did act. I never said incidentally that they were unable to take action until they went into administration. I said they were unable to do so before McGrouther's appointment, which isn't the same thing. I seriously think the SFL would be making a dangerous precedent if they want to jump in at rumours of non-payment of bills and a few court cases.

Well, I don't agree. technically yes you are right with the SFA / SFL distinction but that would have been enough for me if I were a member of the SFL to intervene at that point. I suspect we're just not going to agree on this one though.

There was nothing in the rules, either, to stop the SFL and the SFA working together to probe Livingston's accounts and put Massone under pressure- that they chose not to do so has led directly to today's situation. I can't really see what dangerous precedent is being set. Submit your accounts in time and nothing happens. It's not hard.

[thejailender]

I see Ross County have not been told officially who they are playing on Saturday.

The following is taken from the Official County Site

Following the decision by the Scottish Football League Management Committee to relegate Livingston to the Third Division, Ross County Football Club await official confirmation that our fixture this Saturday (the 8th of August) will go ahead against Airdrie United.

Ross County Football Club would like to apologise to fans for the uncertainty and confusion surrounding the opening league fixture, but unfortunately the matter is out of our hands. We will endeavour to keep fans updated on any news as and when it happens.

I also see the wee caption at the top for the next game simply reads Next Game T.B.C.

Edited August 6, 2009 by thejailender

[The Old Northerner]

Not so sure. You can talk about history but it's the future you should perhaps focus on.

Livingston were the 'future' 14 years ago.

As we potentially wave goodbye to the second team in the same amount of years, can we really say that the future is rosy.

The future is far from rosy - but Gretna and Livingston are, fundamentally, victims of their own mismanagement rather than any outside influences.

Who will be next and what's the future for the SFL. It needs strong and well supported teams so that it can be a viable alternative to the SPL for local supporters. The SPL likewise needs strong teams who can add to it's appeal as a strong league.

Of course they do. Unfortunately, Livingston have, over the piece, shown themselves to be the opposite of a strong and well supported team.

I can't see the benefit of a team with the potential of Livingston being replaced by the likes of Cove Rangers. Can you?

If Cove don't go tits up with monotonous regularity then I'd say they'd be of more benefit than Livvy and Gretna.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Millfield Marksman

[Skinheed]

Not so sure. You can talk about history but it's the future you should perhaps focus on. As we potentially wave goodbye to the second team in the same amount of years, can we really say that the future is rosy. Who will be next and what's the future for the SFL. It needs strong and well supported teams so that it can be a viable alternative to the SPL for local supporters. The SPL likewise needs strong teams who can add to it's appeal as a strong league. I can't see the benefit of a team with the potential of Livingston being replaced by the likes of Cove Rangers. Can you?

Plenty could see the potential of Airdrie being replaced by Gretna,great decision that eh?

[Guest]

I have already posted my views on whether we deserve punishment etc. Troll back if you must.

The die have been cast and here we now are, on the absolute brink of extinction. I will say this again and will take huge issue with anyone who thinks this is an unjustified viewpoint,

The Scottish Football League (please not the word league) would be a poorer prospect without a senior football team from West Lothian as one of its members. The potential to have a non SPL team diluting the support of the Glasgow and Edinburgh teams is very important for the future of the Scottish game. Unless of course we are all happy to watch the slow demise of the Scottish game, we must support football at a local level.

But as I say here we are. I will take this on the chin and I am now fervently praying that the consortium will now take a 3-5 year hit on their plans. Given our hardcore support and the potential support from West Lothian within the next few decades when we have a bit more history and tradition, this club deserves to be a Division 1 club.

We will have no right to expect instant promotion, look at last Saturday's result for proof of that. But I am not going to accept sitting in Division 3 for a few years. I will be 100% behind the club as we fight to return to Division 1. I want us to be the best supported club in Division 3 home and away. I want our youth system to be producing players that can help us move back up. I want us to be a sustainable club that we can all be proud of. I want other division 3 clubs to look forward to us bringing a large support to their grounds and for them to miss us when we move on up.

But most of all I just want us to take this last chance and wipe away the shambles of the past. If we are out of business, it serves no-one any good. Not us, not the SFL or the member teams, not the creditors nor the businesses of West Lothian and beyond who can in the future profit from asuccessful football team.

We deserved to be punished but please don't let it be the end. That's a victory for no-one.

I guess I won't be posting in this forum as soon as the thread is moved to Division 3 so I bid you all farewell. That said, I'll pop back now and then. How could I survive without the wisdom of VikingTon?

Genius. Truly.

OK, I can live with some of that. The thing is, having a club in the SFL is a priveledge, not a right. Having a club in West Lothian might well be a good thing, but to date, that club being LFC has been a bad thing.

I understand too that you want to be a big fish in a little pond. All things are relative, and where your travelling support in the first and the SPL was bordering on the pitiful, in Div3, it might well look good if it can sustain at 200 or so.

You cannot keep justifying your existance on it being good for creditors. LFC have been pathalogical cheats virtually from day one. That cannot be allowed to carry on unchecked. The club are now tasting a bit of their own medicine, and as can be witnessed on LL, it doesn't taste particularly nice.

You can already see signs of the latest incarnation being anything but a Trust or Community run effort. Most are still talking about external "investment" from Rankine and MacDougall, when history clearly shows that neither invests money into the footballing side of clubs. Neither has any affiliation to LFC. They both however, are attracted to LFC for reasons which have nothing to do with football. Ged Nixon is a great buffer between what they want to do, and what the fans think they are going to do.

No-one is anti the concept of supporting football at a local level. LFC and its support have grossly underestimated the broad based dislike for their club based solely on the actions of the club and elements of its support in years gone by. Supporting a local club is one thing. Having a local club that was arrogant, dismissive of their peers, and utterly corrupt is not the way to garner support for that philosophy.

If Hunter was considered "second chance" at getting it right, Keane considered "third chance", Flynn considered "fourth chance", Massone considered "fifth chance", and Rankine considered "sixth chance", you have to ask yourself why this club is such a magnet for chancers. You are on chance number 6, and even now, it's chancers who are still at the helm, but with a bit of local tokenism in the shape of Ged Nixon to give that wee bit of credibility.

The common factor in all of it is the stadium and the council. It is the council who could kill off chancers riding in to town.........but they won't do it. Figure out why, and you'll be on the road to an honest and sustainable club.

You can go back to the days of First Division Online, and the people who have called it correctly right down the line, have been the football punters of other clubs. I've said it before, and so I'll bore you and say it again..........they have called it right every single time. In terms of Rankine, they are calling it again...........and they will be right again.

I wish you well, but I have a mild sense that the new regime ain't all that different from any of the last four. They are not there for the betterment of LFC.

[Stadio Delle Almondvale]

Yes, I can.

A club which lives within tis means and can be relied on to fulfil its fixtures.

a second team for the Aberdeen area playing in a new purpose built stadium which is currently being planned.

a club committed to playing tis way through the leagues within the rules.

can you suggest why they wouldn't be decent members of the league? Is it just because you think they're a diddy team compared to the mighty "Livi"?

If anyone thinks we are mighty, they are delusional. Scottish football is fast approaching a crossroads and it needs stability and strong teams from populous areas that can support the growth of community football. A team in West Lothian has a better chance of being able to contribute towards this.

Aberdeen as a city doesn't need a second team in senior football. It needs to be concentrating on presenting Aberdeen FC as the only choice for senior football rather than waving goodbye every Saturday morning to the green or blue buses heading south.

Cove have their place within football and it is mostly dictated to them by their geography. West Lothian has far more to offer with a population of 170000. Do we just roll over and say go and support the old firm? If we want sustainable football out with the SPL we have to provide a quality alternative to the Old Firm etc.

[Guest]

Not so sure. You can talk about history but it's the future you should perhaps focus on. As we potentially wave goodbye to the second team in the same amount of years, can we really say that the future is rosy. Who will be next and what's the future for the SFL. It needs strong and well supported teams so that it can be a viable alternative to the SPL for local supporters. The SPL likewise needs strong teams who can add to it's appeal as a strong league. I can't see the benefit of a team with the potential of Livingston being replaced by the likes of Cove Rangers. Can you?

Have you not fulfilled that potential? Have you not become the very thing that many people said you would become a decade ago? You seem to live in this bubble where you reckon the footballing world will implode if Livvy fold. What is that based on? Decisions have been made on "what is", not on "what might be". Fourteen years of rampant corruption. When is that fact going to sink in?

Quality might well have to take a back seat until integrity and honesty are established. In the long term, that is absolutely the right thing to do.

You got away scot free five years ago. This time you didn't.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Guest

[Ivo den Bieman]

If anyone thinks we are mighty, they are delusional. Scottish football is fast approaching a crossroads and it needs stability and strong teams from populous areas that can support the growth of community football. A team in West Lothian has a better chance of being able to contribute towards this.

Well, you;ve had your chance since 1995, and all the evidence rather points in the other direction

Aberdeen as a city doesn't need a second team in senior football. It needs to be concentrating on presenting Aberdeen FC as the only choice for senior football rather than waving goodbye every Saturday morning to the green or blue buses heading south.

And you know this how? Do you live in the city and have you taken a straw poll of football fans in the area? I can see there being quite a bit of interest in Cove if they are elected to the SFL- particualrly from fans fed up with the sterile drivel on offer in the SPL, or those who for family or financial reasons can't afford the time or money to go to away games.

Cove have their place within football and it is mostly dictated to them by their geography. West Lothian has far more to offer with a population of 170000. Do we just roll over and say go and support the old firm? If we want sustainable football out with the SPL we have to provide a quality alternative to the Old Firm etc.

This is the kind of quasi-corporate language characterising the false premise on which Livingston was franchised to the area, from Meadowbank. People don't support football clubs because they provide a "quality alternative" to the Old Firm. People support football clubs largely for irrational/non-logical reasons. It's not a free "choice" like buying a new car, or choosing a hotel to stay in on your holidays. And, in the cases of the good burghers of Livingston, most had "chosen" to follow either one of the OF or one of Hibs or Herts long before Bill Hunter and his all-black allstars showed up in the middle of the 90s. The model assumed 10% of Livingston's catchment area turning up to see the team regularly and even in the heady days of the SPL they never had the amount of paying punters to sustain that vision. The Meadowbank fans Action group predicted it all accurately before a foundation stone was ever laid at Almondvale.

[Skyline Drifter]

If Cove don't go tits up with monotonous regularity then I'd say they'd be of more benefit than Livvy and Gretna.

I understand the point you are making, and agree with it, but just in Gretna's defence they got swept up by one man with false promises and it cost them a club that had existed happily within its own means for over 50 years. I don't think it's entirely fair to compare with Livingston who have been in administration (or its equivalent) twice in 14 years and have overspent since the day and hour they were created.

Plenty could see the potential of Airdrie being replaced by Gretna,great decision that eh?

There was nothing fundamentally wrong with that decision at the time and the Gretna elected to the SFL (pre-Mileson) would most likely have been an asset to the SFl on a small scale the way Annan are now. Mileson's arrival on the scene changed everything just as it would had he pitched up at Cowdenbeath, Airdrie, Elgin, etc instead.

[Stadio Delle Almondvale]

Livingston were the 'future' 14 years ago.

Good grief! I think we've all accepted that Keane's phrophecy was flawed.

The future is far from rosy - but Gretna and Livingston are, fundamentally, victims of their own mismanagement rather than any outside influences.

Of course it's our fault. Doesn't help Scottish football any though does it?

Of course they do. Unfortunately, Livingston have, over the piece, shown themselves to be the opposite of a strong and well supported team.

Will take 50 years before we can truly expect to be "well supported"

If Cove don't go tits up with monotonous regularity then I'd say they'd be of more benefit than Livvy and Gretna.

I am NOT defending Livi's actions. Scottish League football depends upon the strength of their teams both in terms of their support and their financial muscle. There is more potential here than in many other places.

[Stadio Delle Almondvale]

Have you not fulfilled that potential? Have you not become the very thing that many people said you would become a decade ago? You seem to live in this bubble where you reckon the footballing world will implode if Livvy fold. What is that based on? Decisions have been made on "what is", not on "what might be". Fourteen years of rampant corruption. When is that fact going to sink in?

Quality might well have to take a back seat until integrity and honesty are established. In the long term, that is absolutely the right thing to do.

You got away scot free five years ago. This time you didn't.

You're missing the point entirely. We have cheated and robbed and been punished and here we are. Now we must rebuild from scratch and be a credit to Scottish football.

If we are dead and buried we serve no purpose and Scottish football loses a potential that it can't afford to. I have said before that "buying" the Old Firm and Hearts/Hibs support would never work and that has ultimately been what has brought us to this stage. Not until parents who are life long supporters are bring their kids and grandkids through the stadium doors will be in a better position. Jeez, we are only 14 years old in this part of our history! How can anyone expect us to have built up a huge support of thousands? The SPL years were a phallacy. Fair weathered fans and worse.

[Livi 293]

(Am I still allowed to post on here?)

I can't be bothered trawling through pages of celebrations, so I'll just post up my thoughts. Apologies if these points have already been covered.

1. In terms of the rules, we cannot complain about the punishment itself. However, it sets a precedent - any SFL club that becomes 'insolvent' can expect relegation to Division Three. Will that actually happen? Doubtful. And I hope Livingston make the point at the time.

2. The way it has been handled is a disgrace. If the SFL were intent on doing this as early as last week, surely it should have been conveyed at the meeting last week. As it is, it just highlights how spineless the SFL are - look like the heroes one week, then stab in the back the next, if you like. Why get hopes up, and allow the club to start planning for Division 1? Shambles.

3. I'm assuming that the thinking behind Division Three is that it is the only league we can afford to be in, int he eyes of the SFL. Because, if you are talking about the unfair advantage of spending out with your means, the worst we could have been had we lived within our means is the Second Division.

4. McDougall, Rankine and Nixon are not ready to walk away. We might, just, survive.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Livi 293

[Guest]

I am NOT defending Livi's actions. Scottish League football depends upon the strength of their teams both in terms of their support and their financial muscle. There is more potential here than in many other places.

By potential you are talking "population". WL is squeezed neatly between the OF and Hearts and Hibs. Livingston is a dormitory town with a huge portion of the population living there because it's cheaper than Glasgow or Edinburgh, but they remain true to their chosen clubs........the OF and H+H. Cumbernauld is pretty much the same.

You've also got the thing about it representing West Lothian, but the club name is Livingston.........and there are loads and loads of district residents who resent that profoundly. People from Bathgate and Linlithgow despise Livingston, and do not see it as in any way representing their district in a footballing sense......and they are right. The plonking of the club in Livingston, and the council backing it has received ahead of older established community clubs has left a bitter taste in the mouths of a lot of people. Livingston FC will never be accepted as being the representatives of West Lothian.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Guest

[wearealldoomed]

At the moment Airdries' level is Div 2 but for the 2nd season running they're being made to play in Div 1 and IMHO it is slowly killing them.

That's a little bit simplistic.

If we had a good tilt at division two, I daresay that a few hundred punters would re-appear. That said, a decent mid-table run in division 1 coud see our support get back to 1500 or so, if recent experience is any indication.

The chairman has to get his finger out his arse regardless of what division we find ourselves in. He's done little or nothing to entice lapsed fans and locals who haven't previously attended to come along.

The club's profile in Airdrie and the surrounding area is non-existant. There are 2500 Airdrie fans out there who live within a resonable distance of the stadium. Only 800 are regularly turning up for league games. Something has to be done, urgently, to find out why.

I don't see what's stopping any consortium buying a league place and applying to play at Almondvale. The precedent's been set .... whether you'd want to is another thing. Ask Jim Ballantyne ... according to the A&C Advertiser he sounds a bit pissed at the apathy of the Airdrie public. He takes a pounding every other week on the Stomp and seems like he's poured a fortune after keeping a team yo-yoing between the 1st and 2nd divs ... and what happens when all the basket cases have been gotten rid of ? No-one to keep them in the 1st then ... It's a completely thankless task. I'm sure that Rae the Morton chairman - who undoubtedly saved their bacon - gets it in the neck ... Jings even at our level - our board get pelters and we've not known a season where we've not had some kind of success.

See above.

Ballantyne has been apathetic towards the Airdrie support, and has blocked potential investment into the club if rumours are to be believed.

I appreciate that he wants the budget to match the income, but squeezing the wage bill year on year has impacted on the squad which in turn brings the gates down. Tis a vicious circle, which only a combination of investment and engagement within the community will fix.

[Tryfield]

'Oct 7 2008[/b], 08:04' post='2829730']

There's a story in the Sun today saying the Italian owners plan to sue Pearse Flynn over debts incurred during his time at Almondvale, with their argument being he should settle them and not them.

Can they do this? I thought if you bought a club, you bought the debt as well.

It's been said before, but for all the criticism of the SFL's inaction prior to last week, I've no idea what it is in particular that people think they should have been doing? Livingston were prior to McGrouther's appointment not in breach of any rules and Massone was denying there was any problem. The SFL had no entitlement to get involved.

Opening post, Oct 7 2008. Action taken Aug 5 2009. Three days before the new season kicks off.

The SFL are clueless.

Financial question and answer sessions between club chairmen/owners and the SFL every 6 months is one suggestion I'd like them to give a go. Laughing stock again.

[CALDERON]

If anyone thinks we are mighty, they are delusional. Scottish football is fast approaching a crossroads and it needs stability and strong teams from populous areas that can support the growth of community football. A team in West Lothian has a better chance of being able to contribute towards this.

Aberdeen as a city doesn't need a second team in senior football. It needs to be concentrating on presenting Aberdeen FC as the only choice for senior football rather than waving goodbye every Saturday morning to the green or blue buses heading south.

Cove have their place within football and it is mostly dictated to them by their geography. West Lothian has far more to offer with a population of 170000. Do we just roll over and say go and support the old firm? If we want sustainable football out with the SPL we have to provide a quality alternative to the Old Firm etc.

Fair point actually with the Cove thing.

I would like to see an Aberdeenshire team in the SFL though. I wish Inverurie Loco's had the will to apply for league entry at some stage, their crowds/ground is up there with most of the 3rd Division. There is certainly the catchment area within the area (plenty of nearby towns/villages) that would support League Football.

[Guest]

You're missing the point entirely. We have cheated and robbed and been punished and here we are. Now we must rebuild from scratch and be a credit to Scottish football.

If we are dead and buried we serve no purpose and Scottish football loses a potential that it can't afford to. I have said before that "buying" the Old Firm and Hearts/Hibs support would never work and that has ultimately been what has brought us to this stage. Not until parents who are life long supporters are bring their kids and grandkids through the stadium doors will be in a better position. Jeez, we are only 14 years old in this part of our history! How can anyone expect us to have built up a huge support of thousands? The SPL years were a phallacy. Fair weathered fans and worse.

OK, point accepted. Thing is, persuading your fellow supporters that this is poorly administered justice, but not inappropriate justice will be the hard bit. The fans who are saying that they should only have been demoted to the second because that's where they would have been had they honoured their debts are really missing the point. this is a penalty. It has to be worse than the alternative.

Their view is a bit like stealing a Mars Bar, and then offering to put it back or offer the shopkeeper 50% of its value and reckoning that this is punishment enough. It is making the dishonesty worthwhile because if you get away with it, you profit, but of you don't get away with it, you are no worse off.

What the SFL have finally said in the cack handed way is that dishonesty plus penalty puts you in a worse place than honesty. That makes absolute sense even if it hasn't been meted out correctly. However, lets not dismiss your council leader's part in this game. The timings were of his choosing, and I am absolutely certain given the behind doors meetings that the council schemed with Rankine and MacDougall over the timings of this in the hope and belief that the SFL would fold. They got it wrong.

[KingfaetheSooth]

The Scottish Football League (please not the word league) would be a poorer prospect without a senior football team from West Lothian as one of its members. The potential to have a non SPL team diluting the support of the Glasgow and Edinburgh teams is very important for the future of the Scottish game. Unless of course we are all happy to watch the slow demise of the Scottish game, we must support football at a local level.

Why does West Lothian deserve a football team bacause it has 170K residents? Most of these residents have made their decisions a long time ago to support the old firm, Hearts, Hibs, Linthithgow Rose or whoever.

As had been said, football supporting is a pretty irrational thing and Scottish football will not be saved by West Lothian having a community football club.

Not so sure. You can talk about history but it's the future you should perhaps focus on. As we potentially wave goodbye to the second team in the same amount of years, can we really say that the future is rosy. Who will be next and what's the future for the SFL. It needs strong and well supported teams so that it can be a viable alternative to the SPL for local supporters. The SPL likewise needs strong teams who can add to it's appeal as a strong league. I can't see the benefit of a team with the potential of Livingston being replaced by the likes of Cove Rangers. Can you?

How about another team from Edinburgh though? Or maybe the people of East Kilbride deserve an alternative to the old firm.

If anyone thinks we are mighty, they are delusional. Scottish football is fast approaching a crossroads and it needs stability and strong teams from populous areas that can support the growth of community football. A team in West Lothian has a better chance of being able to contribute towards this.

Aberdeen as a city doesn't need a second team in senior football. It needs to be concentrating on presenting Aberdeen FC as the only choice for senior football rather than waving goodbye every Saturday morning to the green or blue buses heading south.

Cove have their place within football and it is mostly dictated to them by their geography. West Lothian has far more to offer with a population of 170000. Do we just roll over and say go and support the old firm? If we want sustainable football out with the SPL we have to provide a quality alternative to the Old Firm etc.

Pish - you think that West Lothian deserves it because you live there and have a vested interest. Others might argue for a second Aberdeen team, a third Edinburgh team, a team from the Borders to fight against the influence of rugby, a team from East Kilbride, a team from Orkney & Shetlands etc etc. etc.

A big population does not mean you should be at the front of any queue or some sort of pish about you saving Scottish football. Some might say, West Lothian have had their chance and blown it.

Anyhoo, I thought you were tooddle pipping off to the third division forum?

Edited August 6, 2009 by KingfaetheSooth

[The Idiot Bástard Son]

Livingston fans just need a wee bit of patience. It'll take just a few years to get back up to the top flight. All they have to do is spend shit loads of cash that they don't have and but their way back up the leagues and they'll be back in the SPL before you know it. Just follow the old template and you can't go wrong. Just remember Pearse Flynn's proviso that relegation is not an option.

Don't mind the rest of us lot being criticial. We're just jealous, that's all. We know this because we were told by the newspapers.

Edited for spelling. Cos I cannae spell.

Edited August 6, 2009 by The Idiot Bástard Son