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Livingston - all the threads merged


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Fair points regarding the bond, but I just feel it's a rule being conjoured up out of nowhere for Livi and would not normally be applied to other clubs... I don't see how you can accurately calculate a fair rate anyway (attendances always vary, according to performance) and I just don't like it at all.

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Interim manager Donald McGruther, of administrator Mazars, has urged the SFL to think again about possible sanctions against the club.

He told BBC Scotland that Livingston could still go out of business if the new consortium and the SFL failed to find common ground.

If this is the case, then the consortium would have thrown away £50,000 to Massone for absolutely f**k all in return, I thought that these were astute business men?

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Interim manager Donald McGruther, of administrator Mazars, has urged the SFL to think again about possible sanctions against the club.

He told BBC Scotland that Livingston could still go out of business if the new consortium and the SFL failed to find common ground.

If this is the case, then the consortium would have thrown away £50,000 to Massone for absolutely f**k all in return, I thought that these were astute business men?

It's called blackmail - no more, no less.

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Nice try, but your analogy doesnt really hold up.

It does, because what you and all the other detractors refuse to accept is that football is a business like any other, and all this talk of "cheats" because a club overspent in anticipation of further gains shows a breathtaking amount of naivity. They were doing what businesses tend to do.

I notice one clown from this thread that's been baiting Livi (and in the past baited Gretna) is up to his old tricks now with the Killie fans. When are some people going to take off their rose-tinted specs about the running of professional football companies somehow possessing anything resembling some sort of Corinthian spirit? In Roy Of The Rovers, maybe, but not in the real world...

If you don't want your football to be all about evil lucre...watch the amateurs.

My local shopkeeper might well be living beyond his means from time to time and no doubt borrows money in the form of overdrafts and bank loans, but there is on major difference. My local shopkeeper isnt borrowing way beyond his means to try and compete with Tescos.

I really cannot believe you have just written that.

OF COURSE he's damn well competing with Tescos! Why do you think the supermarket has the loss leaders? To lure people into going the extra distance to go to them instead of the corner shop!

Ask any bank how many loans small shop keepers take out simply to allow them to stay open when faced with a new supermarket in town they know has been given a large "loss leader" budget for it's first 2 quarters by national HQ in order to establish itself?

This is, in effect, what Livingston did and have continued to do since the last time they went into admin. Football clubs can easily live within their means and find "their level" within the divisions.

I think the boards of Clyde, Stranraer, East Stirlingshire might have something to say about that one...

Its those that try to artificially prop up their level that get into the most serious trouble. Gretna did it and more recently Clyde have paid the penalty for it, but have chosen to deal with it in a different way. This is the second time Livy have gone into admin because they (whether it be the owners or the fans, although I think the former are more guilty) have tried to remain at a level that wasnt sustainable with the clubs existing income. Rather than generate this income, as someone like St Johnstone have, they've simply ran up debts and then not paid them. Not only that, but they've escaped any kind of serious footballing sanction, up till now anyway.

Of come off it! St Johnstone would be in deep shit if it wasn't for the largesse of their chairman - he even bought Alan Main in a last desperate attempt to destablise Gretna enough so they would pip them to promotion, the sort of tactic usually reserved by the Old Firm against any upstarts threatening to split them.

One of the reasons Scottish football historically has such an appalling track record of bust clubs is that they are by and large dependent - thanks to the grossly inflated power the Old Firm has over the rest - on a chairman or board of directors happy to continually throw good money after bad in order to keep the club alive. The moment they go - or the money dries up thanks to the boardroom becoming a battleground - they are invariably in trouble.

So please spare us the "sustainability" line, because in Scottish football outside of the Old Firm that has always been directly linked to the size of the Fat Cigars in the boardroom's pockets.

For me, this is what is annoying other football fans. Those that have seen their club stumble through from season to season cutting costs left right and centre like Clyde, or watch their club plod along in the lower divisions have seen Livy over spend and over achieve not once but twice now. Not only that, but get away with it.

So the crux of the matter is it's all down to sour grapes about Livi actually winning a real trophy as opposed to whatever Mickey Mouse consolation tournament the SFA runs up as a sop to 'the minnows' before doing whatever the Old Firm wants?

We'd never have guessed <_<

No wonder Stranraer attracted plenty of sympathy around Scotland when they were about to go under owing people left right and centre and having alienated a large part of their locality by ignoring local talent for that further afield [and hence the setting up of Stranraer Athletic (RIP) in the South of Scotland league].

Everybody sympathises with a club on its uppers in Scottish football...if it's one your team can beat. :rolleyes:

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OF COURSE he's damn well competing with Tescos! Why do you think the supermarket has the loss leaders? To lure people into going the extra distance to go to them instead of the corner shop!

Or to lure them into their supermarket as opposed to another (with a different loss leader). Supermakets fight with other chains. The corner shop is what is euphemistically termed 'collateral damage'.

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We shouldn't just be thinking of "Livi" here. It's the future governance of Scottish football that's at stake....

(Very long post later)

...I'm not holding my breath though.

Gotta say, that was one hell of a good post, and completely agree with you that the SFL (and indeed the SFA's) credibility is on the line over this matter.

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The two first division members (who are I think Jim Leishman and Donnie McIntyre from Ayr United but McIntrye is an office bearer so there may be a third)

Just to point out.. MacIntyre hasn't been involved with us for years and years. Turned up at Dumbarton a while after he left and is now at Albion Rovers :smartass

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You don't pay to get in or take any sponsorship so it wouldn't be any great loss you just want to stir shit :rolleyes:

You feel its just to slag people off, thats some community spirit, eh!, but lets not hide the facts.

Aye, whatever :rolleyes:

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The most likely sanction is a ten point deduction (following what the SPL rules now dictate in similar circumstances). SPL rules also place an embargo on signing new players. This is to avoid a situation where the club in adminstration simply tears up the contracts of their more expensive liabilities, cashes in on any players worth selling and then employing new players (or the same players) on reduced contracts. Once the CVA is agreed then this embargo will presumably be lifted.

Edited by MacWatt
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Not the best comparison as promotions in supermarkets are invariably funded by their suppliers. Supermarkets don't sell below cost, their suppliers do. Just look at the state of British food production and the number of firms/farmers that have lost money/gone out of business trying to supply them.

In a way just like the creditors of football clubs?

I can assure you that it is the supermarkets themselves that choose to sell below cost, even after screwing over their suppliers.

At the risk of us going off topic, the suppliers most certainly don't (they simply screw the producers...why do you think Mohammed Sarwar became a millionaire by sticking to the supply chain side & leaving the shop and producing side to others?).

What you are perhaps thinking of is the practice where supermarkets force suppliers wanting the all important eye-level shelves have to pay what is to all intensive purposes 'rent' for the privilege. There was also the case of Safeway demanding food manufacturers pay them money for their products to feature in their adverts (which rightly blew up in their faces)

A lot of these abuses however have decreased primarily due to the flak generated by George Monbiot's Captive State: The Corporate Takeover Of Britain, though there is still a long way to go.

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The idea that because all businesses have to borrow to invest we can't make any judgements about a company / club who have wilfully and recklessly overborrowed is fatuous.

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Or to lure them into their supermarket as opposed to another (with a different loss leader). Supermakets fight with other chains. The corner shop is what is euphemistically termed 'collateral damage'.

Maybe decades ago, but nowadays a supermarket is orientated in order to become the dominant retail outlet in an set area, and there is a certain amount of "honour amongst thieves" (bit like the Old Firm). Many of the "big four" (Sainsburys, Tescos, Asda and Morrisons) in fact have stores on land actually owned by one of their three rivals.

One also need look no further than the fact all of them now stock the Bam's Dram - Buckfast - and even Eldorado, both the preserve of the corner shop or small off-licence, and considered unthinkable a few years ago, simply in order to strike a potentially fatal blow to them by cutting into that teeny tippler market that was in many cases their last monopoly item.

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simply in order to strike a potentially fatal blow to them by cutting into that teeny tippler market that was in many cases their last monopoly item.

or simply in order to maximise profits: the big chains don't need to strike 'potentially fatal' blows against small businesses. The model of 'everything under one roof' is usually enough

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One also need look no further than the fact all of them now stock the Bam's Dram - Buckfast - and even Eldorado, both the preserve of the corner shop or small off-licence, and considered unthinkable a few years ago, simply in order to strike a potentially fatal blow to them by cutting into that teeny tippler market that was in many cases their last monopoly item.

Not in Airdrie they don't.....surprisingly.

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The future of Livi again hangs in the balance today when there is the SFL meeting at Hampden to discuss the bond.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8184564.stm

I'm sorry, but what do these guys want? For the club to escape the whole sorry mess unscathed? I don't accept that.

Nothing against Livingston fans, but they were given the chance to stay alive, which should be a reward (an unlikely one) in itself and any sanctions taken should be taken on the chin.

The club, as a body, breached the rules about trading whilst insolvent and have to be punished accordingly. IMO a 15 or 20 point penalty should be applied, with conditions if the financial situation doesn't improve. I would have said relegation, but with three days before the start of the season, it's too late for that.

I don't believe it's right that they should start on a level playing field, when you consider other clubs have abided by the rules and cut all kinds of costs, with Clyde leaping to mind in particular.

Massone and the years of mismanagement before them got Livingston into the situation they now face and I don't think Rankine and McDougall can claim foul play. It's brilliant they want to help save the club, but why threaten to walk away because the other SFL member clubs may just have the audacity to punish them for breaking the rules?

If the new owners want to throw the toys out of the pram on the back of whatever decision is made today, then I fear for the Livi fans again and they will show themselves to be what they really are.

More dodgy businessmen that don't give a shit about Livingston FC. And that's the last thing they need again.

Edited by Captain Jack Harkness
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The future of Livi again hangs in the balance today when there is the SFL meeting at Hampden to discuss the bond.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8184564.stm

"The consortium says its business plan for Livingston's future hinges on it remaining in Division One. "

What happens if Livi are relegated at the end of this season under normal circumstances. Do they walk away then?

Stuart

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