Livingston - all the threads merged

[unthinkable]

The thing is....if they are confident of fulfilling fixtures then it doesn't matter if it's £10 or £10 Million.

Livingston have a fantastic track record of paying what they owe, so let's just take them at face value and believe that if something happens we will all be compensated fairly.

[Socks]

Should Livingston pay their debts in full, then they should escape any sanction. However, since teh club statement says that a CVA will be required, a hefty penalty must be put in place, as most people seem to agree. For me, the problem with an arbitrary figure for the number of points deducted, is that it does not necessarily bear any relation to the offence, which is the amount by which the club will be bumping its creditors.

My suggestion for a suitable sanction would be as follow. The first time a club goes into administration in a 25 year period, and exits by a CVA, the total points deduction should be 1 point for every 1% of the debt that isn't paid, i.e. a CVA offering 25% would mean 75 points, a CVA for 12% would mean 88 points. The penalty would be structured such that it would be 25 points each season, until the full deduction had been applied, i.e. a 75 point deduction would mean 25 points every year for 3 consecutive seasons. A second CVA in the 25 year period would mean 2 points for every 1% of the debt not paid back.

Draconian? Certainly. However, at least a system like that would actually encourage bankrupt clubs to pay back the maximum they could, rather than the minimum they can get away with. The most ethical way of going about it is to cut spending and pay back as much as possible to those owed money, and so such a system surely promotes ethical behaviour amongst the clubs. A further benefit of this system would be that everyone at every club would understand that bumping creditors will automatically mean long term pain as far as success goes, and hopefully it would mean a more responsible attitude would be taken by both boards and fans. Everyone would know that if their club defaulted on payments and survived only by paying a pittance towards settling a CVA, their club would likely spend several years rotting in the third division, which is surely how it should be.

I'm entirely serious on this BTW, in case anyone thinks I'm on a windup.

[Homer Thompson]

Could any other club in the league put up the same amount of money at this time?

Are any other clubs in "pre-admin", up to their eyes in debt and still under threat of liquidation?

In your own time

[Bryan]

if the votes 14-14 on say relegation who has the casting vote?

[chico]

if the votes 14-14 on say relegation who has the casting vote?

Spartans?

[PELE]

What a surprise. The criminals from Livingston have to stump up £720k as a bond and they are already bleating about how unjust it is!

The league should have done the decent thing and thrown them out, like most decent supporters believed they would. Maybe now the league will finally do what is just and honourable and throw the book at them. They are a pathetic little club who think they are somehow bigger and better than the smaller clubs who are their equal. Well done Albion Rovers for showing them how to run a small club and win games.

Hopefully it is now good riddance to the embarrassment that is Livingston. RIP Meadowbank.

[PELE]

Are any other clubs in "pre-admin", up to their eyes in debt and still under threat of liquidation?

In your own time

I think Clyde and Stirling, as well as a few others, are in this boat. By all accounts, Clyde are likely to fold before the season is out.

[Caley D]

You mean..they're at it ??

Never would have thought that

No more "at it" than anyone doing the same thing for any other club would be.

I might not agree with the methods and opinions, but you can't blame them for trying.

[HibeeJibee]

What a surprise. The criminals from Livingston have to stump up £720k as a bond and they are already bleating about how unjust it is!

I think it's a nonsense they're having to put up a bond. As no-one else was ever asked to do so.

The league should have done the decent thing and thrown them out, like most decent supporters believed they would. Maybe now the league will finally do what is just and honourable and throw the book at them.

Expelling a club for entering administration would be massively OTT. A big points fine will not be.

They are a pathetic little club who think they are somehow bigger and better than the smaller clubs who are their equal. Well done Albion Rovers for showing them how to run a small club and win games.

Hopefully it is now good riddance to the embarrassment that is Livingston. RIP Meadowbank.

There are plenty other clubs now skating towards ice as thin as Livi's. Livi's happened to break.

Edited August 4, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[southview]

if the votes 14-14 on say relegation who has the casting vote?

I'm unsure as to which vote you are referring to, but if it is the one tomorrow, only representatives of the League Management Committee will be debating Livi's future. Jim Ballantyne won't be though, he will have to declare a conflict of interest and if Jim Leishman is around, I'd have thought it might be better if he did the same given his "emotional involvement" with the club a few years ago.

Not surprised to hear McDougall/Rankine moaning about bond but I hope that doesn't become theme of their discussion. To me, the bond isn't all that important and you could pay a percentage of it back every other week on the completion of an away fixture.

No, for me the football punishment is more important and that's a points deduction in my eyes. Relegation would have been an option but not three days before the start of the league!

Edited August 4, 2009 by southview

[PELE]

I think it's a nonsense they're having to put up a bond. As no-one else was ever asked to do so.

Expelling a club for entering administration would be massively OTT. A big points fine will not be.

There are plenty other clubs now skating towards ice as thin as Livi's. Livi's happened to break.

No one else keeps trying to cheat their creditors like these losers. Another club in their position would have been booted well and truly out. Livi's happened to break yet again.

[Livi]

Aye, whatever

You mean they haven't already ?? Some community club that would be banning fans when they need every one they can get

You don't pay to get in or take any sponsorship so it wouldn't be any great loss you just want to stir shit

You feel its just to slag people off, thats some community spirit, eh!, but lets not hide the facts.

[Savage Henry]

I think it's a nonsense they're having to put up a bond. As no-one else was ever asked to do so.

.

Actually Gretna were, and they couldn't. A bond is a most reasonable course of action against a team which has repeatedly failed to pay the staff and players. Livingston are, by all realistic expectations, being treated exceedingly leniently.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

I think tomorrow will almost certainly result in nothing worse than a 10 point deduction.

There's no way in hell that the SFL Committee can relegate a team 3 days before the start of the season. They'd be (even more of a) fucking laughing stock.

It might be stretched to 15 points in a "if we can't relegate them this season, they fucking will be next season" type scenario.

Also It'll be a fucking scandal if Leishman is allowed to take part. Surely he has to declare an interest?

Anyway, my money's on a 10, possibly 15 point deduction, and given the circumstances and timing, i'd say that was a pretty reasonable punishment.

[PELE]

I think tomorrow will almost certainly result in nothing worse than a 10 point deduction.

There's no way in hell that the SFL Committee can relegate a team 3 days before the start of the season. They'd be (even more of a) fucking laughing stock.

It might be stretched to 15 points in a "if we can't relegate them this season, they fucking will be next season" type scenario.

Also It'll be a fucking scandal if Leishman is allowed to take part. Surely he has to declare an interest?

Anyway, my money's on a 10, possibly 15 point deduction, and given the circumstances and timing, i'd say that was a pretty reasonable punishment.

You are probably correct, but I am sure it will be embarrassing whatever happens now. The SFL monkeys are already a huge laughing stock. As I said before, they should get a points deduction for the next three seasons at least. Given the circumstances, they should be wound up.

[Skyline Drifter]

I'm unsure as to which vote you are referring to, but if it is the one tomorrow, only representatives of the League Management Committee will be debating Livi's future. Jim Ballantyne won't be though, he will have to declare a conflict of interest and if Jim Leishman is around, I'd have thought it might be better if he did the same given his "emotional involvement" with the club a few years ago.

There are supposed to be nine members of the League Management Committee in theory, three office bearers, and two representatives each from the three divisions. I'm not sure there actually are nine though. Some of the office bearers double up as divisional reps too.

Unless relegation is seriously being considered I don't think Jim Ballantyne should be excluded. If the rest of them conclude relegation isn't happening there's no reason Ballantyne couldn't contribute to the rest of the discussion. The two first division members (who are I think Jim Leishman and Donnie McIntyre from Ayr United but McIntrye is an office bearer so there may be a third) ALL have vested interests too. It's obviously in their interest for Livi to potentially suffer a points deduction but stay up whilst Leishman also has some loyalties in the other direction, though that in itself probably isn't enough to disqualify his contribution any more than we should prevent players facing their old clubs.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Skyline Drifter

[Spain]

You are probably correct, but I am sure it will be embarrassing whatever happens now. The SFL monkeys are already a huge laughing stock. As I said before, they should get a points deduction for the next three seasons at least. Given the circumstances, they should be wound up.

I think next season is the least of their concerns right now. It is still possible Livi won't make it to next season. Also, with the financial issues and a likely squad restructuring, its likely that Livi may also struggle in Division 2 next season. But we're certainly getting ahead of ourselves at the moment. The outcome of tomorrows meeting may well be simply "Livi will remain in the first division, with a penalty to be decided at a later date."

[HibeeJibee]

They've never been punished before, chucking them out of the league would be ridiculous. We've got to the stage where relegation isn't possible. A points deduction is a fair and measured action.

Regarding the bond... I just think it's a stupid and unfair thing to do. Stranraer looked like they'd collapse before the end of last season, or not start this one: they'd never have been required to put up a bond. It's simply majority SFL clubs demanding cash from clubs who struggle to raise it.

EDIT TO ADD: I mean how do you calculate the bond? Why not make every club put up a bond?

Edited August 4, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[Spain]

They've never been punished before, chucking them out of the league would be ridiculous. We've got to the stage where relegation isn't possible. A points deduction is a fair and measured action.

Regarding the bond... I just think it's a stupid and unfair thing to do. Stranraer looked like they'd collapse before the end of last season, or not start this one: they'd never have been required to put up a bond. It's simply majority SFL clubs demanding cash from clubs who struggle to raise it.

EDIT TO ADD: I mean how do you calculate the bond? Why not make every club put up a bond?

The reason they have to ask for the bond, is because there is alternative measures that can be taken at this stage, i.e. demotion etc.

In the case of Stranraer etc, they were already into the season and the only option could have been to disregard all of the results against them.

[PELE]

They've never been punished before, chucking them out of the league would be ridiculous. We've got to the stage where relegation isn't possible. A points deduction is a fair and measured action.

Regarding the bond... I just think it's a stupid and unfair thing to do. Stranraer looked like they'd collapse before the end of last season, or not start this one: they'd never have been required to put up a bond. It's simply majority SFL clubs demanding cash from clubs who struggle to raise it.

EDIT TO ADD: I mean how do you calculate the bond? Why not make every club put up a bond?

If it was not for the money coming in at Stranaer, they would be history now. They could not have provided a bond, which would have been lower in value as well. Do you think Berwick would get the same light treatment if they were in trouble? Sadly, not a chance.

P.S. The bond is supposed to be equal to at least 36 games worth of money ( which seems a bit on the optomistic side for the Livy Losers ).