Livingston - all the threads merged

[Guest Beany Hill]

It is quite understandable that the Livi fans should welcome the rubber ring tossed from the lifeboat containing Rankine and McDougall but several points should be considered particularly in the case of Rankine.

1) Before Rankine arrived at Dumbarton in 1989 they had been in the first division for fifteen years without a break except for one season (1984-85) in the Premier League. Pre- 1975 they had been in the old first division (top league).

2) In Rankine's time in charge the club spent most of its time in the second division, a situation only alleviated by the introduction of a third division.

3) Sons did manage two seasons in the first division during the period 1989-2008 with Murdo McLeod taking us there as second division runners up. During Murdo's time however Rankine was "away" from the club. He was in fact bankrupt but another party was holding his shares. On Rankine's return we dropped through the leagues like a stone with successive relegations and a bottom of the third division placing to cap it all off.

4) We did manage a promotion in 2002. This was when Rankine had decided to sell the club. However as the value of the stadium land became much more relevant than the performance of the football club we returned to division three.

5) The comment about not filling the boardroom with blazers is highly satirical. We had more "Bosman" directors than any other club - amongst them Messrs Collumbine*, Gammie and Sharp of Stenhousemuir and Donnie McIntyre of Ayr United - all there to hang on like grim death to their blazers.

6) Rankine paid around £40,000 for the controlling interest at DFC. He sold it for £600,000. He can spot an opportunity.

7) If Ged Nixon is being used as anything other than a figleaf for Messrs Rankine and McDougall then Sons fans will be very surprised. Rankine's view of Sonstrust swayed between contempt and derision. However he did allow a Sonstrust rep on the board once he realised there was money involved.

Livingston have run up horrendous debts trying to operate in the SPL and the first division. Rankine and McDougall will put in the square root of hee-haw in capital. How will Livingston continue to operate at that level? where will the money come from?

The idea of Rankine as the saviour of a football club is something I'm having a real difficulty imagining.

Has he expressed an interest in buying the stadium yet? - He will.

*Sid Collumbine now at East Fife owned by Rankine's proxy.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Beany Hill

[Doink]

He's most certainly not in a minority of one after today.

Give it up Pansy-you called it wrong you are seething

[Guest]

We've already started reducing the wage bill with Chris Innes going to St Mirren today. You're only counting income by takings at the gate whereas there will be sponsorship, hospitality, conferencing, etc bringing in money too. When the Almondvale Suite was going good guns it brought in £60,000 a month going up to £100,000 at the Christmas period.

I think what was meant by Nixon's comments is that we won't spend more than we bring in unlike other times when we were overspending. Living within your means with proper budgets which are adhered to. I think the fans have woken up and this board will be scrutinised more closely.

I also think Albion Rovers will have one of their largest crowds in a while tomorrow so they will enjoy a spin off from all the upheaval. Hopefully a lot of the lapsed fans will see that apathy will kill the club and will come back in numbers.

Yes, but that income was probably never declared to the taxman, and probably represented (a fanciful) turnover rather than profit. This is the stuff that fans will latch onto as a reason for it being ok to keep on spending. I say it again...........live within your means and the outfall will be a very disgruntled support. There seems to be a belief that there are loads and loads of sponsors and fans simply waiting on Massone leaving so that they can throw money your way again. The belief too that there are shedloads of "lapsed fans" waiting to come back. I know a good few of these "lapsed fans", and they won't be back.........ever. LFC were a cheap Saturday creche, season tickets could be had for buttons, and they were watching a club that were spending two or three million a season more than they were earning. Those days are gone, and those lapsed fans are gone. If you live within your means, the stark truth is that you are more likely to see attendances drop than see them increase.

You can see how little views have really changed. Innes goes, and people expect his "salary" to be spent on replacement players.........absolutely no grasp of the reality of what lies ahead.

[Skyline Drifter]

This is news to me. As far as I know, HBOS couldn't believe the amount of credit we had been given then waited a few years and effectively dissolved most of the debt. My understanding is that Bennett (ex and prospective United director) will sell Dens and the Dees debt to Melville for £500K.

Doesn't put us in a good light but compared to Livi we're clean as a whistle!

Then with all due respect you must be the only Dundee fan in existence who hasn't quoted chapter and verse about the corporate restructuring last year. It was all in the published accounts, on which there were threads on here at the time.

All they did was move the debt into two subsidiary companies, Sandeman Properties Limited and Deelite Limited to separate it out from the football club. They also moved the ground into Sandeman Properties Limited.

[Skyline Drifter]

5) The comment about not filling the boardroom with blazers is highly satirical. We had more "Bosman" directors than any other club - amongst them Messrs Collumbine*, Gammie and Sharp of Stenhousemuir and Donnie McIntyre of Ayr United - all there to hang on like grim death to their blazers.

Interesting.

McIntyre is also on the League Management Committee.

[Guest]

Ged Nixon and an elected member from the Trust will be on the board. We were also insured that no politics would be taking place and that no blazers will be allowed on the board for the sake of it. They will all be doing a job.

That's a lie. Not once has our support not "even come close to three figures", you are talking rubbish. While we may have been under on a few occasions, there is no question that we were close to 100. That's nothing to be proud of but there is no need to lie.

As I've said before Duncan Freemason isn't a current creditor of Livingston FC. He was shafted in the 2004 admin, which as I've said was disgraceful.

There are a few concerns I currently have with the way the club is being run.

Firstly, I want to know what Rankine wants to do with the stadium. If I get a chance to see him at some point, I will ask him directly. I have no problem with moving stadiums if it's in our best interests with much lower running costs but I want to be informed that we will be moving, this is essential.

My second concern is the fact that they said that they will be paying the WLC and HMRC in full but going to a CVA with the small creditors. Surely a payment plan could be knocked up so that they can get their money back over a period of time. As I said on LiviLions, it's not the WLC and HMRC that are struggling through the recession, it's the small businesses. I'd hope that these businesses are offered free hospitality along with their CVA, if that's what it comes to.

Otherwise, I was extremely impressed with the words coming out of Ged Nixon's mouth especially the line "this club won't spend anything more than 99.5p for every pound it earns" and I am optomistic for the long-term club's future. It could be the case that we suffer a point deduction (morally, I'd prefer that as long as it wasn't excessive) and get relegated but I have no doubt that we can progress as a club with these guys in charge in the long-term with us working hard with the business community and the people of Livingston.

Read the highlighted section. Last time you were in the SPL, I was at Pittodrie. You had 52 fans there. You kind of shot yourself in the foot by saying I was lying while also saying that there were occasions when you had less than 100 away fans at games. Make your mind up mate. You cannot agree with what i said then claim that I am lying. There have been many occasions when your travelling support has been significantly less than 100. Fact.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Guest

[nick cash]

Good on Albion Rovers manager Paul Martin in todays Record, he says like the rest of us, how can a bankrupt both financially and morally club line up against his side who pay their wages on time everytime and pay all there debts, pay thei players 20 times more, time to listen SFL, if its brown and smells like shit, its a shit

[Wildrover]

Paul Martin is spot on in the Daily Record, the fact that this morally and financially bankrupt club are allowed to continue within the SFL is a disgrace, from there inception they have lived beyond there means and continually they are allowed to get away with it, what about all the people they owe money too?, small businesses that can ill afford being shat on , they should at least be demoted to the bottom league to try and start again by spending what they actually earn, they are a disgrace to Scottish Football

Edited to add I've just been on the Livilions site and there is no remorse or basic understanding of what there club has done or it's perception by other fans and football clubs, the "fans" on the site seem like a bunch of arseholes.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Wildrover

[AND180Y]

Do all the creditors have to agree to this arrangement for it to work??? Cos If I was owed, say £10,000, and I saw that the IR and the cooncil were getting paid in full and was then offered 10p in the £ I would be fucking raging and would most likely tell them to GTF. Then I'd take em to court..

Is this possible or am I taking bollocks (again)

Vital Components of a successful CVA are

• A viable business that can return to profitability.
  
  
• A commercially structured deal - do not pay too much too soon.
  
  
• Introduction of appropriate levels of working capital in addition to the restructuring of debt.
  
  
• The management accepts that there has to be change in the management and company.
  
  
• Determination and hard work is essential, plus a bit of luck helps.
  
  
• Directors need to use expert CVA advisors to build the deal. Always ask advisors claiming to do turnaround how many CVA's they've done!!
  
  
• Cautious forecasts don't expect life in CVA to be easy!
  

1. The proposal must then be sent to all creditors who then consider it for the minimum notice period as above before the creditors meeting can be held. This is usually held at an independent venue (theoretically at the convenience of creditors).
   We find that the HMRC team, called the Combined Voluntary Arrangement Service prefers to have up to 3 weeks to consider the proposals so we always allow more than the statutory 14 day minimum period for consideration.
   
   
2. The meeting will be chaired by the advisor or an Insolvency practitioner (IP). Creditors are often represented by technical professionals from other insolvency firms. The aim of the meeting is to allow the creditors to question the director's proposals; however it is not a place for settling disputes.
   
   
3. At the meeting the creditors vote on the proposal and the proposal will be approved if a majority vote of 75% by value of the total value of creditors at the meeting (whether in person or by proxy) vote in favour. A second vote excluding connected creditors is taken and provided that not more than 50% of creditors vote against the proposal it is approved.
   
   
4. In our experience the voting at meetings is an area that concerns many directors. Well, provided the work has been done thoroughly before the CVA is filed at court then the worry should be reduced. In our CVA's the Combined Voluntary Arrangement Service, (CVAS) which represents the HM Revenue and Customs, will always support viable proposals that are well built and show proper care and attention to detail.
   

Example of Voting at an CVA Creditors Meeting

£

Total PAYE Debt 22,000.00

Total VAT Debt 25,000.00

Total Unsecured Creditors 250,000.00

Employees Claims 33,000.00

Total Debt in CVA Proposal 330,000.00

Present at Creditors Meeting

PAYE 22,000.00

VAT 25,000.00

Unsecured Creditors 121,000.00

Total Votes Cast 168,000.00

In Favour 159,878.00

Reject 8,122.00

Total %age in Favour 95.17%

Toal %age Rejecting 4.83%

Proposal Accepted

YES

The proposal has to be put to ALL creditors they can't pick and choose who is in it, all debts or no debts!!

Not sure how many of the vital components of a CVA that Livi meet? Escpecially the viable business returning to profit!!

Edited August 1, 2009 by AND180Y

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Duncan you are like a dug with a bone! I have no doubt the post count on this thread will hit 10,000! Probably 2/3 of my posts are me apologising to you for what we have done! I'm losing patience now! Will you give it a wee rest? I will willingly accept it if we go back to the same sins!

[forkboy]

Paul Martin is spot on in the Daily Record, the fact that this morally and financially bankrupt club are allowed to continue within the SFL is a disgrace, from there inception they have lived beyond there means and continually they are allowed to get away with it, what about all the people they owe money too?, small businesses that can ill afford being shat on , they should at least be demoted to the bottom league to try and start again by spending what they actually earn, they are a disgrace to Scottish Football

Edited to add I've just been on the Livilions site and there is no remorse or basic understanding of what there club has done or it's perception by other fans and football clubs, the "fans" on the site seem like a bunch of arseholes.

Aye but they are also so delusional to think Scottish Football "needs" a senior club in West Lothian I'm sure the SFL was doing OK way back before Livi joined the league.

[LLD]

Read the highlighted section. Last time you were in the SPL, I was at Pittodrie. You had 52 fans there. You kind of shot yourself in the foot by saying I was lying while also saying that there were occasions when you had less than 100 away fans at games. Make your mind up mate. You cannot agree with what i said then claim that I am lying. There have been many occasions when your travelling support has been significantly less than 100. Fact.

With a couple of exceptions I've been at all the away games and I can tell you that there may have been one or two occasions where we had less than 100 supporters present, but Aberdeen isn't one of them.

I recall a big story in the Sun saying we had 73 at a game there when Caley Thistle played there, but it was about double that. I help run one of the buses (which was full that day), there was another bus and a number of people travelled up independently.

I know we haven't got a big support by any means, but to suggest we regularly have fewer than 100 people at away games is just not the case.

[Rovers_Lad]

Will Livi now go part time or remain full time?

[AND180Y]

Duncan you are like a dug with a bone! I have no doubt the post count on this thread will hit 10,000! Probably 2/3 of my posts are me apologising to you for what we have done! I'm losing patience now! Will you give it a wee rest? I will willingly accept it if we go back to the same sins!

The guy has a right, how would you feel if someone f*cked you over for cash, showed no contrition or humility and set off on the road of building up unpayable debts again?

How would you feel knowing that it was happening all over again with small creditors getting f*cked over again?

How do you know how it affected Duncan or his family and workforce? (Not that I do either)

Bitter? If he is he won't be the only one!!

Livingston have been subsidised by the council and it's creditors for too long, why should they have an unfair advantage over other teams? Fans of other teams have sweated blood and tears to raise monies for their teams when things have gone wrong, Livi fans however say plenty and do nothing whilst they await the arrival of the next sugar daddy (con man) so that the process can begin again.

[Guest Third Son From The Rock]

Paul Martin is spot on in the Daily Record, the fact that this morally and financially bankrupt club are allowed to continue within the SFL is a disgrace, from there inception they have lived beyond there means and continually they are allowed to get away with it, what about all the people they owe money too?, small businesses that can ill afford being shat on , they should at least be demoted to the bottom league to try and start again by spending what they actually earn, they are a disgrace to Scottish Football

Edited to add I've just been on the Livilions site and there is no remorse or basic understanding of what there club has done or it's perception by other fans and football clubs, the "fans" on the site seem like a bunch of arseholes.

It's good that people should make informed, objective comment.

I'm sure that the fact that Neil Rankine bagged Paul Martin at Dumbarton hasn't coloured his opinion in any way.

[glensburgh]

Paul Martin article from the Daily Rantic

Kenny Black piece in the Scotsman

I reckon they'll be more to follow from other clubs in the next few days. It's far from over.

[Guest Flash]

Paul Martin article from the Daily Rantic

Kenny Black piece in the Scotsman

I reckon they'll be more to follow from other clubs in the next few days. It's far from over.

Remember, too, that any club unhappy at any punishment (or lack of one) can appeal and put it to a vote of all full memeber clubs. Might be an idea for them (or one of them) to propose a penalty to the Management Committee that would be acceptable, and then have everyone vote on that.

[unthinkable]

With a couple of exceptions I've been at all the away games and I can tell you that there may have been one or two occasions where we had less than 100 supporters present, but Aberdeen isn't one of them.

I recall a big story in the Sun saying we had 73 at a game there when Caley Thistle played there, but it was about double that. I help run one of the buses (which was full that day), there was another bus and a number of people travelled up independently.

I know we haven't got a big support by any means, but to suggest we regularly have fewer than 100 people at away games is just not the case.

After a rallying call by McGruther for fans to turn up at Palmerston last week, as QoS had waved their expenses and with the gate actually being split 50-50, only 108 Livi fans turned up. At a time that was seen as a last chance saloon it showed to me just what little loyal supporters Livi actually have.

[Skyline Drifter]

After a rallying call by McGruther for fans to turn up at Palmerston last week, as QoS had waved their expenses and with the gate actually being split 50-50, only 108 Livi fans turned up. At a time that was seen as a last chance saloon it showed to me just what little loyal supporters Livi actually have.

Where on earth did you get all that crap from?

We did no such thing and Livi had 130 fans there.

[LLD]

After a rallying call by McGruther for fans to turn up at Palmerston last week, as QoS had waved their expenses and with the gate actually being split 50-50, only 108 Livi fans turned up. At a time that was seen as a last chance saloon it showed to me just what little loyal supporters Livi actually have.

People didn't want Massone to get the money. There will be a good number at Cliftonhill today.