Livi 293 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Wow. Just, wow. It's probably safer for me just to cancel my P&B account now... All I'd like to point out is that, as of yet, I don't think any rules have been changed. If they are not changed, we play in administration this year, and I would fully expect and accept a fairly hefty points deduction for doing so. Massone may also accept the offer, in which case we're a go-go in terms of SFL rules. The only logic I can see that the SFL have used to attempt to change their rules is that the Italian seems so out of touch with reality, that to see the club die when everything is waiting financially to save it, only to be prevented by a 'loopy' owner who doesn't 'get it' would seem wrong. I am not neutral enough to fairly argue whether this is an acceptable position to take. So I won't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 No, sorry try again. I am stating that Livi are now on a last chance and we have to run the club with the community model and youth development at the fore of everything we do. Income=expenditure. If livi fans stay away form games the money will go to Livi's coffers. If you stay away form livi's games, are you going to donate it to your club? Feck knows, your going to need it. But don't worry, if Falkirk find themselves in the shit, I'm sure your positivity will help rally everyone around. We certainly have the numbers in Livi, just need to get over our incredibly negative last few years. I am saying that we as livi fans have a mountain to climb in terms of stabilising our club, opening it up to the community and regaining some of our damaged reputation. Only time will tell, if we get the chance, I hope we can prove to you we are worth having around. But unless the new "owners" guarantee to paying all of the existing debt, rather than wriggling in under yet another measly xp in the pound CVA AND the league dishes out some sort of penalty that will be a deterent to others in the future, everything you've just said are nothing more than words. Do you really expect fans of other clubs to get behind a new Livy who have absolutely nothing to stop them doing exactly the same thing for a 3rd time? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Bear Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 the season long survival plan takes shape They better hope they don't need to switch the floodlights on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry the lion Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 The short answer to that is no, no I wouldn't. I'm not so blinded by club loyalty that I'd a solution that put the interests of my club over the interests and reputation of the wider game. Still less would I ask or exepect the SFL to do so. Sorry. This just stinks. utter pish. Your right it is undersirable and unpleasant, but there is no way that you'd fight for your club for a year under a mentalist owner only to rollover because other clubs fans don't like it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadio Delle Almondvale Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Done any research on the "New Order" or the companies they are involved in? I fully expect something interesting to turn up. I wasn't blinkered to Massone by any means although confess to swallowing some of the crap. I will see how it all pans out over the course but it's to easy to start not to trust from the off. We have a chance to right some of the wrongs and I hope we can see some of that begin immediately. Scary, do not go. Instead give what you would have spent to the rovers.SDA, it would be more counter productive to go to almondvale, unless there is a guarantee that all creditors will be paid in full. I think we have to accept that some of the creditors wont get their £1 in the £1 back. I would hope however that the club can work with these people in an effort to help them. I doubt many businesses would ever offer credit terms to LFC but why not offer these firms new business with cash up front. Offer them advertising or hospitality for nothing. It's not money but it could help the creditors whilst at the same time not costing Livi too much. We also have to remember that by being liquidated, we offer these creditors zero. By being in business we can offer them something and more importantly the businesses and tax payers of West Lothian. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AND180Y Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 From Livilions This is not about opposition supporters, this is about Livingston supporters old and new and what can we do? This is our burden, our debt, our club. Given time and proper financial management things will change. If opposition fans stay away thats their choice. We owe them nothing. Aye that's what they think of the creditors too!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Wow. Just, wow. It's probably safer for me just to cancel my P&B account now... All I'd like to point out is that, as of yet, I don't think any rules have been changed. If they are not changed, we play in administration this year, and I would fully expect and accept a fairly hefty points deduction for doing so. Massone may also accept the offer, in which case we're a go-go in terms of SFL rules. The only logic I can see that the SFL have used to attempt to change their rules is that the Italian seems so out of touch with reality, that to see the club die when everything is waiting financially to save it, only to be prevented by a 'loopy' owner who doesn't 'get it' would seem wrong. I am not neutral enough to fairly argue whether this is an acceptable position to take. So I won't. Thats possible the best attempt to justify the SFL decision yet. And it almost works but, again, unless those waiting to "save" the club are going to pay back every penny of the existing debt then, IMO, the SFL should have let the club die. If Livi are allowed to survive under another CVA then this decision is not only wrong, but dangerous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Wow. Just, wow. It's probably safer for me just to cancel my P&B account now... All I'd like to point out is that, as of yet, I don't think any rules have been changed. If they are not changed, we play in administration this year, and I would fully expect and accept a fairly hefty points deduction for doing so. Massone may also accept the offer, in which case we're a go-go in terms of SFL rules. The only logic I can see that the SFL have used to attempt to change their rules is that the Italian seems so out of touch with reality, that to see the club die when everything is waiting financially to save it, only to be prevented by a 'loopy' owner who doesn't 'get it' would seem wrong. I am not neutral enough to fairly argue whether this is an acceptable position to take. So I won't. It's all about the S.F.L. really. People who 'hate' Livingston F.C. are missing the point a bit. Changing the rules to remove Massone is a nonsense that could have been avoided if they'd have rules for fit and proper persons in place before letting him take over. From the comments by Brown McMaster yesterday, it looks very much like there is a possibility of no sanctions whatsoever on the club itself. That would really suit Rankine, who will be salivating at the thought of remaining in the First Division and organising a CVA of eight or ten pence in the pound. As for the fans, you'll have rid of a charlatan and swapped him for....eh.....a charlatan. And so it goes on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I fully expect something interesting to turn up. I wasn't blinkered to Massone by any means although confess to swallowing some of the crap. I will see how it all pans out over the course but it's to easy to start not to trust from the off. We have a chance to right some of the wrongs and I hope we can see some of that begin immediately.I think we have to accept that some of the creditors wont get their £1 in the £1 back. I would hope however that the club can work with these people in an effort to help them. I doubt many businesses would ever offer credit terms to LFC but why not offer these firms new business with cash up front. Offer them advertising or hospitality for nothing. It's not money but it could help the creditors whilst at the same time not costing Livi too much. We also have to remember that by being liquidated, we offer these creditors zero. By being in business we can offer them something and more importantly the businesses and tax payers of West Lothian. No, no we really dont. This sounds like the kind of shite Massone was spouting, and is the kind of thing that turns other fans against your club. Yes, creditors would have got nothing under liquidation, but at least there would be no chance of the club doing it all again - or any other club for that matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AND180Y Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I fully expect something interesting to turn up. I wasn't blinkered to Massone by any means although confess to swallowing some of the crap. I will see how it all pans out over the course but it's to easy to start not to trust from the off. We have a chance to right some of the wrongs and I hope we can see some of that begin immediately.I think we have to accept that some of the creditors wont get their £1 in the £1 back. I would hope however that the club can work with these people in an effort to help them. I doubt many businesses would ever offer credit terms to LFC but why not offer these firms new business with cash up front. Offer them advertising or hospitality for nothing. It's not money but it could help the creditors whilst at the same time not costing Livi too much. We also have to remember that by being liquidated, we offer these creditors zero. By being in business we can offer them something and more importantly the businesses and tax payers of West Lothian. That'll be a first, have they ever paid a full years rent at the proper rate? Livi are on a tax rate equivalent to half what everyone else pays, given the amount of write-offs. What could they possibly offer local businesses? I'm sure something interesting will turn up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry the lion Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Thats possible the best attempt to justify the SFL decision yet. And it almost works but, again, unless those waiting to "save" the club are going to pay back every penny of the existing debt then, IMO, the SFL should have let the club die. If Livi are allowed to survive under another CVA then this decision is not only wrong, but dangerous. Sorry, but you are taking moral high ground that doesn't exist for either Livi or the creditors. only if your not really connected to this sorry story can you believe the world is as uncomplicated as that. If livi go totally bust, the poor creditors you are standing up for GET NOTHING. NADA. If we go through CVA they will get something. Ask them which they prefer, most livi fans are ashamed of the hurt the creditors have borne and would rather see them get something than nothing. bearing in mind that one of the 2 biggest creditors took LFC to court to deliberately dislodge the current owner with a view to securing senior football in livi, not destroying it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southview Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Wow. Just, wow. It's probably safer for me just to cancel my P&B account now... All I'd like to point out is that, as of yet, I don't think any rules have been changed. If they are not changed, we play in administration this year, and I would fully expect and accept a fairly hefty points deduction for doing so. Massone may also accept the offer, in which case we're a go-go in terms of SFL rules. The only logic I can see that the SFL have used to attempt to change their rules is that the Italian seems so out of touch with reality, that to see the club die when everything is waiting financially to save it, only to be prevented by a 'loopy' owner who doesn't 'get it' would seem wrong. I am not neutral enough to fairly argue whether this is an acceptable position to take. So I won't. I speculated as to whether this would be part of their thinking yesterday, but it's a helluva decision to take. In Massone's case, everyone can see he is looped. The SFL won't come out and say if this was part of their reasoning behind the decision but I am willing to bet it probably was. Especially with big Leish sitting there telling his colleagues in his Fife twang "the man's a bloody idiot I tell ye. We cannae let Livi die cos o't that eejit, eh". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reignman Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Yes, I am being nasty, but you guys are tarring and feathering every single honest livi fan who has had to watch their club getting a new hole torn, pissing local businesses off (lots of whom are livi fans) and hacking off the entire footballing community in scotland. And you've 'had' to watch them win promotions, finish third in the SPL, compete in Europe and win a cup, and even latterly be competetive in the first division, which has all been funded by unpayable debt. You weren't greetin' about pissing off local businesses & the football community in the glory days, so don't pull the 'woe is me' routine now the shits hitting the fan in the most minor way possible. "Boo hoo, people don't like us" - what a small price to pay, you should have been put down like a dying animal yesterday and you all know it. You ask fans of other clubs to put themselves in a Livi supporter's shoes - how about the other way around? How about you put yourselves in the shoes of the clubs who cut their cloth accordingly, live within their means and as a result plod along in the second and third divisions getting no glory whatsoever (and yes, that is livi's true level), and then this bunch of shysters come along romp their way up the leagues cheating people out of millions of pounds to fund it - would you not have a little bit of a disliking for them? You wonder why so many people would have been happy to see then end of you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadio Delle Almondvale Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 From LivilionsAye that's what they think of the creditors too!! I don't share that sentiment and will work hard to persuade our fans that having a f**k you attitude is part of the reason we are in the mess we are. I totally understand why people don't like us but see it as our job to turn that around. Please don't assume that that attitude is the dominant mood amongst the Almondvale faithful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Sorry, but you are taking moral high ground that doesn't exist for either Livi or the creditors. only if your not really connected to this sorry story can you believe the world is as uncomplicated as that.If livi go totally bust, the poor creditors you are standing up for GET NOTHING. NADA. If we go through CVA they will get something. Ask them which they prefer, most livi fans are ashamed of the hurt the creditors have borne and would rather see them get something than nothing. bearing in mind that one of the 2 biggest creditors took LFC to court to deliberately dislodge the current owner with a view to securing senior football in livi, not destroying it. Oh, well thats alright then This isnt about Livi, or the creditors, or the moral high ground. This is about the SFL doing what is right and best for Scottish football as a whole. I've already given my opinion as to the "poor creditors get nothing" argument - its ridiculous. The options to any potential buyer should have been pay off all the debt or the club folds. If, as you say, WLC had ulterior motives for taking livvi to court then thats there lookout, it has nothing to do with the SFL. Frankly, they were playing with fire and if they'd got burnt then so be it, again nothing to do with the SFL. Oh, and havent we been hearing all week that if WLC had taken the club to court then HRMC would have? Presumably, they just wanted rid of Massone too? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbers Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 How the hell can you say most livi supporters are ashamed that either way creditors will lose out. You, like the rest of us, have seen this coming for a long time. Did you, the livi supporters actually do any to raise mfunds to help your club so this present situation did not arise. NO YOU DID NOT so dont come on here with your sanctimonious piety and crocodile tears. You are a bancrupt company that should suffer the same fate as all other bancrupt companies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyle be back Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I think the SFL have been seduced by the image that Livi are a 'big club' and as such would rather have them than a 'small club' like Spartans/ Annan etc. The problem is that Livi are not a big club. They may have a nice stadium, but they don't own it and can't afford it They may have a goodish squad, but they have shown they can't pay them They have a cost base that they are not prepared to pay for They have a smallish fan base that is no bigger than others They have a history which was bought (I don't mean the Meadowbank years, I mean the SPL/ League Cup that was 'paid for' by the first administration) If Longmuir has stated that they will be kept in the 1st because that is what their business plan is predicated on, then he truly is a fool of the highest order. The market will decide where Livi should be - the market has decided that 1st Div football is unsustainable for Livi (as evidenced by the huge debts), so the answer is pimp out the club to the next sugar daddy to bankroll the club, claiming 'it will be different this time'. If I was a chairman of another club, I'd want to know what plans Livi have to cut their cost base to match their income base (I mean their current income base, not some pie in the sky plan from the latest 'messiahs' to walk into dodge). Because without evidence of this cost cutting I would claim that Livi would still have an unfair advantage over those clubs trying to live within their means - one that a 10 point deduction would not be able to address. Also Livi would be back next year for the next semester of 'football unsustainability 101'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AND180Y Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Sorry, but you are taking moral high ground that doesn't exist for either Livi or the creditors. only if your not really connected to this sorry story can you believe the world is as uncomplicated as that.If livi go totally bust, the poor creditors you are standing up for GET NOTHING. NADA. If we go through CVA they will get something. Ask them which they prefer, most livi fans are ashamed of the hurt the creditors have borne and would rather see them get something than nothing. bearing in mind that one of the 2 biggest creditors took LFC to court to deliberately dislodge the current owner with a view to securing senior football in livi, not destroying it. Of course they prefer something to nothing, but that is only to minimise their losses. They shouldn't have to make the choice!! How after this debacle can WLC stand up in court and ask a judge to bankrupt a person for not paying their taxes when it might be that dealing with LFC caused the hardship in the first place, aided and abetted by WLC of course. A fcuking travesty for the law and the normal working man!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 They better hope they don't need to switch the floodlights on. I did ask at one time, in times of such financial crisis, should games be played earlier on a Saturday (in winter) and no midweek games (or to a minimum) to minimise clubs outgoings. I was laughed at, but when we see the kind of bills clubs rack up on the leccy, perhaps it's time to think again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AND180Y Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 They may have a nice stadium, but they don't own it and can't afford it To be fair it has development potential, I mean they could knock a stand down and build flats with a panoramic view of the pitch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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