Livingston - all the threads merged

[southview]

A club does not need to be in administration in order to suffer a punishment. This is the relevant rule

"76.2 The Management Committee shall also have full power to deal with as it thinks fit, including power to deduct championship points before or during a season and/or to impose a player registration embargo on any club guilty of conduct contrary to the interests of the League and its member clubs or any registered player or former registered player, or potentially likely to prejudice the orderly progress of the League Championship and/or the League Challenge Cup competition in any season. Such conduct, for the avoidance of doubt, may include a club in or going into Administration, Liquidation, Receivership, Sequestration or any other insolvency

procedure by whatever means or having a Judicial Factor appointed to its undertaking."

Administration is included as an example. However, even just concentrating on that point is the appointment of the "interim manager" not included in the definition of "any other insolvency procedure"? If it isn't, why the hell was he appointed?

Also, if no punishment takes place, any club not satisfied with this can appeal:

"76.3 Any club, club official or player aggrieved by a decision of the Management Committee, other than a decision taken in terms of Rule 28, which shall be final and binding, or any club aggrieved by a decision of the Management Committee in terms of Rule 31, 32 or 70 concerning the suitability of its ground, shall have power, within ten days from the date of decision, to appeal to a Special General Meeting of the League on payment of a deposit of £500.00 which shall be

forfeited in the event of the appeal being dismissed.

76.4 The appeal shall, however, be deemed to have succeeded unless the decision of the Management Committee is supported by a majority of the votes cast at the said Special General Meeting."

I imagine this rule is in place to allow a club being punished to appeal but, as I read it, it allows any club to appeal a decision, whether or not they are the "victim".

And at General and Special meetings, it is one club, one vote (ie full members). there is no such rule as 4 votes for 1st division clubs etc.

"11.3 Except as aftermentioned, at all such General and Special Meetings, and in terms of Rule 30, each First Division club shall have one vote, each Second Division club shall have one vote and each Third Division club shall have one vote.

11.4 In the election of the President and Vice-President, each club shall have one vote."

Would having "a judicial factor applied to its undertaking" cover McGruther's present involvement?

Livingston are in administration in all but name. They are sitting in the land between "not in administration" and "in administration".

Incidentally, David Longmuir's comments in the paper today are a laugh. Livingston couldn't be demoted to the third division as "McDougall and Rankine's business plan is based on them being a first division club".

Pretty much indicates that they won't be deducted points either in my view. What a joke.

[Stadio Delle Almondvale]

It seems like the advantage will be handed to Livi, which is clearly unfair to the rest of the clubs in the league. If they escape without a sufficiently large points deduction (30+), it will be a disgrace.

I take it the clubs get to vote on this as well?

I would rather a relegation than a points deduction. Even just 10 points would all but guarantee a relegation in a league as competitive as this. Knowing that you really have nothing to play for from day 1 would indeed be hard to handle.

We do deserve punishment. How can we say that we have conducted our affairs in a proper manner? Whether the league decides we have committed the kind of crimes in relation to footballing matters that they are fit to punish us for is up to them and the board members. I could argue that we have paid a huge price in terms of our standing in Scottish football. Everyone hates us and by all accounts, people are queueing up not to visit Almondvale this season. We will be punished in this way for a long time.

A points deduction is an easy punishment to take. The ridicule and hatred is a bitter pill to swallow.

[AND180Y]

Havent really had time to think about this situation, but my initial thoughs are,

Whilst obviously glad that fans haven't lost their team, I am absolutely incandescent at the way that his has come about/been allowed to happen.

That folks on Livilions are crowing about the star turn at Hampden yesterday by the leader of West Lothian Council says nearly it all!!

That another thread crows about McDougalls buddie Leishamn being on the committee says even more.

Pass the air freshner please?

I will research and digest more before I return to rip the slimey, cheating, b**tards to shreds.

[The Master]

The world is full of double glazing companies that are the rejuvenation of previous double glazing companies gone under with the same people involved and the wife now the shareholder or the son and daughter, etc.

Never mind double glazing companies: it's the furniture stores that always amuse me...

Land of Leather

Leather Land

World of Leather

Leather World

etc.

Each new one appearing soon after the previous has been declared bankrupt...

Edited July 31, 2009 by Sir Calum Melville

[Skyline Drifter]

A very dangerous precedent if true. Who arbitrates and decides thta a majority shareholder can simply be stripped of what he owns in a private company, and for that to be delivered to someone else? The SFL are well enough known as being a toothless and thoroughly inept collection of amateurs not capable of tying their own shoe laces..........yet suddenly they (might) be taking it upon themselves to be part of a process that strips people of what they legally own...........regardless of how it is being run.

If the company has a court appointed administrator in place then the law of the land has already done that. The SFL rule would only partly ease the problems of the administrator in attempting to raise funds. Like I said, it would have to be very carefully drafted indeed.

And it's purely a guess as to what's being proposed. Like everyone else I'd be appalled if they are advocating simply removing the existing rule.

[Skyline Drifter]

Okay, there is no standard penalty, but Gretna were the last club in Administration and they got a 10 point penalty (albeit, this was from the SPL).

Apart from the 15 points that Accies were deducted I can't recall too many penaties that the SFL have dished out. Anyone remember any other point penalties received and what the penalties were for?

I vaguely recall a club getting a 3 point deduction for having an unregistered player.

Edit - Falkirk

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/lofivers...php/t98239.html

We got a two point deduction for fielding a player in a competitive match in 1989 prior to receiving international clearance.

[Guest Flash]

Would having "a judicial factor applied to its undertaking" cover McGruther's present involvement?

Livingston are in administration in all but name. They are sitting in the land between "not in administration" and "in administration".

Incidentally, David Longmuir's comments in the paper today are a laugh. Livingston couldn't be demoted to the third division as "McDougall and Rankine's business plan is based on them being a first division club".

Pretty much indicates that they won't be deducted points either in my view. What a joke.

I don't think it even has to go that far. I think his involvement is covered by "any other insolvency procedure". Why else was he appointed if it wasn't part of an insolvency procedure? He was appointed with a view to administration of a company that is "Hopelessly insolvent". If that doesn't qualify as an insolvency procedure, I don't know what does.

[Skyline Drifter]

Would having "a judicial factor applied to its undertaking" cover McGruther's present involvement?

Livingston are in administration in all but name. They are sitting in the land between "not in administration" and "in administration".

Incidentally, David Longmuir's comments in the paper today are a laugh. Livingston couldn't be demoted to the third division as "McDougall and Rankine's business plan is based on them being a first division club".

Pretty much indicates that they won't be deducted points either in my view. What a joke.

Did he really say that? If he did that's ludicrous, and to be fair not like Longmuir at all who has barely put a foot wrong in his role since being appointed.

It's like the judge refusing to convict a criminal because "the bloke's plans included an evening in the pub and getting married next week and he can't do that if he's in prison".

[qos_75]

Never mind double glazing companies: it's the furniture stores that always amuse me...

Land of Leather

Leather Land

World of Leather

Leather World

etc.

Each new one appearing soon after the previous has been declared bankrupt...

That just makes me angry. Imagine my embarrassment, when I discretley popped in through the side entrance to World of Leather, dressed in my gimp suit, only to discover several corner suites (Interest free credit available) and a somewhat shocked family of four. If I could have unzipped my mask, I would have let the store manager know of my ire.

Edited July 31, 2009 by qos_75

[southview]

I would rather a relegation than a points deduction. Even just 10 points would all but guarantee a relegation in a league as competitive as this. Knowing that you really have nothing to play for from day 1 would indeed be hard to handle.

We do deserve punishment. How can we say that we have conducted our affairs in a proper manner? Whether the league decides we have committed the kind of crimes in relation to footballing matters that they are fit to punish us for is up to them and the board members. I could argue that we have paid a huge price in terms of our standing in Scottish football. Everyone hates us and by all accounts, people are queueing up not to visit Almondvale this season. We will be punished in this way for a long time.

A points deduction is an easy punishment to take. The ridicule and hatred is a bitter pill to swallow.

I wouldn't be sweating about a points deduction. Longmuir's comments hint that they won't do anything that has the potential to unstabilise McDougall/Rankine's "first division" business plan.

The SFL have made their bed. They are going to support you no matter what and a points deduction would go against that. Is there any way the club can "technically" avoid going into administration yet still get away with paying creditors 5p in the pound or whatever? This would virtually ensure no points are deducted.

Your club is being run for the next year by a court appointed administrator who is allowing two businessmen to fund the operation for the entire year in the hope that the company's owner (whether he has power or not) walks away or that a rule is changed. Nice set-up.

[jester]

QUOTE (WaffenThinMint @ Jul 30 2009, 18:24)

You f**kers went bust owing left right and centre, and came back by helping Dr John "Sod" Hall to murder Clydebank when he realised he wasn't going to be allowed to turn them into Franchise FC.

So please, spare us the Airdrieonian crocodile tears for "business integrity" - you hid those under your Ku Klux Klan robes years ago.

Excellent post.

Lets see, we went bust and went out the game.

A new business was set up, but with persons entirely unconnected with the old regime, with a similar club name, strip, etc, and playing at the same ground.

They were refused election to the SFL to teach all the other clubs a lesson, that you could not simply dissolve the club, write off the debt and start again.

They then bought Clydebank, payed off their debts and started again, with a new name, and moved the team, changed the strip, etc (nothing says you can't).

I personally don't give two hoots about ANY other club. I do care that the rules apply fairly to all, and what pisses me off is that the reason the league used to refuse us entry to the league is now being bodyswerved. If our Chairman had any integrity he'd walk away from his SFL blazership (after the vote on a rule change of course).

[AND180Y]

I wouldn't be sweating about a points deduction. Longmuir's comments hint that they won't do anything that has the potential to unstabilise McDougall/Rankine's "first division" business plan.

The SFL have made their bed. They are going to support you no matter what and a points deduction would go against that. Is there any way the club can "technically" avoid going into administration yet still get away with paying creditors 5p in the pound or whatever? This would virtually ensure no points are deducted.

Your club is being run for the next year by a court appointed administrator who is allowing two businessmen to fund the operation for the entire year in the hope that the company's owner (whether he has power or not) walks away or that a rule is changed. Nice set-up.

They won't go into admin, the CVA will overtake it and McGruthur will be nominated as the person to oversee it.

[southview]

Did he really say that? If he did that's ludicrous, and to be fair not like Longmuir at all who has barely put a foot wrong in his role since being appointed.

It's like the judge refusing to convict a criminal because "the bloke's plans included an evening in the pub and getting married next week and he can't do that if he's in prison".

Yes he did.

For some reason I can't attach link. Grrr.

Anyway, back page of today's Record turning to page 79, Longmuir says:

"We want to support the club as much as possible. A points deduction could still be put in place if the other clubs feel that it is a necessary course of action to take.

"But demotion wasn't considered because the prospective buyers of the club have a business plan that involves Livingston being in the First Division."

[wearealldoomed]

Incidentally, David Longmuir's comments in the paper today are a laugh. Livingston couldn't be demoted to the third division as "McDougall and Rankine's business plan is based on them being a first division club".

Pretty much indicates that they won't be deducted points either in my view. What a joke.

Why not extend that principle?

If you're relegated from your division, perhaps reelegation can be reversed if you show the SFL a "business plan" that evidences your club's reliance on a certain level of ticket and sponsorship cash to balance the books?

Heaven forbid that clubs might have to cut their cloth accordingly when circumstances change.

[Guest]

Yes he did.

For some reason I can't attach link. Grrr.

Anyway, back page of today's Record turning to page 79, Longmuir says:

"We want to support the club as much as possible. A points deduction could still be put in place if the other clubs feel that it is a necessary course of action to take.

"But demotion wasn't considered because the prospective buyers of the club have a business plan that involves Livingston being in the First Division."

Staggering. Simply staggering. Longmuir has just told the world he is utterly unfit to hold office. I am already in the place where I will never give one penny to Livingston FC for the rest of my days. I have three boys who are in exactly the same place (a bit of support for Dad). It currently sits as the only away fixture (be it league or Cup) that I will never attend again.

I can't possibly hope to convince other travelling supporters to do the same, but I would certainly encourage it. Longmuir in all of his magnificent stupidity, has give the official viewpoint of the SFL. It's no bad thing oif the footballing supporters of this country give their alternate opinion in a way that these nuggets understand...........stay away from Almondvale.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Guest

[Nowhereman]

Lets see, we went bust and went out the game.

A new business was set up, but with persons entirely unconnected with the old regime, with a similar club name, strip, etc, and playing at the same ground.

They were refused election to the SFL to teach all the other clubs a lesson, that you could not simply dissolve the club, write off the debt and start again.

They then bought Clydebank, payed off their debts and started again, with a new name, and moved the team, changed the strip, etc (nothing says you can't).

I personally don't give two hoots about ANY other club. I do care that the rules apply fairly to all, and what pisses me off is that the reason the league used to refuse us entry to the league is now being bodyswerved. If our Chairman had any integrity he'd walk away from his SFL blazership (after the vote on a rule change of course).

But Airdrie United did have to get the permission of the league to change the name and take Clydebank's league position. They were given that permission. So in effect the league allowed an Airdrie team to stay in the league at the expense of an existing team. Not the same as what is happening with Livi but still as rotten

[banjo player]

A points deduction is an easy punishment to take. The ridicule and hatred is a bitter pill to swallow.

Get ready to start sucking it up big style...this isn't over.

[Scary Bear]

Gretna received a points deduction from the SPL. The SPL DOES have an automatic points deduction rule (as does the English Football League). You can't presume that Gretna sets any precedent for the SFL because it doesn't.

Motherwell and Dundee went into administration before the SPL introduced the rule. Indeed part of the reason they did so was cases like those two.

Livi may very well get a points deduction when and if they go into administration. Or they might not. Who can say? I doubt they'll get any heavier a deduction for the fact they've been in administration before but that too is an SFL Management Committee call.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Larsson.]

How much of Mcdougall and Rankines childrens inheritance is it going to cost to keep

livi running for a year?

[larry the lion]

No one at livi is proud of the way our last three owners have handeld the club, especially the last owner who faced protests from furious livi fans. He has brought us as low as it can get, and frankly, in opposition to the desires and beliefs of the community as a whole he has single handedly brought us to our knees once again. There is an argument that says , "why should livi get away with it?" this could be countered by "why should one man destroy a communities club". I'm sure the more tribalistic amongst you will say ' "Fcuk livi, not going to their games", as a supporter of your team I would think that was a bit shit for your team, no away team every time we play at home? Should give us a nice advantage (if you really want to be that generous). Also, if the Livi contingency decide to return the favour, I think a few clubs would suffer more than we would. In fact, if the Livi fans that stayed away from away games donated direct to the new regime, the it might work out well for everyone. Yes, I am being nasty, but you guys are tarring and feathering every single honest livi fan who has had to watch their club getting a new hole torn, pissing local businesses off (lots of whom are livi fans) and hacking off the entire footballing community in scotland. I'm sure you are wondering why the SFL are going to ask their members to vote (they can always say no remember), simple, Massone is one gaffe away from being sectioned and they can see Livi is a viable proposition for filling the fixtures next season. It's too late to do anything else.

I know there is no chance cause you are all big tough guys, but a little empathy can go a long way. I can think of a couple of livi fans who bought shares in Stiring Albion to try and help them out, scottish football needs to galvanise to survive, not keep clamouring to climb on each others shoulders, at this moment, footballing success i.e. promotion, is the kiss of death for any club living outwith their means as we have been made to do by Massone and previous chairmen.