Livingston - all the threads merged

[Jamie_B]

I'd echo everything NorthBank has said. Several years ago Geoff Brown said, effectively, that Livingston were heading for trouble. He said the same about Gretna. Both times he was slated and branded as being jealous. Both times he was entirely correct. St Johnstone and St Mirren supporters are lucky to support well run clubs, and I have no doubt that in time that will pay huge dividends for both. At the very least, they'll be the two who aren't being chased to the death by the banks in the way that Killie and Clyde probably will be in the very near future.

[Thumper]

The same as in England where it worked well in getting rid of the Thai chap at Man City, I'd imagine.

Thaksin Shinawatra wasn't ousted by the fit and proper persons test. He passed that. The fit and proper persons test is given here, and basically amounts to having successfully not been convicted of fraud in a UK court or run more than one club into the ground previously. "The Thai chap" sold up because he was convicted of treason and denied amnesty here, which would have made attending board meetings a little awkward.

A simple sanity test along the lines of "check first if the person has an actual gameplan to win the Champions League in five years to back up their assertions" would do, though.

[unthinkable]

I'd echo everything NorthBank has said. Several years ago Geoff Brown said, effectively, that Livingston were heading for trouble. He said the same about Gretna. Both times he was slated and branded as being jealous. Both times he was entirely correct. St Johnstone and St Mirren supporters are lucky to support well run clubs, and I have no doubt that in time that will pay huge dividends for both. At the very least, they'll be the two who aren't being chased to the death by the banks in the way that Killie and Clyde probably will be in the very near future.

Does Geoff Brown not pump hundreds of thousands of pounds into Saints wages fund each season? All though this seems like a well run club but, if like Dundee with Melville, Brown decides to end his association then St. J are left with contracts they cannot afford. Both on a smaller scale than Gretna but risky nonetheless.

[Yoss]

I assumed the point that was being made was that Shinawatra would fail the test now, both because of his subsequent convictions in Thailand and because they stiffened the test largely in response to him.

[Davie Bhoy]

Would just like to wish all the best to the Livi fans for the future of their club.

Only been through there once and it was when we played Gretna there but you have a tidy wee ground and have given me some good memories in games against us where you came out and gave us a right good game.

Hope all goes well for you anyway.

[Gnash]

VT the current available figure are 22 million for rangers and 6 million for celtic, but this does not include monies owed on stadiums. and does not include the perenial 20 plus million debt that rangers ( ithink) hold against any future or possible profits.

Not sure where you got those figures from, but the latest set of annual accounts of each club show Rangers have a total debt of £36m and Celtic's is £44m (total £80m). Both are insolvent because current assets don't cover current liabilities.

http://www.celticfc.net/NetFrame_Client/1_...da-e92d3c112289

http://www.investegate.co.uk/Article.aspx?...0916140000PF32D

[Reignman]

Does Geoff Brown not pump hundreds of thousands of pounds into Saints wages fund each season? All though this seems like a well run club but, if like Dundee with Melville, Brown decides to end his association then St. J are left with contracts they cannot afford. Both on a smaller scale than Gretna but risky nonetheless.

Yes that's right. Geoff Brown is to Saints what Calum 'Calum' Melville is to Dundee. What a ridiculous post.

As far as EdinburghLivi has stated it seems there is a concrete plan in place on the condition Massone sells his shares? Does this give the SFL more wiggle room to try and encourage Massone to go, if by doing so McGurther can guarantee the fulfillment of fixtures? Or was everybody working on the presumption that this was the case anyway, not just that the offer for Massone's shares was a way to move forward and encourage potential investors.

[MCL]

Au contraire. I know fine well that rather than criticise the man who has killed off your club, you're aiming shots at other fans who were trying their best to save it, while you yourself have done f**k all.

You seem to be enjoying your club dying. Even though you're just trying to get bites, that's a strange thing to be doing when your team is soon to be extinct.

Au contraire aussi

In my opinion they weren't doing their best to save the club, they were doing their best to take it over. They colluded with the council and encouraged sponsors to hold back their support until the coup took place.

If they had put effort into steering Massone onto the correct path then we might be in a better position. They could have tried to purchase more shares with the money they have but they didn't. Why did the council agree to slash the rent by £100k a year for the "Trust" and not offer the same deal to Massone when they knew he was struggling ?

Massone is as mad as a bag of weasels but he was up against it for months. e.g. A "Trust" business plan which was designed to kick in after administration and WLC kicked off that process as planned.

Here's a post from Liviloins tonight -

I have remained away from the Forums for some time now, one because of work commitments and two because I was tired of all of the bickering.

Today we have reached the conclusion of a mutually assured destruction path that Massone and the Trust equally relished.

Look through these threads and there are loads of postings warning about Massone, don't give him (you mean the club) any money. We have a plan when it comes to Administration again from the Trust.

From Massone, it won't be Administration it will be Liquidation

Well Mr Massone and the Trust you combined intransigence has killed the club that I have supported since they came to Livingston. It is a sad day; I blame both parties in equal measure.

Where is the great Trust plan, surely it needs to be unveiled now, as for tomorrows meeting - the horses have bolted - you are wasting your time.

Sad, no very sad and disillusioned Livi fan

Edited July 29, 2009 by MCL

[unthinkable]

Yes that's right. Geoff Brown is to Saints what Calum 'Calum' Melville is to Dundee. What a ridiculous post.

It was a question, hence the ? I was under the impression that Brown personally bankrolled some of Saints wages fund. St. Johnstone are not renowned for a massive fan base. If I am wrong then fair enough St. Johnstone must do really well from commercial activites.

[MCL]

Oh I think you might be right on this one. Certainly, there has been some remarkably cold blooded calculating been going on twixt the Council and er, the Trust. Basically, they have collectively been seeking to assure not just for the survival of LFC, but the survival of LFC in their hands and debt free by having the admin practicioners take care of the dirty business while they stay well out of the way in case their whiter than white Trust coveralls get stained by the clinical awfulness of what was being hatched.

That Massone has said "bollocks to the lot of you" was not part of the plan. He has always been painted as being driven by nothing other than money. It seems he might be a wee bot more complex (or stupid) than we believed him to be. He has thrown the Trust's Glencoe style massacre of the creditors off the rails. For that, I give a high five to Mr Massone. Given all that has happened twixt 2004 and now, were I to have my time over, I'd be very very tempted to write off the cash, and drive the entire corrupt car crash of a club right off the nearest cliff. It just might be a message that needs to be shouted out very loudly.

One thing is for sure. For at least today, he is prepared to get nothing in order to ensure that those who he believes plotted against him (and they did), get absolutely the same thing..........nothing.

Now I know that constitutes a major weepie for the support. Thing is, maybe it is about time that the weepie applied to everyone, and not just the creditors............the people who have really been wronged in all of this.

Not once have I heard the Trust or anyone else say "We will honour the debt. We will go part time because the people of the town will support us through bad times and good, and 50% of our revenue will go purely towards debt repayment until every single penny has been paid back".

Nah, every little scheming moment has been taken up with bumping the creditors yet again.

Again we agree. people will start to talk ...

[Guest]

what happened to the lotterry winner that pished away a good bit of cash.

Four million down the Livi drain. Keane got him to sign up as guarantor for several major capital loans. When things got out of hand and the debts spiralled up from zero to the best part of ten million in 2004, Keane simply activated the guarantor clauses, and McGuinness lost near enough everything he had.

[The Old Northerner]

We're making progress at last! I'm going to fling Keane's name into the ring, didn't leave Livingston in the bets of positions either, did he? Why's he escaping the blame?

That's an easy one to answer. The successful times came under Keane (bar the CIS final in administration). Despised, he no doubt is, but he despised in private: to publicly condemn him would be to admit that the success is tainted

[Guest]

Yes that's right. Geoff Brown is to Saints what Calum 'Calum' Melville is to Dundee. What a ridiculous post.

As far as EdinburghLivi has stated it seems there is a concrete plan in place on the condition Massone sells his shares? Does this give the SFL more wiggle room to try and encourage Massone to go, if by doing so McGurther can guarantee the fulfillment of fixtures? Or was everybody working on the presumption that this was the case anyway, not just that the offer for Massone's shares was a way to move forward and encourage potential investors.

It all hangs on getting Massone's share of the club then normal service can resume at Livingston..............they pay no-one. In simple terms, the survival of LFC is put ahead of the rights of creditors. If small businesses go belly up because LFC refuse to honour their debts (again), then that is of no consequence to Livvy supporters, as the self righteous stance adopted by many applies solely to their club, and no-one else.

[Peil]

Four million down the Livi drain. Keane got him to sign up as guarantor for several major capital loans. When things got out of hand and the debts spiralled up from zero to the best part of ten million in 2004, Keane simply activated the guarantor clauses, and McGuinness lost near enough everything he had.

I actually feel sorry for the guy, who among us hasn't sat on the bog and thought 'A lottery win and I could back my team, get a couple of better players in/move towards a better stadium/win the cup'

He was niave enough to believe that wee snidey crook, but then again, it's wee snidey crooks like that in boardrooms up and down the country that somehow keep teams lurching form season to season. Look after number 1 and the devil take the hindmost

[Nameed]

It was a question, hence the ? I was under the impression that Brown personally bankrolled some of Saints wages fund. St. Johnstone are not renowned for a massive fan base. If I am wrong then fair enough St. Johnstone must do really well from commercial activites.

Correct - Geoff Brown was the inspiration for Calum this season, chuck a lot of cash at a playing squad in order to give the club the best opportunity (and thats all it is so far) of promotion. Mr Brown said this in the press last season, before his club wrapped up the title - then stated that it would be in the best interests of the first division clubs to perhaps go part-time (no mention of part time until his mob wrapped up the league) Brown is Saints sugar daddy - has been for years. So much so he couldnt sell his shares when he hoped to step down for retirement the season before last.

[LLD]

Au contraire aussi

In my opinion they weren't doing their best to save the club, they were doing their best to take it over. They colluded with the council and encouraged sponsors to hold back their support until the coup took place.

If they had put effort into steering Massone onto the correct path then we might be in a better position. They could have tried to purchase more shares with the money they have but they didn't. Why did the council agree to slash the rent by £100k a year for the "Trust" and not offer the same deal to Massone when they knew he was struggling ?

Massone is as mad as a bag of weasels but he was up against it for months. e.g. A "Trust" business plan which was designed to kick in after administration and WLC kicked off that process as planned.

Here's a post from Liviloins tonight -

I have remained away from the Forums for some time now, one because of work commitments and two because I was tired of all of the bickering.

Today we have reached the conclusion of a mutually assured destruction path that Massone and the Trust equally relished.

Look through these threads and there are loads of postings warning about Massone, don't give him (you mean the club) any money. We have a plan when it comes to Administration again from the Trust.

From Massone, it won't be Administration it will be Liquidation

Well Mr Massone and the Trust you combined intransigence has killed the club that I have supported since they came to Livingston. It is a sad day; I blame both parties in equal measure.

Where is the great Trust plan, surely it needs to be unveiled now, as for tomorrows meeting - the horses have bolted - you are wasting your time.

Sad, no very sad and disillusioned Livi fan

No-one can steer Angelo Massone on the right path, not even his best mate Angelini!! He's a lunatic.

Whether the Trust supported Massone is irrelevant - he has overspent by more than a million pounds in a year, and it's just not sustainable.

The Trust could have given him all the money in the coffers and it wouldn't have made a difference. Massone spent more on renting his townhouse in Edinburgh.

To blame the Trust or indeed any other supporters for the gross financial mismanagement of the club over the last year (and more) is a fucking joke.

The club should have been run on what it brought in, and if that meant cutting costs, going part time or whatever then that's what should have happened.

[7-2]

It was a question, hence the ? I was under the impression that Brown personally bankrolled some of Saints wages fund. St. Johnstone are not renowned for a massive fan base. If I am wrong then fair enough St. Johnstone must do really well from commercial activites.

All though this seems like a well run club but, if like Dundee with Melville, Brown decides to end his association then St. J are left with contracts they cannot afford. Both on a smaller scale than Gretna but risky nonetheless.

Thats not a question. Thats a completely false statement based on your imagination. Geoff Brown does not bankroll Saints.

We do in fact do really well from commercial activities. However we have lived within our means for over 20 years and suffered years in the First Division for it. The plus side is that we can sleep at nights knowing our club will still be there in the morning.

Edited July 29, 2009 by 7-2

[MCL]

No-one can steer Angelo Massone on the right path, not even his best mate Angelini!! He's a lunatic.

Whether the Trust supported Massone is irrelevant - he has overspent by more than a million pounds in a year, and it's just not sustainable.

The Trust could have given him all the money in the coffers and it wouldn't have made a difference. Massone spent more on renting his townhouse in Edinburgh.

To blame the Trust or indeed any other supporters for the gross financial mismanagement of the club over the last year (and more) is a fucking joke.

The club should have been run on what it brought in, and if that meant cutting costs, going part time or whatever then that's what should have happened.

As you pointed out previously Dave, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is that you took a gamble, all in, and lost the lot.

[Dev Alahan]

It was a question, hence the ? I was under the impression that Brown personally bankrolled some of Saints wages fund. St. Johnstone are not renowned for a massive fan base. If I am wrong then fair enough St. Johnstone must do really well from commercial activites.

Geoff Brown personally bankrolls nothing at Saints. He isn't Calum Melville or Douglas Rae.

You are right though, we do very well indeed from our commercial activities. The club has made itself self-sustaining at our current level and any likeness to Dundee's spend spend spend attitude is nonsense.

Correct - Geoff Brown was the inspiration for Calum this season, chuck a lot of cash at a playing squad in order to give the club the best opportunity (and thats all it is so far) of promotion. Mr Brown said this in the press last season, before his club wrapped up the title - then stated that it would be in the best interests of the first division clubs to perhaps go part-time (no mention of part time until his mob wrapped up the league) Brown is Saints sugar daddy - has been for years. So much so he couldnt sell his shares when he hoped to step down for retirement the season before last.

What a load of rubbish. There's barely an ounce of truth in that post.

[LLD]

As you pointed out previously Dave, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is that you took a gamble, all in, and lost the lot.

Fair enough, but I would respectfully suggest that you are seriously over-exaggerating the Trust's clout.

Only one person has signed the cheques at Almondvale this season and that's Angelo Massone. You have enough first hand experienced of his (and Angelini's) lies and incompetence to know that there were issues with paying bills and dealing with creditors since very early on last season.

The only thing that is surprising about the current situation is that it has taken so long to come about.

Edited July 29, 2009 by LLD