John MacLean Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Well they had been going along quite nicely since the 40's or 50's, when I believe they were founded. There were two pre-Mileson seasons, where they finished in respectable mid table positions, with a good nucleus of the staff and players from the non-league days, with a few 3rd Division standard players, joining as well, so they were not exactly overstretching at that point. As has been well documented, Super-Ro, was manager, kitman, groundsman, the lot. My mind might be playing tricks with me but after joining the league but before Mileson weren't Gretna is some financial trouble? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdenbeath Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Had the evil club murderer Jim ballantyne not had his way, they'd currently be playing in a 30,000 seater with a retractable roof under the shadow of the Titan crane.Such potential. The thing is JB done to Clydebank what the Steedman's done to the Shire in the 60s, swings and roundabouts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qos_75 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 My mind might be playing tricks with me but after joining the league but before Mileson weren't Gretna is some financial trouble? Nope. They were ticking along nicely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLD Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 If Livingston go under, their fans/trust will be judged and earn respect if they rise pheonix-like from the ashes and build a new club ala Clydebank, Gretna, Wimbledon etc. They will probably have to go it alone in the EOS league without McDougall holding their hand too. We'll see what happens but a big consideration is the number of junior clubs already in the area. Livingston has a junior club and there are eleven others in West Lothian. The area probably doesn't need another non-league football club. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdenbeath Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 We'll see what happens but a big consideration is the number of junior clubs already in the area. Livingston has a junior club and there are eleven others in West Lothian.The area probably doesn't need another non-league football club. Thats a fair point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi 293 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) I see the Livi Fans are having a fans fundraising party on Saturday night at the stadium, I await pelters from the usual subjects but isn't it a bit two-faced to be all concerned about creditors and staff but on the other hand use club assets and suppliers knowing that they won't be getting paid for?For all their protestations they don't really give a fcuk about anyone or anything as long as their club survives. It is using existing stock, which I assume has been paid for. If it's not been paid for, we're helping to raise money to pay back creditors while helping to save our club, surely? Or, alternatively, we could do nothing, see the club go into liquidation, and watch the creditors get absolutely no money whatsoever? What should we do? Edited July 28, 2009 by Livi 293 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) I've asked this before and you didn't answer. What do you think it gives you the power to veto? How does this veto work? I would imagine it's by means of a shareholders' agreement. As for the rather precise 26%, aren't there certain benefits to owning 75% or more of a company? EDIT: yes - a company can be delisted from the stock exchange (not relevant, of course) and, more crucially, the investor can transfer their debt - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4540939.stm Edited July 28, 2009 by Sir Calum Melville 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 We'll see what happens but a big consideration is the number of junior clubs already in the area. Livingston has a junior club and there are eleven others in West Lothian.The area probably doesn't need another non-league football club. Given the numbers of Livvy fans who've pledged to follow a reborn club at non-league level, surely it would make sense for those Livvy fans with enthusiasm, organisational talent and a reality-grounded sense of perspective to put their weight behind one of those eleven. Even a few dozen fans on the gates would be a help and volunteers are always welcome. Community Club - on your doorstep, if you want it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Given the numbers of Livvy fans who've pledged to follow a reborn club at non-league level, surely it would make sense for those Livvy fans with enthusiasm, organisational talent and a reality-grounded sense of perspective to put their weight behind one of those eleven. Even a few dozen fans on the gates would be a help and volunteers are always welcome. Community Club - on your doorstep, if you want it Livingston Utd would be the obvious choice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martins Hardies Love Child Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I'm not bothered about Livi dying but something thats not been said is the amount of players who basically stole highly inflated wages from these clubs knowing they never had the money to support it. Same happened at Gr£tna, football mercenaries who went for the quick buck then just walked away when it went tits up. Most are still plying their trade at other clubs today. Livi will die and the SFA/SFL will still not learn a single thing. Massone your a cock. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AND180Y Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Using existing stock, which has been paid for(?), or, if not, helping to raise money to pay back creditors while helping to save our club?Or, alternatively, we could do nothing, see the club go into liquidation, and watch the creditors get absolutely no money whatsoever? What should we do? Given your history with the electricity board, the event should be held in the dark. You do know that it is a crime for which the directors can be held personally liable to purchase goods or services with no means or intention to pay for them. Will the fans be taking personal liability for electricity and water used on the night along with the rent and rates? Didn't think so!! You are increasing the debts not reducing them. Existing stock, paid for? Aye right then. Oh and tomorrow is liquidation day, not Saturday. Awful lot of arrangements for post deadline day, someone know a secret? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingfaetheSooth Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 26% actually with the power to veto. Yes, my bad - I meant 25% not 15%. I don't actually think he could or would have chosen Queens because he couldn't have gained financial control so easily. He could have come in, invested his cash, been welcomed onto the board and ran up the same debts on false promises of course but he wouldn't have actually been able to takeover the club in the way he did Gretna.Your first paragraph I agree with. Voting Gretna in wasn't the wrong decision at the time and no-one could have foreseen the appearance of Mileson. Without him they'd almost certainly still be operating very nicely within their means in the 3rd division. Gretna were perfectly well run and profitable pre-Mileson. I don't see what McGregor being "hoodwinked" by Mileson has to do with that (if indeed he was). The Dee4Life Trust owns 26% of Dundee FC apparently. Not that it makes an awful lot of difference what the percentage is. Indeed. This is about the 4th or 5th time that question has been asked and answered on this thread already. It's also for appearances sake to sponsors, more embarrassing to have your top division play short than the bottom one. If Mileson had persuaded the Queens shareholders to elect him to the Board - who's to say that he couldn't have persuaded the existing shareholders to also sell him their shares and have got a majority 51% in time? Of course it is speculation, but the threat would have been there and he might have been able to seduce say the Harkness family that he had the best interests of the club at heart. I meant 25% of shares. A 25% shareholder can block special resolutions but not ordinary resolutions. Well they had been going along quite nicely since the 40's or 50's, when I believe they were founded. There were two pre-Mileson seasons, where they finished in respectable mid table positions, with a good nucleus of the staff and players from the non-league days, with a few 3rd Division standard players, joining as well, so they were not exactly overstretching at that point. As has been well documented, Super-Ro, was manager, kitman, groundsman, the lot. Of course McGregor was hoodwinked, as were quite a few more. I remember Brian Fulton, he used to be a referee in the Dumfries and District Amatuer League, and as nice a man you could not hope to meet (Despite him booking me more than once!) I think he was on the board for a while, he might even have been Chairman and I can tell you, he we no flash Harry and had no delusions of grandeur, he just loved his football. Sadly it was people like Brian and indeed McGregor that were ultimately seduced by Mileson's phoney millions and for that I'm sure they have a lot of regret. However, I can't see anything other than a well run club before Mileson and as Pacman suggests later on, they would probably still be here now if he hadn't came along. That is the sad part about it, however, these are the choices that sometimes present themselves, and as I say, who is to say the guardians of our club would not have made the same decision, had he flashed them his wad. All good stuff - but the combination of Mileson and Alexander proved a dangerous cocktail - their ego's seemed to egg each other on. I'd argue that a well-run club might mean one that would never have allowed this scenario to happen in the first place. I've asked this before and you didn't answer. What do you think it gives you the power to veto? How does this veto work? I'd like to hope that if Calum Melville wanted to for example groundshare with Dundeed United or move to a new stadium or (extreme example) merge the two Dundee clubs - he'd need to bring a special resolution to the shareholders and the Dee4life vote could block this. I'm not sure this is the case though. As if by magic, the holier than thou fuckwit appears. Like I give a f**k what you think doom boy. This has been done to death so many times, but at the end of the day 'many' supporters can think what they like. At the end of the day we didn't have 'many'.You can talk about breaking ranks, but there was no union. Meadowbank supporters were about as divided as anyone for years. Three buses to away games carrying less than 100 folk for a start. There was a simple choice at the time and I would suggest it was defined around whether you thought Livingston was going to be a continuation of Meadowbank Thistle. My view is that it is/was, so there is no new club. Livingston took to the field with the same manager, largely the same players and same officials as ended the season as Meadowbank. We even played in the same ground for a good while. Totally different to Clydebank/Airdrie, for example. You have your opinion and you are entitled to it, but it's just that. An opinion. It's not gospel truth. I don't think the numbers matter - I think what is important was sticking together. There was no union but you stood side-by-side on the terraces and sat on the same seats at the Commonwealth stadium - a little loyalty goes a long way. History shows that Livingston FC are a new club with very little to do with Meadowbank Thistle. If you are still in denial about that - then we'll have to agree to differ. It taints Meadowbank Thistle and their fans to compare the two. I do understand where you're coming from however - there are about a dozen ex-Wimbledon FC fans who still support the MK Dongs despite the club moving 60 miles, changing their kit colours, name and all the trophies having been handed back. I view them similar to the Japanese soldiers who were still denying that WW2 was over some 40 years after it ended. We'll see what happens but a big consideration is the number of junior clubs already in the area. Livingston has a junior club and there are eleven others in West Lothian.The area probably doesn't need another non-league football club. Indeed - though I can understand if some Livingston FC fans who want to start again would prefer a club that is run by the Livi trust so that they can never get fucked over again. Going to support a local Junior club (or indeed another SFL or SPL club) is OK for those who just want another game of fitba to watch on a Saturday - it won't suit the Livi hard-core and I can't see the Drum Beat Mafia (as an example) being welcomed at any other Scottish club. Perhaps some take-over of Livingston's Junior club is a possibility provided their supporters agree to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebanda's Handyman Services Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Friday: Livingston go into administrationMonday: Angelo Massone is urged to sell his shares to the administrator and accept the £25K offer, which he refuses. He is then told the offer stands until noon on Wednesday and failure to comply will see the administrator begin liquidation proceedings Thank you very much Doc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoctor Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 I'm not bothered about Livi dying but something thats not been said is the amount of players who basically stole highly inflated wages from these clubs knowing they never had the money to support it.Same happened at Gr£tna, football mercenaries who went for the quick buck then just walked away when it went tits up. Most are still plying their trade at other clubs today. Livi will die and the SFA/SFL will still not learn a single thing. Massone your a cock. This is surely a wind up, yeah? How can you blame the players? At the end of the day, they were made an offer and they took it. If you have a mortgage, bills to pay etc and a company wants to pay you a silly wage, you're going to take it, aren't you? Would you worry about the state of the company making the offer? I don't think so. The players have got bills, families to feed and all the other expenses that life has, like everyone else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoctor Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 Thank you very much Doc. Happy to help, Andy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 £280,000 or so owed in rent to the Council, a reported £300,000 owed to the Inland Revenue, and a group of Italian shysters in charge....My dancing shoes are polished for them as a club, while my sympathies lie with people like the groundsman, ticket lassies, cleaners, etc, etc. My money is on Wednesday's deadline being extended due to some last minute consortium wanting more time to 'look at the accounts in detail'....then the next 'final deadline' will come and go.... it's fcuking Gretna all over again. McGruther made it clear that the deadline won't be extended, nor is the 25k figure negotiable. If Massone doesn't bite by Wednesday lunchtime, game over- the club will be gone by the following evening. I'm not going to spend all day adding speculation to this monster thread- there's nothing else really to say now until either Massone accepts, or the deadline passes without a transfer of his shares. I'm still not clear at all why Gordon MacDougall wants to take over and why he suddenly seems so obsessed with this club. From his time at Cowden I know he is a football man and I'd doubt that any of the reasons which is attracting the shysters to Almondvale, at present, would interest him particularly. (Travelling Man's latest piece of Rankine propaganda on the last page is dark comedy gold) If Massone does buckle, I think the club will survive. Massone has never buckled yet and seems very stubborn, but then again Livingston always emerge out of messes like this unscathed. My gut still tells me the latter will happen, although they may face unprecedented sanctions from the SFL. Interestingly, the fans now seem involved in a frantic last ditch round of fund raising but no one is yet talking about forming a new club and starting again. If Livingston do fold, my hunch is that no trust/fan owned team will be formed to take their place in non league- no plans exist and the support seems too bitterly divided. There's been some irritation from Livingston fans in the last page or so at the lack of sympathy from the rest of us. Deep down, though, they must realise why that sympathy is in pretty short supply. I do feel sorry on some level for the loyal supporters but, as a club, if they fold, I'll personally be very glad to be shot of them. They've simply taken the piss for far too long. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Perhaps some take-over of Livingston's Junior club is a possibility provided their supporters agree to it. Pop down to their first home game and ask them. It won't take too long, unfortunately 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingfaetheSooth Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I would imagine it's by means of a shareholders' agreement.As for the rather precise 26%, aren't there certain benefits to owning 75% or more of a company? EDIT: yes - a company can be delisted from the stock exchange (not relevant, of course) and, more crucially, the investor can transfer their debt - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4540939.stm It was the Manchester united thing that first made me aware of the 25% shareholding thing. There was a massive campaign of buying up MUFC Ltd shares among the supporters but ultimately it was pissing in the wind and Glazer got the 90% needed to hoover up the rest. I'm not bothered about Livi dying but something thats not been said is the amount of players who basically stole highly inflated wages from these clubs knowing they never had the money to support it.Same happened at Gr£tna, football mercenaries who went for the quick buck then just walked away when it went tits up. Most are still plying their trade at other clubs today. Livi will die and the SFA/SFL will still not learn a single thing. Massone your a cock. IO don't blame the players for taking inflated wages on a decent contract - you have to blame the football authorities for not regulating the clubs better. Pop down to their first home game and ask them. It won't take too long, unfortunately I can imagine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 My mind might be playing tricks with me but after joining the league but before Mileson weren't Gretna is some financial trouble? No. None at all. With a fine social club on site and a profitable Sunday Market that yielded decent cash flow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John MacLean Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 No. None at all.With a fine social club on site and a profitable Sunday Market that yielded decent cash flow. Where I go that idea from then is a complete mystery. :-) Thanks for clearing up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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