Livingston - all the threads merged

[Spain]

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but if Livi do go to the wall, why would the 3rd have to go down to 9 teams instead of the 1st?

Why does the SFL think that the 'smaller'clubs have to take the financial hit of losing the takings of two home games next season?

Perhaps the SFL would have to compensate the clubs in some way for losing two home games. And of course compensation would not need to be as high to account for the less attended games of the third, compared to the first.

[Tonsilitis]

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but if Livi do go to the wall, why would the 3rd have to go down to 9 teams instead of the 1st?

Why does the SFL think that the 'smaller'clubs have to take the financial hit of losing the takings of two home games next season?

Because:

Loss of four games in the 1st with average attendance 2500 @£12 net of VAT = £120,000

Loss of four games in the third with average attendance 500 @ £8 net of VAT = £16,000

Its a lot cheaper to compensate the third division than the first.

[RedV]

The employee ASDA example doesn't take away from my argument. In both cases you feel for the employees, in neither case would others feel sorry for the company itself,

Too right. Asda's crap.

[General]

Were Gretna that well run though? McGreggor was there all along and he was hoodwinked too.

The Dundee fans are currently wanking over Calum Melville, a businessman with property interests who supports Aberdeen - I'm currently struggling to see the difference though granted Dundee FC are a much better long-term proposition than Gretna and the Dee for Life trust still hold a 15% shareholding in the Dundee FC Limited.

26% actually with the power to veto.

[Skyline Drifter]

In fairness the Gretna that was voted in and lived well within its means for the first two seasons in the SFL, was a very different beast to the one that died last season. If I remember correctly there were a few dissenting voices in Gretna regarding Mileson's influence on the club, to begin with anyway.

That said, I think most clubs would have struggled to reject his indecent proposal. Gretna were a very well run club, so it's hard too see how anyone could have predicted what would happen, when they were elected. It just so happens Mileson chose Gretna, but it could equally have been Berwick, Ayr or Queens for that matter (These teams are just examples for arguments sake, but I think you get my drift).

I don't actually think he could or would have chosen Queens because he couldn't have gained financial control so easily. He could have come in, invested his cash, been welcomed onto the board and ran up the same debts on false promises of course but he wouldn't have actually been able to takeover the club in the way he did Gretna.

Your first paragraph I agree with. Voting Gretna in wasn't the wrong decision at the time and no-one could have foreseen the appearance of Mileson. Without him they'd almost certainly still be operating very nicely within their means in the 3rd division.

Were Gretna that well run though? McGreggor was there all along and he was hoodwinked too.

The Dundee fans are currently wanking over Calum Melville, a businessman with property interests who supports Aberdeen - I'm currently struggling to see the difference though granted Dundee FC are a much better long-term proposition than Gretna and the Dee for Life trust still hold a 15% shareholding in the Dundee FC Limited.

Gretna were perfectly well run and profitable pre-Mileson. I don't see what McGregor being "hoodwinked" by Mileson has to do with that (if indeed he was).

The Dee4Life Trust owns 26% of Dundee FC apparently. Not that it makes an awful lot of difference what the percentage is.

Perhaps the SFL would have to compensate the clubs in some way for losing two home games. And of course compensation would not need to be as high to account for the less attended games of the third, compared to the first.

Because:

Loss of four games in the 1st with average attendance 2500 @£12 net of VAT = £120,000

Loss of four games in the third with average attendance 500 @ £8 net of VAT = £16,000

Its a lot cheaper to compensate the third division than the first.

Indeed. This is about the 4th or 5th time that question has been asked and answered on this thread already. It's also for appearances sake to sponsors, more embarrassing to have your top division play short than the bottom one.

[qos_75]

Were Gretna that well run though? McGreggor was there all along and he was hoodwinked too.

The Dundee fans are currently wanking over Calum Melville, a businessman with property interests who supports Aberdeen - I'm currently struggling to see the difference though granted Dundee FC are a much better long-term proposition than Gretna and the Dee for Life trust still hold a 15% shareholding in the Dundee FC Limited.

Well they had been going along quite nicely since the 40's or 50's, when I believe they were founded. There were two pre-Mileson seasons, where they finished in respectable mid table positions, with a good nucleus of the staff and players from the non-league days, with a few 3rd Division standard players, joining as well, so they were not exactly overstretching at that point. As has been well documented, Super-Ro, was manager, kitman, groundsman, the lot.

Of course McGregor was hoodwinked, as were quite a few more. I remember Brian Fulton, he used to be a referee in the Dumfries and District Amatuer League, and as nice a man you could not hope to meet (Despite him booking me more than once!) I think he was on the board for a while, he might even have been Chairman and I can tell you, he we no flash Harry and had no delusions of grandeur, he just loved his football.

Sadly it was people like Brian and indeed McGregor that were ultimately seduced by Mileson's phoney millions and for that I'm sure they have a lot of regret. However, I can't see anything other than a well run club before Mileson and as Pacman suggests later on, they would probably still be here now if he hadn't came along. That is the sad part about it, however, these are the choices that sometimes present themselves, and as I say, who is to say the guardians of our club would not have made the same decision, had he flashed them his wad.

[Skyline Drifter]

26% actually with the power to veto.

I've asked this before and you didn't answer. What do you think it gives you the power to veto? How does this veto work?

[Bankies Alive]

The SFL are a joke organisation.

Look at the shambles they caused when they knocked back Airdrie for Gretna!!!!

Now they have the prospect of promoting teams 3 days before the season starts,you couldnt make this sort of stuff up.

They make the SJFA look well run and thats saying something.

[TheDoctor]

The SFL are a joke organisation.

Look at the shambles they caused when they knocked back Airdrie for Gretna!!!!

Now they have the prospect of promoting teams 3 days before the season starts,you couldnt make this sort of stuff up.

They make the SJFA look well run and thats saying something.

Clydebank fan slaughtering SFL shocker!!

Next you'll be telling us what month Christmas is in

[wearealldoomed]

Livingston, the club or the fans get no sympathy from me. I will reserve that for the fans of teams like Medowbank Thistle and Clydebank. The real tragedy of this whole situation is that another team which cheated the system, i.e. Airdrie United, could once again be the benefactors.

Still bitter, then? I suppose you could invent a betting scandal to cover up your team's almighty balls-up that year.

If you'd bothered to read the posts of a number of Airdrie fans on here, the majority of us DON'T want to be promoted as a result of this. In what way does the club benefit from another season of languishing at the bottom of the division, with supporters disappearing like snow from a dyke as we go?

Irrespective of what forum Hopefull_Ton refers, I find myself agreeing with almost every word if his posts. I would argue that many other fans would have supported the action of their Chairman in buying Clydebank's league place if their club was fucked. Self interest is a hard emotion to ignore.

If Livingston go under, their fans/trust will be judged and earn respect if they rise pheonix-like from the ashes and build a new club ala Clydebank, Gretna, Wimbledon etc. They will probably have to go it alone in the EOS league without McDougall holding their hand too.

As if by magic, the holier than thou fuckwit appears.

Because:

Loss of four games in the 1st with average attendance 2500 @£12 net of VAT = £120,000

Loss of four games in the third with average attendance 500 @ £8 net of VAT = £16,000

Its a lot cheaper to compensate the third division than the first.

I'd also argue that the loss of an automatic relegation place could wreck attendances at the bottom end of the first. That's not a problem in the third, where the bottom few teams are playing for f'ck all each season regardless.

Too right. Asda's crap.

Very true.

Edited July 28, 2009 by wearealldoomed

[qos_75]

The SFL are a joke organisation.

Look at the shambles they caused when they knocked back Airdrie for Gretna!!!!

Now they have the prospect of promoting teams 3 days before the season starts,you couldnt make this sort of stuff up.

They make the SJFA look well run and thats saying something.

I'm not sure how you can actually blame the SFL for the Livi debacle to be honest. Until Livi went into administration there was nothing they could do. Of course it did seem clear to most people that we would get to this stage, but the SFL could not preempt this.

Edited to add:

Going by your assessment, the SFL should have taken Clydebank out of the SFL a couple of seasons before Airdrie took you over. I mean it was clear to all you were fucked financially, so it was only a matter of time.

Edited July 28, 2009 by qos_75

[Ebanda's Handyman Services]

I haven't been keeping up with this at all so can some kind soul please summarise Livvy's current situation.

Is today some kind of D-day for them?....

[Livi 293]

..........but the minute the chickens come home to roost, then Livingston want to be treated as nothing other than a company. That's how they go about shaking off their creditors. It's a perfectly valid comparison I am afraid.

Why should your "emotional attachment" to Livingston be considered as something that eclipses everything else? I get really irked when football fans (of which I am one) paint the picture of how precious their emotions are, and that the survival of their club transcends the base instincts of creditors whose sole driver is filthy lucre. So when things get down and dirty, where is it footbsll clubs run to?????........................you got it in one..........company law. Fans then have this outpouring of weirdly shifted principled emotion that they would not give the time of day to in any other aspect of their lives.

I'm not saying emotions should 'eclipse everything.' Not at all. In fact I believe you just put a whole lot of nonsense in my mouth, said it for me, and then threw it back at me. All I said was it's easy to feel for any football fans that lose their football club. That's it. That's my point.

I'm not saying that everyone feeling sad should make the 'nasty council' or 'evil creditors' go away. I'm not saying that emotion should exempt Livingston, or any other football club, from financial penalties or company law. Just, solely, that you can feel sorry for consumers of a football club in a way you do not for consumers of a shopping chain. That's it.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Livi 293

[TheDoctor]

I haven't been keeping up with this at all so can some kind soul please summarise Livvy's current situation.

Is today some kind of D-day for them?....

Friday: Livingston go into administration

Monday: Angelo Massone is urged to sell his shares to the administrator and accept the £25K offer, which he refuses. He is then told the offer stands until noon on Wednesday and failure to comply will see the administrator begin liquidation proceedings

[cowdenbeath]

The SFL are a joke organisation.

Look at the shambles they caused when they knocked back Airdrie for Gretna!!!!

Now they have the prospect of promoting teams 3 days before the season starts,you couldnt make this sort of stuff up.

They make the SJFA look well run and thats saying something.

As mentioned by others Gretna were a well run non-league side playing at a decent level in England and were probably a good option at the time and also as mentioned if the chain smoking hippy hadn't shown up they would probably still be an establised 2nd/3rd division side.

At the time they would have been in better shape than the Bankies who were renting a ground miles away from their fan base with their only assets being a set of strips and a clapped out mini bus.

[AND180Y]

I see the Livi Fans are having a fans fundraising party on Saturday night at the stadium, I await pelters from the usual subjects but isn't it a bit two-faced to be all concerned about creditors and staff but on the other hand use club assets and suppliers knowing that they won't be getting paid for?

For all their protestations they don't really give a fcuk about anyone or anything as long as their club survives.

[LLD]

Many supporters would see you as a scab for breaking ranks and going along with the move. Livingston FC was a new club - Meadowbank died the day it moved. The vast majority of Meadowbank fans were against the move and refused to be taken in by Mr Blobby. You sold your fitba soul to a new club in a new town.

You were entitled to your view and to start following the new club but don't expect any sympathy from those who saw it differently now it looks like your new club is fucked.

This has been done to death so many times, but at the end of the day 'many' supporters can think what they like. At the end of the day we didn't have 'many'.

You can talk about breaking ranks, but there was no union. Meadowbank supporters were about as divided as anyone for years. Three buses to away games carrying less than 100 folk for a start.

There was a simple choice at the time and I would suggest it was defined around whether you thought Livingston was going to be a continuation of Meadowbank Thistle. My view is that it is/was, so there is no new club.

Livingston took to the field with the same manager, largely the same players and same officials as ended the season as Meadowbank. We even played in the same ground for a good while.

Totally different to Clydebank/Airdrie, for example.

You have your opinion and you are entitled to it, but it's just that. An opinion. It's not gospel truth.

Edited July 28, 2009 by LLD

[cowdenbeath]

I'm not sure how you can actually blame the SFL for the Livi debacle to be honest. Until Livi went into administration there was nothing they could do. Of course it did seem clear to most people that we would get to this stage, but the SFL could not preempt this.

I suppose from a legal point of view they couldn't do anything until they went into administration as you say.

[ayrmad]

In fairness the Gretna that was voted in and lived well within its means for the first two seasons in the SFL, was a very different beast to the one that died last season. If I remember correctly there were a few dissenting voices in Gretna regarding Mileson's influence on the club, to begin with anyway.

That said, I think most clubs would have struggled to reject his indecent proposal. Gretna were a very well run club, so it's hard too see how anyone could have predicted what would happen, when they were elected. It just so happens Mileson chose Gretna, but it could equally have been Berwick, Ayr or Queens for that matter (These teams are just examples for arguments sake, but I think you get my drift).

His 1st team hunted him and his cash.

[wearealldoomed]

As mentioned by others Gretna were a well run non-league side playing at a decent level in England and were probably a good option at the time and also as mentioned if the chain smoking hippy hadn't shown up they would probably still be an establised 2nd/3rd division side.

At the time they would have been in better shape than the Bankies who were renting a ground miles away from their fan base with their only assets being a set of strips and a clapped out mini bus.

Had the evil club murderer Jim ballantyne not had his way, they'd currently be playing in a 30,000 seater with a retractable roof under the shadow of the Titan crane.

Such potential.