Tormod Macleod Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I'm polishing up ma dancing shoes for Wednesday 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLD Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Wrong. There have been a couple or three recently for whom I have had some sympathy, and LLD for whom I have had long term respect. He was the one and only dissenting voice on LiviLions last year, and was treated the way anyone who told the truth about Livvy was treated.............with absolute and utter contempt. That he was ripped off in 2004 yet hung around to still support the mob at Almondvale says he is either completely dumb, or operates at a higher ethical level than the majority of his peers. You choose which.There's no need for me to play any kind of sympathy game. None at all. My stance has remained consistent. I want Livvy to pay everyone all of their money. If they won't do that, then I do not want a "take this or you will get f**k all" stance to succeed again. I want them erased off the face of Scottish football. If it happens, I won't click my heels. If it doesn't happen, I won't hang my head in despair. It will however, make it pretty clear to me the depths to which the game has been dragged by the involvement of company law, and public money. Sign o' the times right enough. Thanks for the kind words... I think Needless to say that I still hope the club will survive and thrive, although as things stand it's looking pretty grim. Hopefully there will be people reading this who will have some degree of empathy for genuine fans who go week in week out and back their team. I went to see my first Meadowbank Thistle game as an 11 year old kid over two decades ago, and I will be truly devastated if my club dies. What upsets me most is that my 9 year old boy will be left without a team to support. We won't be back to senior football. I realise that Livingston will never be popular (Meadowbank weren't either despite the present day platitudes) but this situation is one that bigger and more established clubs have found themselves in before, and will find themselves in again. There are always going to be unscrupulous businessmen looking to get into football and some will succeed. No football supporter should have to put up with what honest, dedicated ordinary Joes like me are having to put up with this week. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleubrazil Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Debt is apparently £1.7m, You would have to be crazy to inherit that amount of debt and McDougall is no fool. Its not looking good for you guys. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLD Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I'm polishing up ma dancing shoes for Wednesday For a moment there I felt anger reading your shite, but I actually feel sorry for you. As a football supporter you're the lowest of the low. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The ghost of Jim Morton Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 From Livilions The Trust board met with the administrator Donald McGruther this evening at the stadium. We had a full and open discussion on the situation we find ourselves in at this moment in time and on the options for the club going forward. As of this evening the Trust can confirm that there is only a faint hope that the club can come through the current crisis, but we must all continue to believe this is possible. The key to any progress is Angelo Massone accepting the offer the administrator made to him today for his shares. Nothing else can be done, until that particular piece of business is concluded. As we know from reports, Mr Massone is currently refusing to comply with this request. We cannot hide the fact that, if he does not accept by Wednesday lunchtime, the administrator will have no option but to begin the process of liquidation. The level of debt is critical, and we can confirm that the two main creditors are West Lothian Council and HMRC, who are both owed over £500k. This contradicts Mr Massone’s minuted assertion at the Fan’s meeting a few short weeks ago that the figure owed to HMRC was £190k. It is clear that, if West Lothian Council had not taken the action it did, then HMRC would have. Other debts, plus Mr Massone’s own claim as a major creditor, takes the debt to around £1.7m. This is a huge level of debt for the club to have amassed in the short time Mr Massone has been in ownership, considering he bought the club for £1, and inherited a debt of around £270k. There is no need to mention that none of this is the fault of the supporters, no matter what claims are being made by the owner or anyone else. Looking beyond Wednesday noon, should Mr Massone accept the offer on the table, the next step will be to assure the SFL that the club can fulfill it’s fixtures for the season, starting with the cup game on Saturday. Should the SFL not accept that assurance, then the club will in all likelihood fold. We cannot fool ourselves into thinking that we have a good chance of survival – it is looking bleak. However, as supporters we must take heart from knowing that there is some small hope, and that the Trust and Gordon McDougall are doing everything they can to get the club through. Therefore we MUST all continue to do what we are doing over the next few days in the firm belief that there will still be a club to follow. PLEASE continue to plan for the Cup game on Saturday – the club needs the supporters to turn out in numbers. If you haven’t booked yourself on the supporters buses, visit here to do so. PLEASE continue to give your support to the Trust Fighting Fund for Livingston FC, and give as much as you can – the money donated to this fund will be vital to the club over the next few days! We can announce that we will host an Open Fans’ Meeting at the Almondvale Suite on Thursday evening, doors open 6.45 for a 7pm start. Gordon McDougall will be in attendance and we will have a question and answer session, where plans for the immediate future of the club, and the long term vision, can be discussed. More details to follow. We are also planning a fundraising evening in the Almondvale Suite on Saturday night (1st of August) following the Cup tie. Details to follow, but we are aiming to have a disco, raffle, fun fundraisers and more. Please leave your Saturday evening free and come along to this event. All proceeds will go towards the Fighting Fund. There has been talk on these forums of fans spending money on club merchandise and season tickets. We must stress that this should not be acted on at this point in time, as the money will not go to the club in the right way, i.e. it will still end up with Mr Massone. Fan donations and spending will be most effective if the money is donated to the Fighting Fund as soon as possible, as this will be given directly to the administrator or to the managers taking the club forward. Adding to the fund in this way will give us a good sum of money to assist with the immediate spending required to start the season. This may include helping achieve the safety certificate, and help towards some of the unpaid staff salaries, as some members of staff are continuing to work unpaid to help the club through. In addition to supporting the fundraising efforts, we would call on all Livi supporters to join the Trust as soon as possible – it is only £5, but strong numbers will give us the strongest voice possible over the coming season. If we survive, we cannot let this situation happen again. We will have one chance and one chance only to get it right, and the fans hold the key to ensuring that happens. Finally, Mr Massone has repeatedly claimed in the press and at meetings that he wants the best for the club, and that he has Livingston FC in his heart. We therefore urge Mr Massone to do what is best for the club right now. Angelo, please accept the very fair offer which the administrator has placed before you, and allow others to take the club out of this crisis. The alternative is that there is no club at all, and we believe that you yourself do not want this to happen. Whatever differences and difficulties you have had with the supporters, creditors, press, or anyone else over the last few months, you would be respected for doing what is right and proper, and you would give the club a fighting chance for survival. LFL Trust board 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reignman Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Now, this may be completely wrong but... If Massone does sell his shares to The Interim Manager he will simply go on the list of creditors for this amount? McDougall doesn't make a deal (although it sounds like he already maybe has a gentlemans agreement which is why McGruther is making this move), club goes into liquidation, assets are stripped and Massone gets whatever pitiful amount in the pound is dished out to non-preferential creditors, thus tasting his own medicine of the situation he has helped create for all the other creditors? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southview Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 The figures being quoted on livilions following the meeting between the administrator and the trust are truly breathtaking. The administrator has not said how much Massone is due from the £1.7m of debt which again leads me to believe that he is not owed anything like the amount he is trying to claim. A few posters have said a bit of brinkmanship is going on between administrator/Massone in that he will refuse £25k but might/probably accept £50k on Wednesday morning...he should be in no doubt that he will get nothing if he fails to agree to the deal. After months of speculation, rumour and uncertainty, it all comes down to Massone - take the deal and the club survives; refuse and the club dies. Simple as that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley D Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 You're looking at £300,000+ to clear a CVA at 15p in the pound (once you factor in administrator costs etc) for that level of debt. On top of that they are then going to need a good chunk of money in order to operate as I can't see people queuing up to offer any credit terms on anything. Even on a conservative estimate, someone is going to have to shell out £500k in order to dig the club out of this hole and do you really want the kind of eejit who's stupid enough to do that running your club?....the kind of person you're in the process of trying to get rid of!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AND180Y Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) You're looking at £300,000+ to clear a CVA at 15p in the pound (once you factor in administrator costs etc) for that level of debt.On top of that they are then going to need a good chunk of money in order to operate as I can't see people queuing up to offer any credit terms on anything. Even on a conservative estimate, someone is going to have to shell out £500k in order to dig the club out of this hole and do you really want the kind of eejit who's stupid enough to do that running your club?....the kind of person you're in the process of trying to get rid of!!! To be fair the CVA could be proposed over 3 or 5 years, so the initial requirement whilst hefty wouldn't be as bad as you illustrated? Edited July 27, 2009 by AND180Y 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 For a moment there I felt anger reading your shite, but I actually feel sorry for you. As a football supporter you're the lowest of the low. Why should football supporters be expected to feel sorry for Livingston? Should the general public feel sorry when a company goes bust for financial mismanagement? I don't want to see the club go to the wall, but quite frankly; clubs who take risks and bury up piles of debt deserve to go bust. Spending money you don't have is also effectively cheating. It's harsh that the fans have to lose their club because of boardroom mismanagement, but teams really have to learn to live within their means. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi 293 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Why should football supporters be expected to feel sorry for Livingston? Should the general public feel sorry when a company goes bust for financial mismanagement? I don't want to see the club go to the wall, but quite frankly; clubs who take risks and bury up piles of debt deserve to go bust. Spending money you don't have is also effectively cheating. It's harsh that the fans have to lose their club because of boardroom mismanagement, but teams really have to learn to live within their means. I don't know many people who feel emotionally attached to a company. Shite comparison. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I don't know many people who feel emotionally attached to a company. Shite comparison. Why on earth would fans of other teams be emotionally attached to Livingston? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley D Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 To be fair the CVA could be proposed over 3 or 5 years, so the initial requirement whilst hefty wouldn't be as bad as you illustrated? They would still need someone to guarantee the debt as they have no assets whatsoever on which to secure it. Given the clubs history of poor financial management, is anyone going to accept a prolonged payment plan?...even if they can find someone willing to take the risk on securing it? I hope I'm wrong. As I've said elsewhere I think Community Run Clubs are the way forward for many...I'm just not convinced there's enough left here to pin/build that on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruthenight Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I do believe our CVA last time we went into admin was 2.8p in the pound. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Why should football supporters be expected to feel sorry for Livingston? Should the general public feel sorry when a company goes bust for financial mismanagement? I don't want to see the club go to the wall, but quite frankly; clubs who take risks and bury up piles of debt deserve to go bust. Spending money you don't have is also effectively cheating. It's harsh that the fans have to lose their club because of boardroom mismanagement, but teams really have to learn to live within their means. Well you certainly have milked the sympathy for years about the trio we bought! If we did not buy them perhaps this fate would have met you then & we would not have to listen to your persistant bubbling about it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbers Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Just read the post ref the meeting. Quote There has been talk on these forums of fans spending money on club merchandise and season tickets. We must stress that this should not be acted on at this point in time, as the money will not go to the club in the right way, i.e. it will still end up with Mr Massone Unquote Firstly this is incorrect. The only person who has access to any monies now is the administrator. This includes any kit sales etc. What we are reading here is simply too little too late. What is needed is one huge fundraising event something on the lines that can involve everyone in the livingston and surrounding area. There is sufficient space around the ground to organise a mammoth bring ab buy sale. Door to door collections of unwanted items given to the club supporters who in turn sell what evers given on the chosen day. you could easily raise many 10s of thousands if it was done properly. And as its near to the almondvale centre i have no doubt many business from there would help as it could bring in many many people on the day. The only way, with this reported amount of debt, your going to save your club is in fundraising by thinking big. Anything less and its finished for you. One final point. The statement says massone has lied and the debt to hmrc is larger than he says at £190k yet they say in the next breath the total owed is £500k to wlc and hmrc which if my matchs is correct shows the debt to hmrc about what massone said. Personally for the fans of livi i would like to see the club carry on, but with all the contradictions and way of thinking i just dont think they should be saved. Yes i know a contradiction in itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Saintee Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Looking desperate. If the worst happens, what will Livi fans do? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Well you certainly have milked the sympathy for years about the trio we bought! If we did not buy them perhaps this fate would have met you then & we would not have to listen to your persistant bubbling about it! Maybe you'll find the "persistent bubbling" is actually directed at those who put us in that mess and not the sale itself. Our club took it's warning from it's poor financial situation. Maybe if Livi had done the same this wouldn't have happened 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi 293 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) Why on earth would fans of other teams be emotionally attached to Livingston? I didn't mean that. Do you feel sorry for Livingston fans? When you said, "why should football supporters feel sorry for Livingston?" I took that to include the club's support. Human decency generally kicks in to feel sorry for someone who looses something they love. You compared Livi to a company going bust, say ASDA, for example, which doesn't have a support to feel sorry for. Edited July 27, 2009 by Livi 293 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbers Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 No it doesnt. It says they are both owed over half a million, not each owed that amount. A good play on words that will deceive many peoploe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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