Livingston - all the threads merged

[Benjamin_Nevis]

I'll admit I'm still in denial that there is a possibility that I could be without a club in a week's time.

Has anyone actually confirmed that the council action is liquidation rather than administration? I suppose it's false hope but regardless, I'd like confirmation if anyone has it.

Quite simply, a CVA is the only way the club will be retained in it's current form of which I love so much. I'm not sure I'd be able to get into a new Livi in the same way I am with the current version so that's what I'm hoping for. I realise that this will piss off a lot of people who are owed money but I think if we were actually given the chance to run the club under responsible ownership that the small creditors could get their full money paid back in the long term (i.e small businesses and staff) through any profits the club from then on.

It's what I'd like to happen anyway, if the trust or McDougall gets the chance to take over. I realise it probably won't happen though.

Such a plan would require Massone to have sudden change of heart and hand the club over to the Trust/McDougall. Sadly Massone seems hell-bent on staying put unless someone gives him a wedge of cash, that he *claims* to have invested.

Even if the above happened, then getting an agreement with WLC wouldn't be your problem. IMO the Inland Revenue, having no local interest here, will probably not agree to any substantially reduced payment scheme and would have no qualms in winding the club up.

I think starting again in a different form is the only way there's going to be senior football in Livingston i'm afraid.

[Ivo den Bieman]

I'll admit I'm still in denial that there is a possibility that I could be without a club in a week's time.

Has anyone actually confirmed that the council action is liquidation rather than administration? I suppose it's false hope but regardless, I'd like confirmation if anyone has it.

Quite simply, a CVA is the only way the club will be retained in it's current form of which I love so much. I'm not sure I'd be able to get into a new Livi in the same way I am with the current version so that's what I'm hoping for. I realise that this will piss off a lot of people who are owed money but I think if we were actually given the chance to run the club under responsible ownership that the small creditors could get their full money paid back in the long term (i.e small businesses and staff) through any profits the club from then on.

It's what I'd like to happen anyway, if the trust or McDougall gets the chance to take over. I realise it probably won't happen though.

I wouldn't despair just yet, there's still a week to go and has has been shown countless times in the past Livingston have the luck of the devil in these situations. It looks grim on balance at the moment but it wouldn't surprise me to see Livingston emerge largely unscathed, by either the emergence of another sawdust Caesar, who hasn't yet shown his hand, or by "Livi-minded" councillors winning further time behind closed doors.

I'm only going by what Tonsilitis has posted, as he is the expert, but the council's writ will result in liquidation if payment of the rent isn't made, as I understand it. If no money is forthcoming when the statutory notice period expires, an interim liquidator will be appointed and that's the end of the current club. The term "administration" is being peddled about by journalists who seem not to understand what they're talking about. Unless Massone does it himself, which given his MO of pig headedness, arrogance, deceit and general fantasism, isn't likely, then administration isn't going to happen.

By the way, the Herald article suggested that the Inland Revenue had *not* received money from the Griffiths sale, and that the HMRC spokesman wouldn't be drawn on their approach to the club's difficulties. Scottish Power haven;t yet been paid either.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Ivo den Bieman

[Allstars #9]

Airdrie United took over the Bankies the same summer that Airdrieonians went bust, Airdrie played 1st divison, went bust then played following season as Airdrie United in Division 2 after stealing Clydebank.

More ill informed lies

we have a receipt

[Rovers_Lad]

Fs

A team on the brink but still managed to have just under 30 players at training with offers from some SPL clubs who want to send players out on loan

[Ivo den Bieman]

Fs

A team on the brink but still managed to have just under 30 players at training with offers from some SPL clubs who want to send players out on loan

see, this is the kind of stuff, along with the views of John Murphy, that makes it seem as though Livingston will survive, despite everything off the pitch saying they shouldn't. A week is a long time for the Council's spine to melt, and they also will benefit from the SFL's desperation that they shouldn't go to the wall.

[jimbo]

Fs

A team on the brink but still managed to have just under 30 players at training with offers from some SPL clubs who want to send players out on loan

You've lost me there. Is there a link to something I have missed?

Edited July 8, 2009 by jimbo

[Rovers_Lad]

In one of the rags today,the Daily Retard to be precise so it must be true

Murphy

"With under 19`s and trialists we have close to 30 guys in training which is good."I do want to strengthen the squad but we must be creative."I have already been contacted by some SPL clubs who want to send players out on loan"

[Larsson.]

Livi are trying to flog early bird season ticket offers...surely nobody would be stupid enough to buy these at the mo!!!...

http://www.livingstonfc.co.uk/news_070709_1.php

[jimbo]

In one of the rags today,the Daily Retard to be precise so it must be true

Murphy

"With under 19`s and trialists we have close to 30 guys in training which is good."I do want to strengthen the squad but we must be creative."I have already been contacted by some SPL clubs who want to send players out on loan"

I suppose John Murphy and that side of the club have to shut themselves off to the rest of the crap and just do what they do. Apart from anything else they have to keep fit. From what I know there must be one hell of a lot of trialists though.

As for the plea for folk to buy season tickets what can I say!! If I did not buy one of the "early birds" before I am hardly likely to chuck my money at any more of Massone's pleas for help now that the bailiffs are knocking at the door. Why can't the eejit just go and let us see what we can do to salvage something from his mess.

[Guest]

I'll admit I'm still in denial that there is a possibility that I could be without a club in a week's time.

Has anyone actually confirmed that the council action is liquidation rather than administration? I suppose it's false hope but regardless, I'd like confirmation if anyone has it.

Quite simply, a CVA is the only way the club will be retained in it's current form of which I love so much. I'm not sure I'd be able to get into a new Livi in the same way I am with the current version so that's what I'm hoping for. I realise that this will piss off a lot of people who are owed money but I think if we were actually given the chance to run the club under responsible ownership that the small creditors could get their full money paid back in the long term (i.e small businesses and staff) through any profits the club from then on.

It's what I'd like to happen anyway, if the trust or McDougall gets the chance to take over. I realise it probably won't happen though.

The thing is, this has been the Livvy story for 14 years. Fresh start after fresh start after fresh start and we promise next time to pay everybody. It never ever transpires. It always spends money it doesn't have.

I had started a topic about 4 months ago concerning the likelihood of Livvy trying to shaft creditors again. It wasn't given a great deal of credibility, yet here we are.

Your priority is "I want the club to carry on as it is (God knows why, it is the most unethical outfit in Britain) and anyone we owe money to can in essence, bugger off". That has always been the prevailing view at Almondvale, and yet you say "next time we'll be good" when you know full well that when it happens again, you'd happily see creditors get nowt to keep your team going. Livingston have had all the fresh starts they deserve. Now no doubt there will be someone with a few quid and questionable ethics ready to step in and take control. That's great. The thing that isn't so great is that they will do everything in their power to shaft people and organisations that are owed money. It really does have to end. I remain utterly convinced that another "fresh start" is just a way of allowing it to continue.

The sort of people wanting control of your club are the kind of people who are perfectly happy not paying what they owe. If they are happy to operate like that today, then they will be happy to operate like that tomorrow and the day after that. Livingston in it's current format (the one you love so much) is the core of the problem.

[pozbaird]

I haven't checked back since page 145 of this thread. What's the upshot? Where are we? Are Livingston stumbling from Saturday's 'crisis talks' to the next 'crisis talks' via 'last ditch meetings' and 'final deadlines'. Throw in a few 'new consortium expressing an interest' stories, and yet more 'final' deadlines passing, and before you can say "It's just like Gretna all over again" we'll be heading towards Christmas with the whole saga still stumbling on.

Not trying to polish my dancing shoes for Livvy's demise, but if this was a normal business, they wouldn't get the opportunity to set 'final deadlines' and organise 'interested consortiums', they'd be shut down.

As an aside for any Livvy fans in the know - what on earth goes on at West Lothian Council, when the rent owed to them from Almondvale gets to (let's say) £30,000.....then it reaches £60,000....then £100,000...ad infinitum.

At what point should alarm bells have been ringing? Just exactly how did they think they'd ever see any of that rent money as the £200,000 mark was reached, then £250,000?

Fcuking nuts.

[KingfaetheSooth]

1. OK - So although it was against many fans wishes, that club is OK by you and your ilk. Seems completely at odds to every other argument you make on this board/thread.

2. So there is a time bar on what is considered a "real club" then?

3. This is the crux of why people love a good sneer at Gretna and Livingston, they displaced their teams. Dundee for example would probably not be in the position they are at the moment if it weren't for Gretna, Livi and ICT. All new boys garner a certain amount of contempt as they replace the old guard. You can't see the other fans sneering at AFC Wimblemadeup as you're in that bubble.

4. The fans of Meadowbank and Clydebank numbered in their tens at their demise. Don't let them attempt to pull the wool over your eyes. They were walking dead. Is having a crowd of 10 men and a dog, watching third division tripe for eternity, salvation? The fans at both clubs voted with their feet. Fact.

5. You were interested but decided to make a "give me facts and I'll give you money" gesture. Pretty fucking low.

6. Exactly. If AFC Wimbeshit can claim their history based on their community - so can we. You cannot argue otherwise. For the record, Mr Ballantyne allowed Clydebank to exist as an entity by giving them their copyrighted identity back. We bought their league position. Apparently all is well in Bankie land. Everyones a winner. Not that they'll thank us though.....

7. Untrue. Low. Libelous.

8. Again, you hit the nail on the head. "your club has been torn away from you". QotS must simply be a passing fancy. I see no call for you to post any shite relating to any non SFL club on SFL boards. Hence my request for you to "f**k right off".

9. So, you calling me a Peado in the previous post doesnt constitute an insult. Who loses the argument? I don't think there is an argument anyway. Just me putting you right.

10. I can tell a bore when I see one....

11. Yeah, I was wearing a KKK mask, Nazi saluting and taunting the black policeman. They were far too busy pissing themselves at a grown man with a bottle of Blue WKD to notice.

Selective quoting/numbering and we've been round the block on this already - I'll PM you to save boring everyone else.

[Doink]

Oh Thank God i will never get a PM from idiot Kingfaethesooth the bedsit director of football.

MK DONS LOOKING TO THE FUTURE - NEXT STOP THE PREMIER LEAGUE - THE RISE CONTINUES!

Edited July 8, 2009 by Doink

[Guest]

I haven't checked back since page 145 of this thread. What's the upshot? Where are we? Are Livingston stumbling from Saturday's 'crisis talks' to the next 'crisis talks' via 'last ditch meetings' and 'final deadlines'. Throw in a few 'new consortium expressing an interest' stories, and yet more 'final' deadlines passing, and before you can say "It's just like Gretna all over again" we'll be heading towards Christmas with the whole saga still stumbling on.

Not trying to polish my dancing shoes for Livvy's demise, but if this was a normal business, they wouldn't get the opportunity to set 'final deadlines' and organise 'interested consortiums', they'd be shut down.

As an aside for any Livvy fans in the know - what on earth goes on at West Lothian Council, when the rent owed to them from Almondvale gets to (let's say) £30,000.....then it reaches £60,000....then £100,000...ad infinitum.

At what point should alarm bells have been ringing? Just exactly how did they think they'd ever see any of that rent money as the £200,000 mark was reached, then £250,000?

Fcuking nuts.

The biggest mistake or "sleight of hand" by the council was allowing the rent to lapse from a year in advance, to a year in arrears. The minute a-n-y-o-n-e gets themselves into the position of providing any service whatsoever to Livingston Football Club prior to payment being made, then they are screwed. This mob from Hunter to Keane to Flynn to Massone know damn well that they can ignore you and run and hide behind company law to make sure they can get the service, but not pay for it.

A council that effectively wrote off £150k the minute they allowed them to pay in arrears really didn't want it all to be explained to Joe Public. They know that they collectively (influenced by one or two key individuals) have thrown public money at a private enterprise with an unbroken record of debt avoidance.

They cannot and must not be seen to be doing it for a second time. I have a real sense that senior football isn't a council priority at all. It may well be the priority for one or two council members who do not really want to be highlighted publically. They probably have their own reasons for wanting it to go on. That could be anything from a free meal and entertainment every second Saturday, to a genuine belief that it is important to keep the club in existance. Knowing councils, and knowing a little of the local politics in years gone by, I know which one I'd be inclined to go for. Jim Devine might well prove to be a role model for others in that part of the world.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Guest

[Tonsilitis]

There is no winding up notice in the Edinburgh Gazette so far. When a winding up petition is put to court, after the court issues whats called first deliverance, the petition has to be advertised in a local newspaper, probably the Scotsman and in the Edinburgh Gazette. The Gazette comes out on a Tuesday and Friday and it has not been in so far.

If the council are going for a winding up I would expect it to be in by this Friday if there solicitors are in any way efficient. I'll watch with interest and report on here.

After advertisment, the court allows 8 days for interested parties to lodge answers. If answers are lodged, a date for a hearing will be set, or the court might just think there is enough evidence of insolvency to make the winding up order there and then. If no answers are lodged, a winding up order will be made, usually within a day or two of the expiry of the 8 days.

The absence of a winding up advert might mean the council has something else in mind, maybe an eviction or maybe an admin order although, as I have previously said, the latter is less likely.

[Guest]

There is no winding up notice in the Edinburgh Gazette so far. When a winding up petition is put to court, after the court issues whats called first deliverance, the petition has to be advertised in a local newspaper, probably the Scotsman and in the Edinburgh Gazette. The Gazette comes out on a Tuesday and Friday and it has not been in so far.

If the council are going for a winding up I would expect it to be in by this Friday if there solicitors are in any way efficient. I'll watch with interest and report on here.

After advertisment, the court allows 8 days for interested parties to lodge answers. If answers are lodged, a date for a hearing will be set, or the court might just think there is enough evidence of insolvency to make the winding up order there and then. If no answers are lodged, a winding up order will be made, usually within a day or two of the expiry of the 8 days.

The absence of a winding up advert might mean the council has something else in mind, maybe an eviction or maybe an admin order although, as I have previously said, the latter is less likely.

I'd like for a moment to go back to the £70k offer. It is vitally important to remember that £50k of this is seen as next year's rent in advance (even although the default rent is supposed to be £150k as the club failed to meet the requirements stipulated by the council that would allow the rent to drop). Rankine's motives are pretty simple (in my opinion). By accepting the payment as rent for the next year, Rankine will have done two things. Firstly, he will have made eviction damn near impossible. Secondly, he will have kept the debt of £260k as a bargaining chip with which to sicken the council, and weaken their resolve to hang on to the stadium. If he got away with it, I'm sure he would try to drag it on and on to the point where he'd want to offer payment of the debt as full and final settlement of stadium purchase.......and negotiate from there.

If it went to plan, he'd be looking to fund a remotely located small beer ground for a million or two, and then sell of Almondvale for a couple of million profit. He would then be gone. It is basically the same plan as Massone's, but with Massone and the council as the soft touch rather than Flynn and the council. He does need to make the council tire of the fight, and be anxious to be rid of the stadium. To do that, he needs to hold one ace, and that ace is the historical debt to the council. It's just another possible scenario...........

[phantoms-livi-lass]

The thing is, this has been the Livvy story for 14 years. Fresh start after fresh start after fresh start and we promise next time to pay everybody. It never ever transpires. It always spends money it doesn't have.

I had started a topic about 4 months ago concerning the likelihood of Livvy trying to shaft creditors again. It wasn't given a great deal of credibility, yet here we are.

Your priority is "I want the club to carry on as it is (God knows why, it is the most unethical outfit in Britain) and anyone we owe money to can in essence, bugger off". That has always been the prevailing view at Almondvale, and yet you say "next time we'll be good" when you know full well that when it happens again, you'd happily see creditors get nowt to keep your team going. Livingston have had all the fresh starts they deserve. Now no doubt there will be someone with a few quid and questionable ethics ready to step in and take control. That's great. The thing that isn't so great is that they will do everything in their power to shaft people and organisations that are owed money. It really does have to end. I remain utterly convinced that another "fresh start" is just a way of allowing it to continue.

The sort of people wanting control of your club are the kind of people who are perfectly happy not paying what they owe. If they are happy to operate like that today, then they will be happy to operate like that tomorrow and the day after that. Livingston in it's current format (the one you love so much) is the core of the problem.

I have to say that I totally agree with this post.

[EdinburghLivi]

There is no winding up notice in the Edinburgh Gazette so far. When a winding up petition is put to court, after the court issues whats called first deliverance, the petition has to be advertised in a local newspaper, probably the Scotsman and in the Edinburgh Gazette. The Gazette comes out on a Tuesday and Friday and it has not been in so far.

If the council are going for a winding up I would expect it to be in by this Friday if there solicitors are in any way efficient. I'll watch with interest and report on here.

After advertisment, the court allows 8 days for interested parties to lodge answers. If answers are lodged, a date for a hearing will be set, or the court might just think there is enough evidence of insolvency to make the winding up order there and then. If no answers are lodged, a winding up order will be made, usually within a day or two of the expiry of the 8 days.

The absence of a winding up advert might mean the council has something else in mind, maybe an eviction or maybe an admin order although, as I have previously said, the latter is less likely.

Once again my knowledge of the court system is severely lacking but what are answers? Presumably offers for the club?

[Sergeant Wilson]

There is no winding up notice in the Edinburgh Gazette so far. When a winding up petition is put to court, after the court issues whats called first deliverance, the petition has to be advertised in a local newspaper, probably the Scotsman and in the Edinburgh Gazette. The Gazette comes out on a Tuesday and Friday and it has not been in so far.

If the council are going for a winding up I would expect it to be in by this Friday if there solicitors are in any way efficient. I'll watch with interest and report on here.

After advertisment, the court allows 8 days for interested parties to lodge answers. If answers are lodged, a date for a hearing will be set, or the court might just think there is enough evidence of insolvency to make the winding up order there and then. If no answers are lodged, a winding up order will be made, usually within a day or two of the expiry of the 8 days.

The absence of a winding up advert might mean the council has something else in mind, maybe an eviction or maybe an admin order although, as I have previously said, the latter is less likely.

I never thought of that, the council will evict individuals or businesses who default on rent, but I never heard of a council taking any other action. Would it depend on the type of agreement you have with the landlord? What might the chances be of them being kicked out the ground and being allowed to groundshare? Who would take them in the circumstances? East Fife, Dumbarton, Morton, Stenny Rankine has a tentacle in every pie.

[AND180Y]

I never thought of that, the council will evict individuals or businesses who default on rent, but I never heard of a council taking any other action. Would it depend on the type of agreement you have with the landlord? What might the chances be of them being kicked out the ground and being allowed to groundshare? Who would take them in the circumstances? East Fife, Dumbarton, Morton, Stenny Rankine has a tentacle in every pie.

WLC has been making a few individuals bankrupt of late. It makes the notion that Livi have been allowed to rack up two years of rent debts all the more deplorable.