Livingston - all the threads merged

[Wee Bully]

Administration means a ten point deduction and almost certain relegation.

No, it doesn't. Why do people keep peddling this myth.

[Homer Thompson]

Why should the council accept a reduced payment on what is, in essence, public money? They are morally bound to push for every single penny back.

I never said they should

Massone is merely the figurehead at this given moment in time, and a very easy target for reactionary fans' ire. Livingston's woes are the result of years of mismanagement, yet rumours, false accusations and flat out lies about parking fines and so forth.

Administration means a ten point deduction and almost certain relegation. Gretna were not relegated to the third because they went into administration, it was because they could not give evidence that they were capable of sustaining the club for the entire season.

Seems to me Livingston cannot possibly make those assurances either.

Didnt someone else say it was because of the stadium? I guess none of us really know. Looks like none of us know for sure what will happen to livvy if the do go into admin.

Given the clubs history, entering admin must surely, this time, come with some sort of footballing penalty?

[Glasgow Loon]

Administration means a ten point deduction and almost certain relegation.

The SFL have nothing written down about a 10pt penalty for going into administration.

If a club goes into administration then the SFL will convine a meeting and discuss what the said punishment will be.

[Truthhurts]

I have two questions for Livingston fans.

1. What happened to the £125,000 they received from Dundee for a recent transfer? Who got their hands on the money? Is it still available to the club?

2. What happened to the guy that won the lottery? Did he not put all his winnings into the club? Is he still on the Board of Directors? If not, does anyone know him and does he still follow the club?

Thanks.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

I have two questions for Livingston fans.

1. What happened to the £125,000 they received from Dundee for a recent transfer? Who got their hands on the money? Is it still available to the club?

2. What happened to the guy that won the lottery? Did he not put all his winnings into the club? Is he still on the Board of Directors? If not, does anyone know him and does he still follow the club?

Thanks.

1. Allegedly, £65K or so went to the Inland Revenue, the rest went to pay outstanding player (not sure about backroom) staff salaries.

2. Think his name was John McGuinness. He lost his £4million (i think) investment when Livi went into administration last time round. I'm sure he was either declared bankrupt or is at least extremely skint. Don't think he has any involvement at Livi at all now.

I'm not sure Administration is a feasible option now. Tonsilitis is the man in the know, but i'm sure i read somewhere that a club is only likely to go into Administration if it has some assets that can be sold to distribute amongst creditors, or that cash flow can be restrained to the extent that some sort of payment plan is workable. If not, then it's Liquidation.

Given that Livi's only assets were the two players sold to Saints for sweeties and Leigh Griffiths (money for that now gone), they don't own the stadium, i'd say they were pretty well screwed.

Their only real hope is that WLC cave in, which will buy them some time, plus they have apparently negotiated a repayment plan with the inland revenue.

This only leaves:

The Power Company

The Police

Hegarty

Robertson

Any other unpaid staff

Landi (was he paid what he was owed?)

And god knows who else.

Again Tonsilitis will know this better than any of us, but surely any IP would just liquidate them, as there is no obvious way to continue sustaining these debts.

IMO the fans that do give a shit (there don't appear to be enough of them) should look to fundraising with a view to starting a community, fan-run club at non league level. Perhaps money could be put into Livington Thistle Juniors, with a view to eventually establishing them as a Senior club.

As i've said before, for the real fans that want to put in the effort, i say good luck with whatever form of club you eventually end up with. To the arseholes who are only interested in backbiting, sitting on their hands waiting on a rich investor/idiot, and most especially to those c***s who were singing "Dundee till July" and waving tenners at us after that game in 2005, i'd like to say a truly epic "Ha Ha f**k You, and goodbye".

Edited July 7, 2009 by jupe1407

[speckled tangerine]

1. What happened to the £125,000 they received from Dundee for a recent transfer? Who got their hands on the money? Is it still available to the club?

2. What happened to the guy that won the lottery? Did he not put all his winnings into the club? Is he still on the Board of Directors? If not, does anyone know him and does he still follow the club?

Thanks.

Your guess is as good as mine as far as the Leigh Griffiths cash is concerned. But as far as the lottery winner goes, John McGuinness is yet another hapless victim of the Livingston affair.

He was a patsy of the Dominic Keane era and lost a fortune when the club went into administration in 2004.

Apparently, he went totally bankrupt in 2007 and lost his house, due to the livvy thing and various other "bad investments".

He's now a crofter in Dornach, probably......

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Your guess is as good as mine as far as the Leigh Griffiths cash is concerned. But as far as the lottery winner goes, John McGuinness is yet another hapless victim of the Livingston affair.

He was a patsy of the Dominic Keane era and lost a fortune when the club went into administration in 2004.

Apparently, he went totally bankrupt in 2007 and lost his house, due to the livvy thing and various other "bad investments".

He's now a crofter in Dornach, probably......

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/scottish-...78057-20388647/

Poor/Stupid* c**t. Delete as applicable.

[Guest Travelling Man]

Why should the council accept a reduced payment on what is, in essence, public money? They are morally bound to push for every single penny back.

Massone is merely the figurehead at this given moment in time, and a very easy target for reactionary fans' ire. Livingston's woes are the result of years of mismanagement, yet rumours, false accusations and flat out lies about parking fines and so forth.

Administration means a ten point deduction and almost certain relegation. Gretna were not relegated to the third because they went into administration, it was because they could not give evidence that they were capable of sustaining the club for the entire season.

Seems to me Livingston cannot possibly make those assurances either.

Airdrie were kicked out of the League, don't forget, and it was another year before the "new" Airdrie got back in. And if the club goes into administration or liquidation it will lose all its players anyway: they become assets that the administrator will try to sell. Don't kid yourselves - administration is the hard option, not the soft one. Anyone trying to sell that course of action toi you as the sensible one is pulling wool over your eyes.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Airdrie were kicked out of the League, don't forget, and it was another year before the "new" Airdrie got back in. And if the club goes into administration or liquidation it will lose all its players anyway: they become assets that the administrator will try to sell. Don't kid yourselves - administration is the hard option, not the soft one. Anyone trying to sell that course of action toi you as the sensible one is pulling wool over your eyes.

It might be the hard option, but it's still a better one that allowing a shady group of "ex football chairman" headed up by a liar who claims he saved Airdrie, to come in and make a c**t of things.

Would you put any faith in the business acumen of a man who comes to a public meeting, without having seen the books, and says he'll pay Massone back 50% of what he's due, without even checking it out? Again, why would Livi fans trust a guy who's been absolutely derided by at least another two clubs supporters?

[unthinkable]

Airdrie were kicked out of the League, don't forget, and it was another year before the "new" Airdrie got back in. And if the club goes into administration or liquidation it will lose all its players anyway: they become assets that the administrator will try to sell. Don't kid yourselves - administration is the hard option, not the soft one. Anyone trying to sell that course of action toi you as the sensible one is pulling wool over your eyes.

Airdrie United took over the Bankies the same summer that Airdrieonians went bust, Airdrie played 1st divison, went bust then played following season as Airdrie United in Division 2 after stealing Clydebank.

[Guest penelope pitstop]

The council has to be the key to this whole deal. If the council are realistic about what they get and over what period of time then the other creditors will fall in line. They would all - fairly obviously - rather have some money than no money and it will be a foolish council that feels otherwise.

And on another point, aren't you all still getting hung up on Massone? As I understand what he has said, and what any new investors would insist on, he is history.

It's difficult to follow the logic of many of the posts on this forum. Don't you guys want to retain First Division football, in fact SFL football at all? For make no mistake administration now means being kicked out of the SFL and taking a chance on readmission into the Third Division. Maybe that would work out and maybe not. Heavy price to pay for being too cynical about people's motives and backing wrong horses.

I think the Council are being realistic. At the moment they have a club with a lease of ground that is far to big for them. If they press matters all the way they will be able to end the lease and the ground will be back with them - they can sell bits off, relet just the stadium and get rid of the disater that is Massone without having to take on Rankine instead which is a rock and a hard place decision.

You are however very happy to peddle untruths to promote Rankine eg

1. Massone is history - no he isn't it was clear at the meeting that he was not going and intended to stick around for his money

2. Administration means means being kicked out of the SFL - that is a lie - pure and simple. The SFL retains a considerable degree of discretion as to what to do with a club that goes into administration. There is certainly a likely relegation or points deduction but to say it means being kicked out is simply to spread panic (and try and push people towards Rankine and Massone). Which leads me again to the question are you Mr Rankine? You have appeared on here suddenly just after he got involved and are happy to lie and misrepresent the position to get people on his side.

What is your angle?

Edited July 7, 2009 by penelope pitstop

[Ivo den Bieman]

Airdrie were kicked out of the League, don't forget, and it was another year before the "new" Airdrie got back in. And if the club goes into administration or liquidation it will lose all its players anyway: they become assets that the administrator will try to sell. Don't kid yourselves - administration is the hard option, not the soft one. Anyone trying to sell that course of action toi you as the sensible one is pulling wool over your eyes.

as well as being factually incorrect, with regard to the death of Airdrieonians/Clydebank/Airdrie United, your post overlooks the fact that it is precisely by avoiding the "hard option" throughout their existence that LFC keep finding themselves in this position, time after time.

administration isn't hard- living within your means and paying local authorities, businessmen and tradesmen what they are due in reasonable time, is.

Only Livingston can put themselves in administration which they show no sign of doing- the council action means liquidation if it is allowed to run its course without full payment of the £280k. I can only agree with other posters that any serious "investor" with money behind them would have paid up by now.

[Guest]

Airdrie were kicked out of the League, don't forget, and it was another year before the "new" Airdrie got back in. And if the club goes into administration or liquidation it will lose all its players anyway: they become assets that the administrator will try to sell. Don't kid yourselves - administration is the hard option, not the soft one. Anyone trying to sell that course of action toi you as the sensible one is pulling wool over your eyes.

You are forgetting this club was there before just five years ago. Are you saying that what they went through (retained their SPL status, and got out of something like £7 million pounds worth of debt) was a harder option than repaying their debt? If you do, then you are talking nonsense.

Livingston do not have saleable players as assets..........everything they have is on the debit side of the ledger. Administration will lift any contractual obligations from their shoulders (as if honouring contracts has been a hundrance in the past).

I'm afraid this is a club that now deserves to pay the price for what it has done. This is not yer average down on its luck back street business. this is a football club with plenty of "previous".

It has an owner who is a pathological liar (a DNA pre-requisite it seems). It is now a flame to a very specific breed of moth. It's certainly not the type of people that I'd want anywhere near my club, and it is NOT a series of unfortunate events that has brought it to this point.

Livingston FC has had many chances to get it right, but has repeatedly opted for the ones which lack integrity. Why do you think there is absolutely no sympathy for this club? It isn't their location, the colour of their strip or their reilgious leanings? It is because they have had a supremely negative impact on their peers and the business world in general. For every pound that Livvy has squirmed out of paying, someone else has lost that pound. Someone with no access to the sports pages of the newspapers. Someone who's sob story is never heard.

WLC have finally mustered the balls to do the right thing. If the club fold, regardless of what people think, if the folks of the town really want it, they'll create themselves a club worthy of their time and effort.

The whole pack of cards that is Livingston FC is in danger of collapsing. For the good of the game, it might be no bad thing if it does.

Your sudden appearance on the scene promoting mis-truths over what has happened previously, and the penalties for administration seems to be a remarkable piece of orchestrated scaremongering. It is blindingly obvious what it is you are seeking to promote. I'd suggest LiviLions Forum might be a more apt venue. You'll get a more sympathetic hearing there, but times have moved on, and even there, a significant number have woken up to the new reality.

That you somehow thought that this forum was populated by Livvy supporters gives no little insight as to the seed you were trying to sow. This is the wrong place to sow it.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Guest

[Tonsilitis]

as well as being factually incorrect, with regard to the death of Airdrieonians/Clydebank/Airdrie United, your post overlooks the fact that it is precisely by avoiding the "hard option" throughout their existence that LFC keep finding themselves in this position, time after time.

administration isn't hard- living within your means and paying local authorities, businessmen and tradesmen what they are due in reasonable time, is.

Only Livingston can put themselves in administration which they show no sign of doing- the council action means liquidation if it is allowed to run its course without full payment of the £280k. I can only agree with other posters that any serious "investor" with money behind them would have paid up by now.

Not strictly true by the letter of the law but true in every practical sense. Creditors put companies into liquidation. Companies put themselves into Admin if there is something to be saved.

Mr Massone hanging about for his money is a total lost cause if any form of insolvency happens. I have no idea what he thought he was about when he took over Livi! Does anyone know if he is really a lawyer? Has that been checked out? He certainly does not seem to have the sense to be one unless there is some clever stroke still to come that we don't know about.

Hugh Scott got his money out of Morton but only because he would not let administration happen unless he did and he held the fans/DDFR to ransom. I wonder if Livi have the same option i.e. a multi millionaire fan who will bail them out? Doubt it!

[Pesadilla]

1. I've already explained my viewpoint on the merger of the Dumfries clubs and ICT - I'm well aware of the bitterness from some ex-Caley fans - I have a lot of sympathy for them - there have been a couple of threads on P&B on this subject in the past.

2. There is unlikely to be any living fans of the two Dumfries clubs who merged in 1919 - perhaps there was some ill feeling at the time - who knows?

3. New clubs are formed all the time - why should the formation of new clubs like AFCW and FCUM affect other clubs. Both clubs started at the bottom of the pyramid for their respective support and didn't put any clubs out of any leagues.

4. These clubs profited at the expense of other clubs - what about the fans of Meadowbank and Clydebank - they didn't have any say in what happened to their clubs. The Scottish game is indeed "on it's arse" - perhaps if the supporters were at the forefront of the thinking of the football blazers - that just might change.

5. No, I was genuinely interested in how many people had signed up - and they have my full support. They have run a vibrant campaign - long may it continue. I was given details of the numbers via PM - and agreed not to reveal the numbers.

6. No - Airdrie United like AFC Wimbledon are both new clubs - the fans that watch both of them mainly supported the old clubs though - they were there to watch those trophies being won for their local community. The difference is that Airdrie United killed off Clydebank as a senior club whereas AFC Wimbledon were formed as a last resort.

7. I can understand why Airdrie united fans worship their Chairman right enough - and that's whether or not he was a past member of Section B.

8. Nope - I fully admit that my views are coloured by having my football club torn away from me - and I do indeed bang on about it more than some people like or can take

9. When you resort to insults, you have lost the argument - and you are well wide of the mark too FWIW.

10. Fair enough, you don't even know me though. Don't assume you can tell what people are like from their posts on a football forum though.

11. Outside a ground - drinking a bottle of WKD? Were you wearing a KKK mask at the time?

1. OK - So although it was against many fans wishes, that club is OK by you and your ilk. Seems completely at odds to every other argument you make on this board/thread.

2. So there is a time bar on what is considered a "real club" then?

3. This is the crux of why people love a good sneer at Gretna and Livingston, they displaced their teams. Dundee for example would probably not be in the position they are at the moment if it weren't for Gretna, Livi and ICT. All new boys garner a certain amount of contempt as they replace the old guard. You can't see the other fans sneering at AFC Wimblemadeup as you're in that bubble.

4. The fans of Meadowbank and Clydebank numbered in their tens at their demise. Don't let them attempt to pull the wool over your eyes. They were walking dead. Is having a crowd of 10 men and a dog, watching third division tripe for eternity, salvation? The fans at both clubs voted with their feet. Fact.

5. You were interested but decided to make a "give me facts and I'll give you money" gesture. Pretty fucking low.

6. Exactly. If AFC Wimbeshit can claim their history based on their community - so can we. You cannot argue otherwise. For the record, Mr Ballantyne allowed Clydebank to exist as an entity by giving them their copyrighted identity back. We bought their league position. Apparently all is well in Bankie land. Everyones a winner. Not that they'll thank us though.....

7. Untrue. Low. Libelous.

8. Again, you hit the nail on the head. "your club has been torn away from you". QotS must simply be a passing fancy. I see no call for you to post any shite relating to any non SFL club on SFL boards. Hence my request for you to "f**k right off".

9. So, you calling me a Peado in the previous post doesnt constitute an insult. Who loses the argument? I don't think there is an argument anyway. Just me putting you right.

10. I can tell a bore when I see one....

11. Yeah, I was wearing a KKK mask, Nazi saluting and taunting the black policeman. They were far too busy pissing themselves at a grown man with a bottle of Blue WKD to notice.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Airdrie were kicked out of the League, don't forget, and it was another year before the "new" Airdrie got back in. And if the club goes into administration or liquidation it will lose all its players anyway: they become assets that the administrator will try to sell. Don't kid yourselves - administration is the hard option, not the soft one. Anyone trying to sell that course of action toi you as the sensible one is pulling wool over your eyes.

Given that you seem to be on less than nodding terms with the facts, I trust this will be your last post on the matter.

Goodnight.

[Livi]

Maybe you should give it a rest ?

.

I will, when you stopp peddling this p!sh

[MCL]

I will, when you stopp peddling this p!sh

Looks like you've been on the sauce. Are you Massone in disguise ??

[EdinburghLivi]

I'll admit I'm still in denial that there is a possibility that I could be without a club in a week's time.

Has anyone actually confirmed that the council action is liquidation rather than administration? I suppose it's false hope but regardless, I'd like confirmation if anyone has it.

Quite simply, a CVA is the only way the club will be retained in it's current form of which I love so much. I'm not sure I'd be able to get into a new Livi in the same way I am with the current version so that's what I'm hoping for. I realise that this will piss off a lot of people who are owed money but I think if we were actually given the chance to run the club under responsible ownership that the small creditors could get their full money paid back in the long term (i.e small businesses and staff) through any profits the club from then on.

It's what I'd like to happen anyway, if the trust or McDougall gets the chance to take over. I realise it probably won't happen though.

[Livi]

Looks like you've been on the sauce. Are you Massone in disguise ??

I have certainly not won a contract to be his PR man on these boards