Livingston - all the threads merged

[Sergeant Wilson]

Strong, Strong words but no explanation! I really dont think you should be saying such things without explaining or presenting evidence to back up what your saying!

Not sure what Mr Rankines motives are, he comes across quite a quiet and secritive person. I however must say that He left Dumbarton in better condition than when he arrived at the club. Was this mainly down to soaring property prices (at the time) and a bit of luck? That is the positive side of Mr Rankine, the negative has to be the alledged proxy and highly contrivertial shareholding at East Fife. The Scotsman (credible newspaper in my view) ran a big story a number of years ago about some child holding significant sharholding in East Fife believed to be on Mr Rankines behalf?

Not sure what his Livvy motive is, likely ££££ signs related but what have Livvy got to loose? What did Neil say this afternoon?

I fully sympathise with Livvys current situation despite always having a bee in my bonnet about the old Meadowbank Thistle situation. I would however say that the supporters club members walking out on the meeting does nothing for there credibility and just makes the situation look even more pathetic. Heckling the speakers etc would surely have been a stronger message to the idiot owner.

One of my earlier posts on the subject.

"Gemmell was recruited by Rankin on Barrs behalf. They thought no-one would notice the obvious connections. You could have spat peas through Andy Gemmels cover story. Gemmell, latterly, was hung out to dry when Barr stopped funding the scheme. Supporters had to pay for buses to away games in Dingwall and Inverness to make sure the team got there. He is simply Rankins bag man."

Gemmell denied any involvement with Rankine, and professed no loyalty to Barr. He just thought he could help save the club. (Makes you feel all fuzzy, doesn't it.). Anyway Barr realised that he was not going to be successful as supporters pressure on the council and the goodwill of the council leader Jim McCabe ensured the whole sorry gang were run out of town. They left in such a hurry they left Andy at Airdrie for the last few weeks of the 2002 season. The SFL forced Barr to continue paying players wages via his stadium company to ensure we finished the season. They was no money for luxuries like buses to away games, we paid them.

As previously stated by myself and other posters. Rankine denied involvement in any deals at Airdrie at the time. Now he says he was. He cannot have it both ways. Therefore he is........A FUCKING LIAR.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Sergeant Wilson

[Guest]

Rankine has no involvement in DFC

Can we not just get this Livi saga over and done with.If it was a horse they would have shot it by this time.

the club is in the football equivelant of paliative care

Put it out its misery

I'll try to summarize. Income will drop by anything between 10% and 20% (in real terms). lets say it all rounds off to £60k a month to be generous.

Paying rent and HMRC normal payments will account for around £20k a month.

Paying rent arrears and HMRC arrears will account for £25k a month.

Paying electricity will cost £3k a month

Paying electricity arrears will cost £3k a month

Paying salaries will cost £25k(?) a month

Paying Security, police, yada yada yada £5k(?) a month

paying Massone's upkeep £5k a month.

I make that a club losing £26k a month, and that is bare bones.

If revenue doesn't make £60k a month, then it is even worse. As my good friend Mr Administrator said to me "No-one who does their homework properly would touch it. The first job any administrator would do is to ensure prior to appointment that there is something to administrate, and that assets offer security of settlement for the administrator. Anyone would think thrice before touching it"

If it went to administration, then the footballing penalties would follow, and hopefully they would sting.

My club, your club, any club, it matters not. Pissing on creditors the way Livvy have for 14 years simply has to stop, and until someone (the law or the footballing governing body) takes punitive action, this mob will carry on regardless.

[the_russian]

You guys are in serious danger of having no football club at all to complain about and I think you're missing some big points in all this.

I know some of the background to Rankine's involvement at East Fife, and although it was/is controversial there is no doubt that he effectively saved the club from bankruptcy some years ago. I think he has done the same at some other clubs. Why? Don't ask me; we should just be glad that there are still some people around willing to put their own money (for that's what it is) into football.

You criticise him for sitting beside Massone at today's meeting but how on earth could he or anyone get near to the truth about the club's financial position except by asking Massone and then talking and negotiating with him. Sources close to Rankine tell me that's exactly what he did and that the figure of £1.35m that is being quoted is the absolute minimum figure for the club's debts. It could be higher as more bills and more creditors come out of the woodwork.

Taking over Livi is not something anyone would do for commercial reasons. There seems to be no business case for doing so - or the club would be in someone's safe hands by now. I don't know why Neil Rankine would want to get involved but it certainly can't be to make money, and it seems clear from all that's been said and that I've read that expensive stadium ownership - with a perfectly correct long term obligation to use it for football purposes - is the last thing that he would want.

Give the man credit - he's at least trying to keep the club afloat in the First Division when administration or insolvency would mean being kicked out of the League and having to apply for readmission. Maybe that's what McDougall, who I understand didn't attend the meeting today, is waiting and hoping for.

Those with an interest in keeping a League club at Livingston, which must include the supporters and the Council, seem to me to have a fairly stark choice - pull together or sink together. Massone seems to be more or less history as soon as he gets some kind of payoff and if the proposal for a community-based club with supporter and community reps in the Board is to go ahead you need to get heads out of sand. There aren't many shows in town so my advice is to give the proposals now on the table a fair chance. They may not work out, but what alternatives are there?

Finally, from what I've seen at East Fife and heard elsewhere, Rankine is a terrier and very streetwise. Now that he's involved he isn't likely to give up easily or go away in the huff. Get used to him; probably around for some time to come!

Why would Rankine be so keen to help out all these clubs that he doesn't even support? His majority shareholding at East Fife, though public knowledge, is still something that he won't go public over and as far as I know he's never been to an East Fife game to support us.

Also, when did he save East Fife from bankrupcy? Any shares he bought would have went to the sellers and not the club surely?

[Doctor Chist]

How many attended the meeting?

Between 100 and 115 according to the Livilions website. if that's the level of support that they muster during a time of crisis they've got absolutely no chance of survival.

[ayrmad]

Between 100 and 115 according to the Livilions website. if that's the level of support that they muster during a time of crisis they've got absolutely no chance of survival.

Disappointing turnout,sadly apathy can affect anyone or any group.

[Tryfield]

Get this farce over with.

I don't like to see any team going bust, but this is ripping the pish out of the authorities.

[Tonsilitis]

I'll try to summarize. Income will drop by anything between 10% and 20% (in real terms). lets say it all rounds off to £60k a month to be generous.

Paying rent and HMRC normal payments will account for around £20k a month.

Paying rent arrears and HMRC arrears will account for £25k a month.

Paying electricity will cost £3k a month

Paying electricity arrears will cost £3k a month

Paying salaries will cost £25k(?) a month

Paying Security, police, yada yada yada £5k(?) a month

paying Massone's upkeep £5k a month.

I make that a club losing £26k a month, and that is bare bones.

If revenue doesn't make £60k a month, then it is even worse. As my good friend Mr Administrator said to me "No-one who does their homework properly would touch it. The first job any administrator would do is to ensure prior to appointment that there is something to administrate, and that assets offer security of settlement for the administrator. Anyone would think thrice before touching it"

If it went to administration, then the footballing penalties would follow, and hopefully they would sting.

My club, your club, any club, it matters not. Pissing on creditors the way Livvy have for 14 years simply has to stop, and until someone (the law or the footballing governing body) takes punitive action, this mob will carry on regardless.

Normally in a situation like this, someone underwrites the administrator. In this case it is hard to see who that might be and therefore any administrator is bound to look at what assets the clubs has to fund his fees. The answer to that appears to be zilch, nada, F All, nothing. A council funded liquidation looks most likely!

[Livi]

I thought it was a pretty positive meeting with Angela Constance MSP speaking up about saving the club for the community.

I'm not sure if the "Trust" heard that bit as they asked a couple of questions and then walked out in an obviously pre-planned act. It was pretty childish and if that's the extent of their "work with anyone to save the club" then they should be quite rightly left out in the cold.

The main point Rankin was trying to get over was that Massone will need paid to leave the club but he is down the list of creditors. The Revenue and WLC are the ones who are forcing the issue so they should be dealt with first. Massone won't force administration so he will need to be around for a while until a spare £250,000 can be found to pay him off.

Fans who are lawyers, accountants, etc who are willing to work for nothing to save the club should come forward to be part of the initial group. Directors shouldn't be taking money out of the club, no more flashy hotels or cars, etc. Volunteers to work for the club as much as possible to reduce costs and create a new business model.

The stadium is a white elephant built for the SPL and hardly used. The council should maintain the stadium as they have groundsmen, painters, etc on their payroll already. They also need office space and meeting rooms so Almondvale could be theirs for that use and Livi only need to rent the pitch and dressing rooms when required. The stadium costs £300,000 a year to maintain which is too much for a 1st division team.

Did I mention the "Trust" walked out half way through ??

Just to dampen you theory

I am not a member of the Trust neither was I part of any pre planned discussion on walking out either. I choose to walk out after listening to Massone's p!sh that he keep peddling. We are in a worse postion now than we were 12 months ago having sold 4 players & his alledged £500k investment.

He started to get annoyed as I echoed what Rankine had said earlier & asked if he was going to stand aside as local businesses or fans do not want to do business with him. Its also clear the Coouncil don't want to do business with hime either. He then started his usual raised voice, pointing of fingers & launching into blaming others for "his project" failing - what a crock of sh!te.

Yet again more peddling of sh!te MCL ?

Edited July 5, 2009 by Livi

[southview]

Interesting to see that a number of the LiviLions followers have been taken in to some degree by Mr Rankine who appears to enjoy a mixed reputation to say the least.

I don't believe for one minute that this man is at Livi for the good of his health and he will be in this for a few bob and/or the stadium.

As Duncan says, a couple of legal challenges would put the council on shaky ground regarding their "only for football" criteria and when budgets are being cut, would they really have the stomach/funding for a fight in the courts? I doubt it.

As for Massone, I don't believe he has invested £500k at all. He may have invested sums of cash running into the thousands but nothing like what he is suggesting. If that were the case, players/staff would have been getting paid on time and creditors would have been getting paid.

The question simply for Massone should and still is: Where has this £500k gone? He should be forced to provide evidence/details.

That the taxman is owed a six-figure sum only adds to the problem but doesn't sound the death knell. As I have said before, HMRC have negotiated payment plans with a number of English clubs over the years so I didn't imagine them taking a hardline stance against Livi.

This leaves us with the council. My info is that the council's lawyers would advise them against any plan meaning that Livi pay 2010/11 rent up-front and then pay historic debt back on a monthly basis. It would "maybe" be too easy for Livi not to meet the monthly charges but not feel afraid of being thrown out as they have already paid the 2010/11 rates.

I could be a bit off the path with that one but if Livi want to work with the council, any payment up-front should be to write off some of the £280k already built up and then start negotiating.

To be honest, the council should tell them its £280k or liquidation and I am hating the comments from Rankine/Massone and some of the fans who seem to think THEY are the ones in control in that the council have no choice but to accept their repayment plan as liquidation would maybe see them only receive a fraction of the £280k owed.

By the way, have the trust/livi supporters done any sort of fundraising over the past few weeks or has it been a case of waiting to see what happens as that's what I think it looks like.

Why hasn't there been some sort of "Save Livi" fund created where all sorts of donations through bucket collections/events could be made?

It's not a case of handing it to Massone and bailing him out, but surely it would look good to creditors if a few thousand pounds were in a bank account that could buy time when we really do get down to last orders.

In a nutshell, yesterday's meeting was a case of Rankine/Massone holding out the begging bowl and asking for money and telling the council that they have no choice but to accept their payment plan. I fully expect a continued lack of action from those at the SFL and another easy ride in the media for the cretin that is Massone.

[MCL]

Blah blah blah

Yet again more peddling of sh!te MCL ?

Nope.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Interesting to see that a number of the LiviLions followers have been taken in to some degree by Mr Rankine who appears to enjoy a mixed reputation to say the least.

I don't believe for one minute that this man is at Livi for the good of his health and he will be in this for a few bob and/or the stadium.

As Duncan says, a couple of legal challenges would put the council on shaky ground regarding their "only for football" criteria and when budgets are being cut, would they really have the stomach/funding for a fight in the courts? I doubt it.

As for Massone, I don't believe he has invested £500k at all. He may have invested sums of cash running into the thousands but nothing like what he is suggesting. If that were the case, players/staff would have been getting paid on time and creditors would have been getting paid.

The question simply for Massone should and still is: Where has this £500k gone? He should be forced to provide evidence/details.

That the taxman is owed a six-figure sum only adds to the problem but doesn't sound the death knell. As I have said before, HMRC have negotiated payment plans with a number of English clubs over the years so I didn't imagine them taking a hardline stance against Livi.

This leaves us with the council. My info is that the council's lawyers would advise them against any plan meaning that Livi pay 2010/11 rent up-front and then pay historic debt back on a monthly basis. It would "maybe" be too easy for Livi not to meet the monthly charges but not feel afraid of being thrown out as they have already paid the 2010/11 rates.

I could be a bit off the path with that one but if Livi want to work with the council, any payment up-front should be to write off some of the £280k already built up and then start negotiating.

To be honest, the council should tell them its £280k or liquidation and I am hating the comments from Rankine/Massone and some of the fans who seem to think THEY are the ones in control in that the council have no choice but to accept their repayment plan as liquidation would maybe see them only receive a fraction of the £280k owed.

By the way, have the trust/livi supporters done any sort of fundraising over the past few weeks or has it been a case of waiting to see what happens as that's what I think it looks like.

Why hasn't there been some sort of "Save Livi" fund created where all sorts of donations through bucket collections/events could be made?

It's not a case of handing it to Massone and bailing him out, but surely it would look good to creditors if a few thousand pounds were in a bank account that could buy time when we really do get down to last orders.

In a nutshell, yesterday's meeting was a case of Rankine/Massone holding out the begging bowl and asking for money and telling the council that they have no choice but to accept their payment plan. I fully expect a continued lack of action from those at the SFL and another easy ride in the media for the cretin that is Massone.

Spot fucking on.

Interesting point also re lack of fund raising activity by Trust/Fans on a large scale. One could be forgiven for getting the impression they're still banking on someone with a lot of dosh coming in and saving them the hassle.

My gut feeling now, is that Livi won't see the start of the season. And SFL are going to get fucking crucified for their total lack of action/preparation.

[Mikewn]

One of my earlier posts on the subject.

"Gemmell was recruited by Rankin on Barrs behalf. They thought no-one would notice the obvious connections. You could have spat peas through Andy Gemmels cover story. Gemmell, latterly, was hung out to dry when Barr stopped funding the scheme. Supporters had to pay for buses to away games in Dingwall and Inverness to make sure the team got there. He is simply Rankins bag man."

Gemmell denied any involvement with Rankine, and professed no loyalty to Barr. He just thought he could help save the club. (Makes you feel all fuzzy, doesn't it.). Anyway Barr realised that he was not going to be successful as supporters pressure on the council and the goodwill of the council leader Jim McCabe ensured the whole sorry gang were run out of town. They left in such a hurry they left Andy at Airdrie for the last few weeks of the 2002 season. The SFL forced Barr to continue paying players wages via his stadium company to ensure we finished the season. They was no money for luxuries like buses to away games, we paid them.

As previously stated by myself and other posters. Rankine denied involvement in any deals at Airdrie at the time. Now he says he was. He cannot have it both ways. Therefore he is........A FUCKING LIAR.

Thanks, I can now understand your view. I only came in on page 145 of this thread!!!

[MCL]

So, no change at all then and I suspect little more than hot air will be emitted for the next ten days. That's all the time Livingston have left, before the interim liquidator is appointed and the club dies.

Goodbye Livingston, goodbye Cowdenbeath, hello Livingston Thistle ...

[Guest]

Try this for a simple but compelling scenario.

Massone claims to have put in 500k, and thus inflates the debt to a "known" £1.35 million (plus unkown)

The scenario would assume that he actually hasn't done this at all. The debt is actually £0.85 million (plus unknown).

He will accept £250k in return for 50% of the club...........this would come from outside investors.

He then holds out for £250k from desperate supporters to buy out his other 50%.

He then walks away with £500k and the club is in a worse position than it was a year ago.

He has gained half a million pounds from a combination of a weak willed council and a desperate community in repayment for a debt which actually never existed in the first place.....he himself merely added it to the books.

The whole game plan is a bit like "The Producers". Run the club damn near as incompetently as possible to make £500k seem like a price worth paying to be rid of him.

Beauty in its simplicity and self financing elegance..........you actually get the club and supporters to pay for your flights, accomodation and transportation while you fleece them.

Administration would be no good, as that might well uncover the bogus nature of the £500k he claims to have invested in the club.

Needing an accomplice in the game plan, he might well have to split the cash with said accomplice (I wonder who that could be). Even so, a very tidy sum to pick up, and especially sweet as the mug punters pay your living expenses.

Offering a council a debt repayment plan that was wholly unworkable and geared towards paying next year's stadium rent while previous years went unpaid would make an eviction order difficult to enforce.........after all, they've paid next year in advance.

All of the above would make a nicely positioned contingency plan if the main plan (to get hold of the stadium for buttons and then sell it for profit) falls through.

Wouldn't it make for a fantastic story? You buy a club for a quid, artificially inflate its debt, get the public to wine you, dine you, house you and transport you, and pick up half a million just to go away and give them back their club in a far worse state than you found it.

[Guest]

And isn't 3 months a long time in football.....

This from the West Lothian Courier in April this year:

LIVINGSTON fans have been urged to book their tickets for next season early with the club offering special discount prices for those who buy before the end of the month.

Season tickets for the 2009/10 campaign start at just £95 in the family section, available at last season’s prices or reduced if purchased before April 30.

Students are also big winners with prices for those still in full-time education just £95 for the season.

Pay-at-the-gate prices for next season are to be set at £16 for adults and £7 for concessions (over-65s, under-16s and students).

Club chairman Angelo Massone has urged fans to snap up their tickets now to ensure the playing budget is in place for a renewed attempt to win promotion to the Scottish Premier League.

From May 1 onwards season tickets will be set at a price of £280 for adults and a concession price of £120. Tickets are available for purchase from reception at the Almondvale Stadium between 9am and 4pm on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday; 9am-6pm Wednesday; and from 10am onwards on the club’s next two home matchday’s on Saturday 11 and 18 April.

Massone said: “As the season draws to a close, it gives us time to reflect on what we have achieved since my consortium and I took control of Livingston Football Club last year.

“This season was very much about consolidation on the park after an uncertain 2007/08.

“In a very short space of time, we appointed a new manager and had to build a squad effectively from scratch, after the transfer embargo placed on the club had been lifted.

“The achievements of that team this campaign should not be underestimated.

“We had an extremely strong start to the season, travelled to play Celtic in the Co-operative Insurance Cup and performed to levels well beyond anyone’s expectation during pre-season.

“Our form dipped as 2008 drew to a close, but the appointment of Paul Hegarty and the continued emergence of young talent developed by the club into the first team has given us plenty to cheer about in recent months.

“We have consolidated as planned and now, with the necessary foundations in place throughout the footballing staff and playing squad, we must look to build upon the stability the team now has and look to seriously challenge for the Irn-Bru First Division championship in the coming campaign.

“I truly believe that the rightful place of Livingston Football Club is in the Scottish Premier League. There is vast potential within the club to perform at that level once again.

“This summer is about meeting that potential with the experience needed to win the First Division.

“Everything here is geared towards Premier League level and everybody at the club is determined to approach the new season with the attitude needed to make it a successful year.

“I believe that the 2009/10 season can be a very successful one for Livingston and I am calling on (fans) to share my ambitions and back the club early, so that our playing budget can be competitive enough to challenge for the title.

“Whether you are choosing to renew your ticket, buying your first ever ticket, or if you are looking to buy a ticket after a spell away, everybody at Livingston FC looks forward to seeing you at Almondvale next season as we look to take that step further and return to the Scottish Premier League.”

Edited July 5, 2009 by Guest

[Guest bazza54]

Spot fucking on.

Interesting point also re lack of fund raising activity by Trust/Fans on a large scale. One could be forgiven for getting the impression they're still banking on someone with a lot of dosh coming in and saving them the hassle.

My gut feeling now, is that Livi won't see the start of the season. And SFL are going to get fucking crucified for their total lack of action/preparation.

i agree. sad as this is, i really think the sfl should be giving livingston a date for them to satisfy them that they will be able to fulfill their fixtures next season and have a financial plan in place. imagine how they would look if it went tits up for livi after say 10 games and the first division then becomes a league of 9 teams. what a fu**ing farce that would be. the sfl should be at least making their position clear. if livi go bust who will take their place? will it be airdrie? surely airdrie have made signings for their season in the 2nd division? this whole saga needs to be brought to an end soon for all concerned

[orco]

All your points are taken Duncan. You are now preaching to the converted.

[ObserverFromAfar]

You just cannot keep a man wearing the guise of a saviour down.

Neil Rankine is banging on in the Sun on Monday about how the council needs to be lenient on the outststanding debt owed, being even more flexible about the payment options than they already have been (if they've already bent 360 degrees, how many more degrees does the man want?). Give him time to get the cash and team together to do a deal... oh, he wants the club to be run properly too. Oh, and he believes he can fix it (despite not having seen the full set of books). No mention of banking on administration, but then again no mention of administration not being at the core of his rescue dream. Look like he is, though, prepared to throw £250k at the debt.

Rankine said: "Can I fix this? Probably.

"I have the principles of a deal to save Livi, but that is not going to happen quickly and I can't do it on my own, I need help.

"I spoke to a politician on Saturday and I suggested they call a meeting of all the parties involved. I've got to make more people involved and get all the fans on the same side because there are tensions.

"I'm trying to see any route to take this on. I want to see the club run properly.

"I'd like to get on the board and maybe throw something like quarter of a million pounds at it.

"We all have to get round a table as a united unit, but for a start the council must help. They must take the £70,000 payment we are offering just now and give the club more time."

Big Ang now sounds more desparate, assuming this quote is accurate in the same piece: "I desperately want the club to survive but unless we get more financial backing we will have no option but to place the club in administration. I hope that someone from the council will talk to us."

Get real, Big Ang ... they have been listening to you for months.. listening to your nonsense about paying on time, buying the stadium, everything ok, yada yada yada.....

It's time for Judge, Liquidator, and goodness knows who else (law enforcement officials?) to talk to you and you to talk to them - - - I'm sure they will be very interested in what you have to say, Big Ang.

Edited July 5, 2009 by ObserverFromAfar

[Guest]

You're right Orco. I think I doth protest too much (oh the irony).

Everything is about "getting investors" (which actually means shifting debt around). There still has been absolutely nothing in terms of "living within our means".

Nothing has changed except Rankine wanting a piece of the action. His £70k offer is deliberately geared towards being able to claim that the next year's rent has been paid in advance. It's simply more smoke and mirrors.

He is trying to emotionally blackmail the council.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Guest

[ObserverFromAfar]

i agree. sad as this is, i really think the sfl should be giving livingston a date for them to satisfy them that they will be able to fulfill their fixtures next season and have a financial plan in place. imagine how they would look if it went tits up for livi after say 10 games and the first division then becomes a league of 9 teams. what a fu**ing farce that would be. the sfl should be at least making their position clear. if livi go bust who will take their place? will it be airdrie? surely airdrie have made signings for their season in the 2nd division? this whole saga needs to be brought to an end soon for all concerned

In reality, the SFL are just the the member clubs and Charimen etc of the 30 SFL clubs.

Most, if not all, won't force this too much. It would create too much of a precedent, and given that most clubs are aware of that they could be in a position of difficulty at anytime, they won't want to implement or activate something that could force their clubs to face disastorous penalties.

What would be interesting though would be for the opposition fans to lobby their club's chairmen and directors to do something through their membership of the SFL, and see what response they get and what action happens