Livingston - all the threads merged

[Guest bigyards]

The season tickets were due for renewal at the end of the season, So how did that affect the cash flow when the staff/ players were paid late during the whole season?

How many times over the last 14 years have we heard this constant theme coming out of Livingston?

They are teetering on the brink yet again. Lets have a bit of perspective here. This is a club with a hardcore support of about 900-1000. They own precisely NOTHING. West Lothian Council rent them a ground and from reports here and elsewhere the club does not bother to pay that rent. They are in debt to The Inland Revenue, The Electricity Board and numerous smaller businesses.They have had 14 managers in those 14 years and have been in administration twice I think, from memory. LFC have attracted a rogues gallery of "businessmen with the clubs best interests at heart". The likes of Keane. Flynn and laughably Massone. Each hailed as the new messiah by the ever more deluded supporters.

If the club is really £1.3million in debt then surely it is time to accept that the game is up. The only possible future for your club is part-time football in the lower leagues at best. Accept this and you have a chance of keeping football in Livingston. Believe the hype of any saviour, especially given the track record of those who have gone before and, in 12 months we will be back discussing this again. I wish Livingston success in their battle to survive, but a major reality check is required by their fans, if this is to be realised.

[Guest Travelling Man]

So I'm reading that Rankine said he wouldn't have gotten involved if he knew how bad it was in terms of debt, but now he's here, he'll help out. Did anyone (even for a fleeting second), believe a word of this?

The only way anyone will become involved is if the debt disappears. MacDougall will NOT take on £1.35 million pounds worth of debt. Not a chance. There are absolutely no assets to serve as security.

It all comes back to the stadium and whether or not the council buys the plan, or can themselves be bought (corruption in local government........surely not).

If the council choose to negotiate arrears with someone as bent as Massone, then they better be ready to change policy with every decent rent payer in the district.

As for the MSP who was present..........simply looking for some political mileage for herself..........totally self serving. She cannot go near the public purse, and she damn well knows it.

Even at £1.35mill, I reckon there's more to come.

The equally major disgrace is that any club with a reputation like Livingston's was allowed near any sort of debt raising facilities. Yet here they are talking about paying it back on the never never............again.

Rankine is in this for one thing, and one thing only..........the stadium.

I think there will be some creative accounting going as to who owes how much to who. Expect to see the sums of those involved (Rankine and Massone) seemingly inflated to way above what you'd consider reasonable (or possible). Guess who'd be expected to pay those sums to those individuals? Yep, the club. Who constructs the books down Livingston way? Yep, those will claim six figure sums.

Back in the Keane days, it was pretty common knowledge that there were two sets of books on the go at Livingston. I bet that hasn't changed one little bit.

You guys are in serious danger of having no football club at all to complain about and I think you're missing some big points in all this.

I know some of the background to Rankine's involvement at East Fife, and although it was/is controversial there is no doubt that he effectively saved the club from bankruptcy some years ago. I think he has done the same at some other clubs. Why? Don't ask me; we should just be glad that there are still some people around willing to put their own money (for that's what it is) into football.

You criticise him for sitting beside Massone at today's meeting but how on earth could he or anyone get near to the truth about the club's financial position except by asking Massone and then talking and negotiating with him. Sources close to Rankine tell me that's exactly what he did and that the figure of £1.35m that is being quoted is the absolute minimum figure for the club's debts. It could be higher as more bills and more creditors come out of the woodwork.

Taking over Livi is not something anyone would do for commercial reasons. There seems to be no business case for doing so - or the club would be in someone's safe hands by now. I don't know why Neil Rankine would want to get involved but it certainly can't be to make money, and it seems clear from all that's been said and that I've read that expensive stadium ownership - with a perfectly correct long term obligation to use it for football purposes - is the last thing that he would want.

Give the man credit - he's at least trying to keep the club afloat in the First Division when administration or insolvency would mean being kicked out of the League and having to apply for readmission. Maybe that's what McDougall, who I understand didn't attend the meeting today, is waiting and hoping for.

Those with an interest in keeping a League club at Livingston, which must include the supporters and the Council, seem to me to have a fairly stark choice - pull together or sink together. Massone seems to be more or less history as soon as he gets some kind of payoff and if the proposal for a community-based club with supporter and community reps in the Board is to go ahead you need to get heads out of sand. There aren't many shows in town so my advice is to give the proposals now on the table a fair chance. They may not work out, but what alternatives are there?

Finally, from what I've seen at East Fife and heard elsewhere, Rankine is a terrier and very streetwise. Now that he's involved he isn't likely to give up easily or go away in the huff. Get used to him; probably around for some time to come!

[jimbo]

You guys are in serious danger of having no football club at all to complain about and I think you're missing some big points in all this.

I know some of the background to Rankine's involvement at East Fife, and although it was/is controversial there is no doubt that he effectively saved the club from bankruptcy some years ago. I think he has done the same at some other clubs. Why? Don't ask me; we should just be glad that there are still some people around willing to put their own money (for that's what it is) into football.

You criticise him for sitting beside Massone at today's meeting but how on earth could he or anyone get near to the truth about the club's financial position except by asking Massone and then talking and negotiating with him. Sources close to Rankine tell me that's exactly what he did and that the figure of £1.35m that is being quoted is the absolute minimum figure for the club's debts. It could be higher as more bills and more creditors come out of the woodwork.

Taking over Livi is not something anyone would do for commercial reasons. There seems to be no business case for doing so - or the club would be in someone's safe hands by now. I don't know why Neil Rankine would want to get involved but it certainly can't be to make money, and it seems clear from all that's been said and that I've read that expensive stadium ownership - with a perfectly correct long term obligation to use it for football purposes - is the last thing that he would want.

Give the man credit - he's at least trying to keep the club afloat in the First Division when administration or insolvency would mean being kicked out of the League and having to apply for readmission. Maybe that's what McDougall, who I understand didn't attend the meeting today, is waiting and hoping for.

Those with an interest in keeping a League club at Livingston, which must include the supporters and the Council, seem to me to have a fairly stark choice - pull together or sink together. Massone seems to be more or less history as soon as he gets some kind of payoff and if the proposal for a community-based club with supporter and community reps in the Board is to go ahead you need to get heads out of sand. There aren't many shows in town so my advice is to give the proposals now on the table a fair chance. They may not work out, but what alternatives are there?

Finally, from what I've seen at East Fife and heard elsewhere, Rankine is a terrier and very streetwise. Now that he's involved he isn't likely to give up easily or go away in the huff. Get used to him; probably around for some time to come!

In football parlance all I can say to this is, "Who are ye? Who are ye?"

I've got a wee inkling of who you might be close to mind you.

[Yoss]

You guys are in serious danger of having no football club at all to complain about and I think you're missing some big points in all this.

I know some of the background to Rankine's involvement at East Fife, and although it was/is controversial there is no doubt that he effectively saved the club from bankruptcy some years ago. I think he has done the same at some other clubs. Why? Don't ask me; we should just be glad that there are still some people around willing to put their own money (for that's what it is) into football.

You criticise him for sitting beside Massone at today's meeting but how on earth could he or anyone get near to the truth about the club's financial position except by asking Massone and then talking and negotiating with him. Sources close to Rankine tell me that's exactly what he did and that the figure of £1.35m that is being quoted is the absolute minimum figure for the club's debts. It could be higher as more bills and more creditors come out of the woodwork.

Taking over Livi is not something anyone would do for commercial reasons. There seems to be no business case for doing so - or the club would be in someone's safe hands by now. I don't know why Neil Rankine would want to get involved but it certainly can't be to make money, and it seems clear from all that's been said and that I've read that expensive stadium ownership - with a perfectly correct long term obligation to use it for football purposes - is the last thing that he would want.

Give the man credit - he's at least trying to keep the club afloat in the First Division when administration or insolvency would mean being kicked out of the League and having to apply for readmission. Maybe that's what McDougall, who I understand didn't attend the meeting today, is waiting and hoping for.

Those with an interest in keeping a League club at Livingston, which must include the supporters and the Council, seem to me to have a fairly stark choice - pull together or sink together. Massone seems to be more or less history as soon as he gets some kind of payoff and if the proposal for a community-based club with supporter and community reps in the Board is to go ahead you need to get heads out of sand. There aren't many shows in town so my advice is to give the proposals now on the table a fair chance. They may not work out, but what alternatives are there?

Finally, from what I've seen at East Fife and heard elsewhere, Rankine is a terrier and very streetwise. Now that he's involved he isn't likely to give up easily or go away in the huff. Get used to him; probably around for some time to come!

But Massone is still there and still apparently refusing to accept reality - "pulling together" behind such an incompetent regime is just throwing good money after bad. The money that the Trust could put up now, and the money from maybe a few hundred more season ticket sales, it's going to make much of a dent in the current debt, what's the point of people doing that when those running the club don't even show any sign of reducing expenditure to the extent of stopping the debts from piling up further?

If they were really serious about living within the club's means then why haven't they gone down Clyde's route of being ruthless with the playing staff budget? Is yet a further reduction from the council and wellwishers working for nothing really their best plan to reduce costs? Is Massone's flat and car still ebing billed to the club? Is he still taking a wage?

Some of these questions may have been asked and asnwered to peoples' satisfaction at the meeting, obviously I'm fronting on nothing because I wasn't there. But the only reports that have been forthcoming so far suggest pity and charity are there main schemes to reduce costs. Unless and until there are are signs that the mettle is being properly grasped I wouldn't recommend anyone pulls together behind the current owners.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

You guys are in serious danger of having no football club at all to complain about and I think you're missing some big points in all this.

I know some of the background to Rankine's involvement at East Fife, and although it was/is controversial there is no doubt that he effectively saved the club from bankruptcy some years ago. I think he has done the same at some other clubs. Why? Don't ask me; we should just be glad that there are still some people around willing to put their own money (for that's what it is) into football.

You criticise him for sitting beside Massone at today's meeting but how on earth could he or anyone get near to the truth about the club's financial position except by asking Massone and then talking and negotiating with him. Sources close to Rankine tell me that's exactly what he did and that the figure of £1.35m that is being quoted is the absolute minimum figure for the club's debts. It could be higher as more bills and more creditors come out of the woodwork.

Taking over Livi is not something anyone would do for commercial reasons. There seems to be no business case for doing so - or the club would be in someone's safe hands by now. I don't know why Neil Rankine would want to get involved but it certainly can't be to make money, and it seems clear from all that's been said and that I've read that expensive stadium ownership - with a perfectly correct long term obligation to use it for football purposes - is the last thing that he would want.

Give the man credit - he's at least trying to keep the club afloat in the First Division when administration or insolvency would mean being kicked out of the League and having to apply for readmission. Maybe that's what McDougall, who I understand didn't attend the meeting today, is waiting and hoping for.

Those with an interest in keeping a League club at Livingston, which must include the supporters and the Council, seem to me to have a fairly stark choice - pull together or sink together. Massone seems to be more or less history as soon as he gets some kind of payoff and if the proposal for a community-based club with supporter and community reps in the Board is to go ahead you need to get heads out of sand. There aren't many shows in town so my advice is to give the proposals now on the table a fair chance. They may not work out, but what alternatives are there?

Finally, from what I've seen at East Fife and heard elsewhere, Rankine is a terrier and very streetwise. Now that he's involved he isn't likely to give up easily or go away in the huff. Get used to him; probably around for some time to come!

I honestly can't see Rankine coming in to help, & work alongside Massone, out of the goodness of his heart! I also don't understand why Massone would sit there beside a man thats telling him he needs to go & taking it quite the thing! Hell, Massone has attacked fans, the trust, the council, the players, media, local businesses etc for asking for what they are due, Where are his partners in the consortium? But he will let this guy he has just met belittle him in a public meeting & tell him to waltz off when Rankine as yet has not invested? Very strange! There must be something in it for rankine.

[ObserverFromAfar]

Interesting developments at Dumbarton... talk about their owners looking for plannign permission for land around their ground, maybe giving up their stadium for another type of ground... then maybe ground sharing with Clydebank . or maybe not sharing.. but what's been posted on on the 2nd division board seems to be concern rather than comfort. Club statement appears confusing and uncertain.

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.ph...110255&st=0

Item on BBC site.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8134605.stm

Is Rankine still involved at Dumbarton????

Edited July 4, 2009 by ObserverFromAfar

[jimbo]

I honestly can't see Rankine coming in to help, & work alongside Massone, out of the goodness of his heart! I also don't understand why Massone would sit there beside a man thats telling him he needs to go & taking it quite the thing! Hell, Massone has attacked fans, the trust, the council, the players, media, local businesses etc for asking for what they are due, Where are his partners in the consortium? But he will let this guy he has just met belittle him in a public meeting & tell him to waltz off when Rankine as yet has not invested? Very strange! There must be something in it for rankine.

It was almost like watching a well rehearsed play!

[phantoms-livi-lass]

It was almost like watching a well rehearsed play!

That definately sounds more like the truth, No way he would allow anyone to be like that with him unless they were both going to seriously gain from it!

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Interesting developments at Dumbarton... talk about their owners looking for plannign permission for land around their ground, maybe giving up their stadium for another type of ground... then maybe ground sharing with Clydebank . or maybe not sharing.. but what's been posted on on the 2nd division board seems to be concern rather than comfort. Club statement appears confusing and uncertain.

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.ph...110255&st=0

Item on BBC site.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8134605.stm

Is Rankine still involved at Dumbarton????

Well that might be a taste of what's to come for us. Is it not Dumbarton that he has the young lass in?

[jimbo]

Well that might be a taste of what's to come for us. Is it not Dumbarton that he has the young lass in?

No That's East Fife. Not sure if he still has any interests in Dumbarton, well not hat are known.

[Guest]

You guys are in serious danger of having no football club at all to complain about and I think you're missing some big points in all this.

I know some of the background to Rankine's involvement at East Fife, and although it was/is controversial there is no doubt that he effectively saved the club from bankruptcy some years ago. I think he has done the same at some other clubs. Why? Don't ask me; we should just be glad that there are still some people around willing to put their own money (for that's what it is) into football.

You criticise him for sitting beside Massone at today's meeting but how on earth could he or anyone get near to the truth about the club's financial position except by asking Massone and then talking and negotiating with him. Sources close to Rankine tell me that's exactly what he did and that the figure of £1.35m that is being quoted is the absolute minimum figure for the club's debts. It could be higher as more bills and more creditors come out of the woodwork.

Taking over Livi is not something anyone would do for commercial reasons. There seems to be no business case for doing so - or the club would be in someone's safe hands by now. I don't know why Neil Rankine would want to get involved but it certainly can't be to make money, and it seems clear from all that's been said and that I've read that expensive stadium ownership - with a perfectly correct long term obligation to use it for football purposes - is the last thing that he would want.

Give the man credit - he's at least trying to keep the club afloat in the First Division when administration or insolvency would mean being kicked out of the League and having to apply for readmission. Maybe that's what McDougall, who I understand didn't attend the meeting today, is waiting and hoping for.

Those with an interest in keeping a League club at Livingston, which must include the supporters and the Council, seem to me to have a fairly stark choice - pull together or sink together. Massone seems to be more or less history as soon as he gets some kind of payoff and if the proposal for a community-based club with supporter and community reps in the Board is to go ahead you need to get heads out of sand. There aren't many shows in town so my advice is to give the proposals now on the table a fair chance. They may not work out, but what alternatives are there?

Finally, from what I've seen at East Fife and heard elsewhere, Rankine is a terrier and very streetwise. Now that he's involved he isn't likely to give up easily or go away in the huff. Get used to him; probably around for some time to come!

Hmmmm.........so he's in this for purely altruistic reasons. A benign benefactor. Not a chance. He's in it (if indeed he is in it at all) for what he can get out of it. There is a plan afoot which will involve ripping off the creditors yet again (it's so familiar down Livingston way that no-one even blinks at the suggestion of it) and acquiring the stadium. Once they own it, then the robust case for it being kept as a football venue will fall apart after a couple of legal challenges.

People can believe what they like, but if yiu believe Neil Rankine is here for the good of Livingston and the people owed money, then the Cottingley fairies should also feature amongst the cornerstones of what you believe to be true.

I say again........revenue is going to go down next season. Operating costs will be trimmed, but not to a great extent. Addressing historical debt is going to put costs through the roof.

If costs remain the same or 10% lower, and repayment of debt then adds 25% to the running costs, and all this alongside income dropping by at least 20%, then the model simply does not work. The debt simply gets worse and worse.

On HMRC debt. Lets say it wasn't addressed for the last year. So that was 200k that was spent on the club that won't be available next year.....and that will pay new tax demands of something like 15k a month. Then there's the debt to HMRC. That is supposedly going to be paid off at £12.5k a month. So on tax alone, the club will find itself with around 35k a month less than the 08/09 season...........and that'll be the case for a couple of years or so.

Do the same math again for other debt. It'll be at least another £15k a month simply playing catch up. This £15k then disappears from the normal budget.

On those two sets of debt alone, you will be paying (by their own projections) something like half of the revenue on debt, and the budget that saw you finish 7th last season will be absolutely decimated. It simply won't happen. Or else someone tends to take the taxpayers of the district for a ride by getting their hands on that stadium.

[Guest]

It has taken a while to get there, but now at long last, the first of the Livi support are rolling out their default position. It is the financial blackmail that was always going to be unveiled sooner or later, but we had to get past the "caring sharing people who want to act responsibly" bit first.

They have no assets.........we've been saying this for long enough. They have lots of debts. Provided they keep their debts maximized, then no-one will dare force them into liquidation because if they do, there are no assets to be realized, so anyone who opposes their continued existance will get nothing, and will make sure no-one else gets anything either.

So much for wanting a "change". What they actually mean is that next time they will behave ethically and honestly. Since they've got masses of debts at the moment, operating ethically and honestly really isn't the way to go, so lets not do that until such time as ethics and honesty don't get in the way of getting away with this one more time. They can start to operate ethically at some point in the future when it doesn't involve a negative impact. Ethics and honesty will continue to be aspirational. Little Orphan Annie said it so well............Tomorrow, tomorrow I love ya tomorrow, you're always a day away.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Guest

[Guest penelope pitstop]

You guys are in serious danger of having no football club at all to complain about and I think you're missing some big points in all this.

I know some of the background to Rankine's involvement at East Fife, and although it was/is controversial there is no doubt that he effectively saved the club from bankruptcy some years ago. I think he has done the same at some other clubs. Why? Don't ask me; we should just be glad that there are still some people around willing to put their own money (for that's what it is) into football.

You criticise him for sitting beside Massone at today's meeting but how on earth could he or anyone get near to the truth about the club's financial position except by asking Massone and then talking and negotiating with him. Sources close to Rankine tell me that's exactly what he did and that the figure of £1.35m that is being quoted is the absolute minimum figure for the club's debts. It could be higher as more bills and more creditors come out of the woodwork.

Taking over Livi is not something anyone would do for commercial reasons. There seems to be no business case for doing so - or the club would be in someone's safe hands by now. I don't know why Neil Rankine would want to get involved but it certainly can't be to make money, and it seems clear from all that's been said and that I've read that expensive stadium ownership - with a perfectly correct long term obligation to use it for football purposes - is the last thing that he would want.

Give the man credit - he's at least trying to keep the club afloat in the First Division when administration or insolvency would mean being kicked out of the League and having to apply for readmission. Maybe that's what McDougall, who I understand didn't attend the meeting today, is waiting and hoping for.

Those with an interest in keeping a League club at Livingston, which must include the supporters and the Council, seem to me to have a fairly stark choice - pull together or sink together. Massone seems to be more or less history as soon as he gets some kind of payoff and if the proposal for a community-based club with supporter and community reps in the Board is to go ahead you need to get heads out of sand. There aren't many shows in town so my advice is to give the proposals now on the table a fair chance. They may not work out, but what alternatives are there?

Finally, from what I've seen at East Fife and heard elsewhere, Rankine is a terrier and very streetwise. Now that he's involved he isn't likely to give up easily or go away in the huff. Get used to him; probably around for some time to come!

Hello and welcome to the forum Mr Rankine

[Kenny_m]

I believe Neil Rankine's (Bill Barr) interest in Airdrie was for the adjoining land at the stadium to be a commercial development. When the council poo pooed that idea, he walked. He is interested in property only and i would imagine that his only interest in Livi is to buy their stadium in a cut price deal.

Oh and don't forget he tried to remain annonymus throughout the whole Airdrie fiasco which says a lot about the man.

This whole thing stinks and brings back bad memories for me!

[Ivo den Bieman]

so yesterday was a lot of hot air, Massone is still there, pretty much refusing to budge without a substantial pay-off, and Rankine is equivocating as to what to do next (whether to get involved or not), and the local MSP turned up but has nothing concrete to offer.

So, no change at all then and I suspect little more than hot air will be emitted for the next ten days. That's all the time Livingston have left, before the interim liquidator is appointed and the club dies.

Nothing from yesterday's meeting, from what I've read of it, seems remotely likely to change that course of events. I imagine Rankine is there because, even if the club dies, it doesn't necessarily mean his hopes (if such they are) to buy the stadium at a cut price die with the club.

[EdinburghPar1975]

So ST sales will be down significantly for the coming season........of that there is no doubt. Attendances will be lower too. The club will generate (on crowds of 1,500 at an average of £20 a skull) somewhere in the region of £60k a month. Other sponsorship will bring in something akin to £20k a month. Lets say the council reduce the rent (and take what comes with that) to £50k a year. On top of that there will be rates electricity etc etc. Probably 5k a month. If they have run up HMRC debts of £200k in a single year, then factor in £15k a month for that for next season........plus £12.5k a month in arrears payments. We will be getting precious close to half of the monthly income gone before we even look at staff wages, playing staff wages, Massone's expenses, service providers etc etc.

1,600 or so watched a competitive Livingston. It will be less this coming season. For the life of me, I fail to see how things are going to get anything but worse unless some drastic cuts are made.

If crowds fall to 1,200 then things will get much much worse. Lots of plans to re-structure debt, but nothing to slash costs. It ain't going to work.

It is still all about importing debt rather than cutting costs.

I reckon you will be closer with the costs at the 1200 paying customers (much lower monthly income). If the non-paid debt is £1.3m or higher then there has to be more yet to be realised/ included. As I believe Duncan has already stated surely the only way to get costs down is to reduce the wages to the playing staff etc (going part time?) before asking people to give up their time and effort in an order to keep things as 'normal' as possible without racking up more costs.

[midTONs]

So ST sales will be down significantly for the coming season........of that there is no doubt. Attendances will be lower too. The club will generate (on crowds of 1,500 at an average of £20 a skull) somewhere in the region of £60k a month. .

Does anyone else not think those figure are crazy, there is no way the average can be £20 a head on crowds of 1,500 and thats including profit on hospitality, If my memory serves me right last seasons prices were Adults: £16, Concessions £7 so lets say you raise the prices by a pound you average would be around £13 and thats me being generous, that would give a figure of around £39k which for arguments sake we will raise to 40k. That is still 33% short of the 60k a month you are hoping for and in reality I think the monthly income from the gate will be closer to the 35k mark than the 40.

[ayrmad]

How many attended the meeting?

[Mon_The_Fife]

You guys are in serious danger of having no football club at all to complain about and I think you're missing some big points in all this.

I know some of the background to Rankine's involvement at East Fife, and although it was/is controversial there is no doubt that he effectively saved the club from bankruptcy some years ago. I think he has done the same at some other clubs. Why? Don't ask me; we should just be glad that there are still some people around willing to put their own money (for that's what it is) into football.

You criticise him for sitting beside Massone at today's meeting but how on earth could he or anyone get near to the truth about the club's financial position except by asking Massone and then talking and negotiating with him. Sources close to Rankine tell me that's exactly what he did and that the figure of £1.35m that is being quoted is the absolute minimum figure for the club's debts. It could be higher as more bills and more creditors come out of the woodwork.

Taking over Livi is not something anyone would do for commercial reasons. There seems to be no business case for doing so - or the club would be in someone's safe hands by now. I don't know why Neil Rankine would want to get involved but it certainly can't be to make money, and it seems clear from all that's been said and that I've read that expensive stadium ownership - with a perfectly correct long term obligation to use it for football purposes - is the last thing that he would want.

Give the man credit - he's at least trying to keep the club afloat in the First Division when administration or insolvency would mean being kicked out of the League and having to apply for readmission. Maybe that's what McDougall, who I understand didn't attend the meeting today, is waiting and hoping for.

Those with an interest in keeping a League club at Livingston, which must include the supporters and the Council, seem to me to have a fairly stark choice - pull together or sink together. Massone seems to be more or less history as soon as he gets some kind of payoff and if the proposal for a community-based club with supporter and community reps in the Board is to go ahead you need to get heads out of sand. There aren't many shows in town so my advice is to give the proposals now on the table a fair chance. They may not work out, but what alternatives are there?

Finally, from what I've seen at East Fife and heard elsewhere, Rankine is a terrier and very streetwise. Now that he's involved he isn't likely to give up easily or go away in the huff. Get used to him; probably around for some time to come!

Eh? When was this?

[the auld son]

Rankine has no involvement in DFC

Can we not just get this Livi saga over and done with.If it was a horse they would have shot it by this time.

the club is in the football equivelant of paliative care

Put it out its misery