Livingston - all the threads merged

[Jacobite_Dundee]

Incidentally, what would happen with Livi's other creditors if WLC decide to support their "restructured payment" plan?

I'd think them lucky if Livi haven't heard from HMRC by now - by reports, that's another big debt without much room to manoeuvre. There's also the question as to how Livi would escape the spiral of growing debt, as it's difficult to see a different business plan suddenly turning things around. So there would be more debt arising, at least until the first home game of the season. And if I was a creditor, I'd be looking at making sure some of that income came my way too, given the somewhat asset-less nature of the club these days.

I can't see any way out other than a big sugar daddy coming along. A rather insane big sugar daddy at that. I'm sorry, I just can't see a way out.

[Savage Henry]

As it says on my signature and said on the tee shirts of many Grimsby Town fans when they played the MK Dongs in the final of the tinpot paint cup at Wembley.....

FRANCHISE FOOTBALL - NEVER FORGIVE, NEVER FORGET.

None of this has anything to do with Livingston being a "franchise". In reality they are no different from any other team and no amount of cliched hyperbole can change this. Livingston are on death's door because they have been chronically mismanaged since the beginning.

[Guest]

I have a feeling this may happen. I don't want Livy to go bust, I think despite their shortcomings, they have something to offer Scottish football at a professional level. What is clear is that the Massone clown needs to bail, and fast. The council are making it clear that they would be willing to make a comprimise over the overdue rent.

The thing is, though, how many fans will have stuck by them after the events of the last 6 months? Enough to make paying up the rent and other debts achievable? The sad fact is that they need someone to come in and sort the mess out before they can really start again, and judging by the figures mooted in this topic, he is going to have to be prepared to depart with £1m of his fortune just to keep the place running.

That's off the park - what about on? Do they have enough players to play this season? There isn't much chance in them getting more in now is there?

The council need to get the rent money. If they don't or try to show leniency, then they open the doors to everyone in the district to challenge them in court due to them having demonstrated inconsistent behaviour in recovery debt from tenants. They are close to making a rod for their own backs.

Professional football in this country is a privately owned industry. On something as clear cut as rent and rates owed by a private company for the use of a public resource, then this is not the playing field for council people who might have a vested interest one way or the other.

They must have had CDE write the piece about "the good name of Livingston FC". Where does this garbage come from? This club has never ever had a good name. Livingston FC have been the standard bearer for all that is rotten in Scottish Football from the day they started. "Good name" my erse.

Much of the rest is a sop to supporters. They are politically concerned of the ramifications of upsetting 1,000 to 1,500 people, and the PR leverage they might have in the short term.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Guest

[vikingTON]

None of this has anything to do with Livingston being a "franchise". In reality they are no different from any other team and no amount of cliched hyperbole can change this. Livingston are on death's door because they have been chronically mismanaged since the beginning.

Difference #1: Livingston have relocated and significantly rebranded their side in order to appeal to a new 'new town' audience.

Morton(and the vast majority of football sides)... have not.

Tonsilitis' analysis is proving very helpful to bog-standard speculators like me today, if the process isn't going to be immediate (but likely) then surely the SFL should make contingency plans for an emergency meeting and potential election of a new club to the league?

[Savage Henry]

Difference #1: Livingston have relocated and significantly rebranded their side in order to appeal to a new 'new town' audience.

Morton(and the vast majority of football sides)... have not.

Tonsilitis' analysis is proving very helpful to bog-standard speculators like me today, if the process isn't going to be immediate (but likely) then surely the SFL should make contingency plans for an emergency meeting and potential election of a new club to the league?

You would have thought so wouldn't you?

Either the SFL are just hoping everything turns out for the best and all the problems disappear magically or Livingston have given assurance about their long term sustainability. Given that the latter seems improbable at best, you would have thought that the SFL would have started the election process, or automatically relegated Livingston. The problem being, I suppose, that technically they haven't done anything wrong as the rules stand.

Frankly this is evidence that far more stringent checks have to be put on the finances of member clubs.

[Kenny_m]

As an Airdrie fan i remember these days very well and have genuine sympathy for the fans.

Livi have probably already written off more than the total sum ( i believe 4 years ago the debt was 10m) that finished Airdrie (2.5m approx) from their last bout of administration, to do it again so soon is unbelievable! I doubt Livi will survive this as to come out of administration you have to prove you have a secure business plan but with their known history they will have to come up with a beauty.

[Guest Jimmy Saville]

It would be hilarious if it turned out Massone was a serial fantasist who lived in a small flat in Rome with his mama.

Why have none of the big papers gone to Italy to find out his backstory?

I spose they were hoping Duncan would do the research for them while they read their Iphone through booze soaked eyes.

[Ivo den Bieman]

Difference #1: Livingston have relocated and significantly rebranded their side in order to appeal to a new 'new town' audience.

Morton(and the vast majority of football sides)... have not.

Tonsilitis' analysis is proving very helpful to bog-standard speculators like me today, if the process isn't going to be immediate (but likely) then surely the SFL should make contingency plans for an emergency meeting and potential election of a new club to the league?

There's been debate here and elsewhere that it's unfair/too late to promote Airdrie and Cowdenbeath at such short notice, with so little time to prepare for a season in a higher division. there is certainly *no* time whatever for a proper election, with due diligence shown, of a new club into the league for 2009-10.

Demonstrably, the SFL's utterly pathetic strategy is to sit tight, say nothing and hope by some miracle that the fairies at the bottom of the garden come along at night and make all Livingston's problems go away.

If Livingston go bust, the SFL are likely to face entirely justified anger from fans and club officials alike at their handling of this, and severe embarrassment at having one of their competitions start a club short.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Ivo den Bieman

[GordieBoy80]

West Lothian Council have begun legal proceedings as Livingston missed last night's deadline to pay a sum of £280,000

Pretty grim

[Guest Jimmy Saville]

There's been debate here and elsewhere that it's unfair/too late to promote Airdrie and Cowdenbeath at such short notice, with so little time to prepare for a season in a higher division. there is certainly *no* time whatever for a proper election, with due diligence shown, of a new club into the league for 2009-10.

Demonstrably, the SFL's utterly pathetic strategy is to sit tight, say nothing and hope by some miracle that the fairies at the bottom of the garden come along at night and make all Livingston's problems go away.

If Livingston go bust, the SFL are likely to face entirely justified anger from fans and club officials alike at their handling of this, and severe embarrassment at having one of their competitions start a club short.

What makes you think the SFL has not been working away in the background whilst the Great Italian Pretender makes the Bonnie Prince's military mince through scotland, on his shetland pony called Lavender, look like blitzkrieg.

The same teams that applied the last time will be called and they will be in the same position as last time.

These teams are chewing their own scrotum off to get in the league.

It's not difficult.

[Ivo den Bieman]

...because there's no evidence whatever that this is happening.

Of course, you'd think a responsible regulator would have been doing all this in public for some time, having set Livingston a deadline by which to prove that they can start the season. Even if they stave off liquidation, its by no means certain that they are in any position to start playing competitive games in early August.

I'm not clear that all the teams who applied are in the same position as last time. Edinburgh City seem to have gone backwards since their failure last year, whilst Spartans and Cove would be clear favourites.

It's not difficult, sure- but it takes a lot of time to do an election properly and that's exactly what the SFL don't have.

[Guest Jimmy Saville]

...because there's no evidence whatever that this is happening.

Of course, you'd think a responsible regulator would have been doing all this in public for some time, having set Livingston a deadline by which to prove that they can start the season. Even if they stave off liquidation, its by no means certain that they are in any position to start playing competitive games in early August.

I'm not clear that all the teams who applied are in the same position as last time. Edinburgh City seem to have gone backwards since their failure last year, whilst Spartans and Cove would be clear favourites.

It's not difficult, sure- but it takes a lot of time to do an election properly and that's exactly what the SFL don't have.

So because you have not seen evidence it does not exist.

You honestly believe the SFL club chairmen who personally invest hundreds of thousands of pounds of REAL money into clubs have sat with their thumbs lodged up their rectums thinking the same nonsensical drivel that is oft displayed in this thread.

[Yoss]

...because there's no evidence whatever that this is happening.

Of course, you'd think a responsible regulator would have been doing all this in public for some time, having set Livingston a deadline by which to prove that they can start the season. Even if they stave off liquidation, its by no means certain that they are in any position to start playing competitive games in early August.

I'm not clear that all the teams who applied are in the same position as last time. Edinburgh City seem to have gone backwards since their failure last year, whilst Spartans and Cove would be clear favourites.

It's not difficult, sure- but it takes a lot of time to do an election properly and that's exactly what the SFL don't have.

It comes back to the same question, how are Livingston supposed to be able to prove they can start the season? Massone has assured everyone all along that they can and will - what other criteria would you have used to make that judgement?

[Ivo den Bieman]

You seem to be choking on your lunchtime kedgeree at the suggestion.

Do you have evidence that the SFL are busy putting an alternative in place?

if not, I'll continue to believe that the SFL are continuing to do what they've been doing for the rest of the close season about this- i.e. nothing.

[Ivo den Bieman]

It comes back to the same question, how are Livingston supposed to be able to prove they can start the season? Massone has assured everyone all along that they can and will - what other criteria would you have used to make that judgement?

The fact that their stadium doesn't now have a safety certificate and won't for at least a month, and that they are the subject of a winding up order from their original and biggest supporter- WLC- is a pretty clear indication that they are no longer in a position to start the season.

The SFL should have acted much sooner and to a clearer set of deadlines than they have done. After all Livingston's imminent demise has been forecast on this thread since last october, and the club barely made it through last season. Someone else pointed out that there needs to be a clear and transparent licensing framework for senior clubs and, more importantly, senior club chairman, so that a situation like this doesn't arise again.

[Yoss]

The fact that their stadium doesn't now have a safety certificate and won't for at least a month, and that they are the subject of a winding up order from their original and biggest supporter- WLC- is a pretty clear indication that they are no longer in a position to start the season.

The SFL should have acted much sooner and to a clearer set of deadlines than they have done. After all Livingston's imminent demise has been forecast on this thread since last october, and the club barely made it through last season. Someone else pointed out that there needs to be a clear and transparent licensing framework for senior clubs and, more importantly, senior club chairman, so that a situation like this doesn't arise again.

Both of those things have just happened today, and in any case it's not unusual either for a ground to be without a safety certificate for all kinds of reasons during a close season, nor is it *that* unusual for winding-up orders to be issued, quite a number of clubs have had them, usually from the Inaldn Revenue, and survived. Any watertight criteria you try to put in place on those lines will be too hardline and will catch other clubs, needlessly, now or in the future.

[Yoss]

And the same goes for your second paragraph, it would be very difficult to think what rules you could have set that would have disallowed Massone as a chairman that wouldn't disallow virtually anyone else.

Clearer set of deadlines - yes I agree, but unless you;ve got good ideas for what deadlines and for what, specifically, that's just hot air.

[Ivo den Bieman]

I'd suggest that there is a slight difference between being the subject of a defensible winding up order from the IR, and the subject of an indefensible winding up order from your landlord.

I'm not talking about rigid adherence to a set of watertight criteria- I'm talking about commonsense red flags (such as electricity being cut off, players not being paid, winding up orders, constant appearances in debtors court) which would trigger the league's involvement in a situation- after all there are ways in which they could actually help a club in a bit of bother. Looks like Livi are beyond that stage though.

[Ivo den Bieman]

And the same goes for your second paragraph, it would be very difficult to think what rules you could have set that would have disallowed Massone as a chairman that wouldn't disallow virtually anyone else.

Clearer set of deadlines - yes I agree, but unless you;ve got good ideas for what deadlines and for what, specifically, that's just hot air.

whereas your shoulder shrugging is effectively a charter for the likes of Massone, Hugh Scott etc etc etc to run a club into the ground without any intervention from the SFL, and, in the case of liquidation, to its direct detriment.

[ayrmad]

Michelle McManus has just cleared her throat.

But I can't hear her dulcet tones yet.