Livingston - all the threads merged

[wearealldoomed]

No they can't. It is almost certain that all the staff and players will be dismissed more or less immediately as it would seem that there is no money to pay them. If you are referring to my comment that the whole process takes 2-3 years, I was referring to winding up the company's financial affairs. From a practical perspective, the appointment of an interim liquidator means instant death for the football team!

I think the league have to act now given the circumstances and the fact that apart from the liquidation there is no safety certificate presumably because there is no electricity = no ground.

Airdrieonians entered provisional liquidation first in 1999 then again in early 2000, when one of David Murray's companies had our gate receipts from the Dundee Utd cup tie arrested over a debt of around £50K. We continued to play under various regimes until mid 2002.

As far as I remember, the liquidation process wasn't completed until 2006 or thereabouts. Blair Nimmo/KPMG's incompetence and Barr's intransigence certainly contibuted to the delay.

[Tonsilitis]

er...they've started action to liquidate the club in court.

The only way this will be staved off is if Massone walks away which he shows no sign of doing. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if he deliberately stayed there to ensure the club were liquidated so that his mad version of events would be "vindicated".

That said Livingston have more lives than an extremely lucky Irish cat, and it won't surprise me at all to see a version of them emerge intact from this shambles. The council don't *really* want to close them down and the SFL will stedfastly do nothing.

That Ged Nixon appears on a council statement is significant- it means that a plan is all ready to roll to save the club when Massone walks (if he does). namely, the Trust + McDougall take over, make a large goodwill payment towards the settling of the council debt in return for a withdrawal of the liquidation proceedings, and agree a new plan to pay the rest back in a short space of time.

[/quote/]

Trouble is, and always has been with football club insolvencies, that the league membership is non transferable. If Livi go into liquidation there is no way back for the company unless all its debts plus interest plus the liquidator's fees and costs are paid in full.

Any new company whether run by the supporter's trust or a some other party would require them to apply for league membership and take their chances along with the likes of Spartans etc.

One novel idea might be if the council are so keen on maintaining senior football at Almondvale, why don't they take it over by converting their debt to shares in Livi FC providing Massone can be persuaded to walk away which might be done by getting an Insolvency practitioner to put the frighteners on him about personal liability.

[Tonsilitis]

Airdrieonians entered provisional liquidation first in 1999 then again in early 2000, when one of David Murray's companies had our gate receipts from the Dundee Utd cup tie arrested over a debt of around £50K. We continued to play under various regimes until mid 2002.

As far as I remember, the liquidation process wasn't completed until 2006 or thereabouts. Blair Nimmo/KPMG's incompetence and Barr's intransigence certainly contibuted to the delay.

You can back a company out of provisional liquidation but not after the winding up order is made. A liquidator can trade a company but does so at his own risk. Would you care to take on personal responsibility for ongoing losses at a football club like Livi?

The non transferability of the league membership is why Airdrie United required Clydebank - because the original Airdrieonians league membership had died with the company.

As for finally closing a liquidation, to be honest what usually happens is that there is a flurry of activity in the first few months as the important stuff is done and then things tend to slow up as the liquidator has moved onto other cases and closing out older ones tends to drop into the 'do it when we have time' category, especially if there is no dividend to creditors.

[KingfaetheSooth]

I'm not as fixated on community/trust ownership. Without MacDougall the Trust don't have the necessary funds to make a credible fist of running the club at any higher a level than the EoS first division. They are rumoured to only have about 10k. to call on.

I do know from observing MacDougall's career at Cowdenbeath that he is a football man through and through and a 100% straight as a die chairman. You couldn't wish for a better and harder working chairman at a lower league side.

MacDougall + Trust- and maybe a name change to "Livingston Thistle" to distance the new owners from the past of failed shysters and fanatsists- and maybe those fans unhappy at Livingston;s formation and recent history might give them a chance.

With debts running at their current level 100% trust/fan ownership is as much fantasy as Massone's Livingston qualifying for the Champions League.

Fair comment. Though a community club could be run via a Community Interest Company. (CIC) link

Time is of course of the essence and I'd argue that a fan-run club IS sustainable in the SFL - though more likely at SF3 level.

I also think that the fans at a club likes of Montrose, Stirling Albion or Dumbarton are liable to make a better fist of running their club than the fans of Livingston FC who seem divided, lacking in drive and fairly rudderless. You couldn't rely on the Drum Beat Mafia running a bus to away games, never mind the actual club.

Fans can run a football club as has been demonstrated at AFC Wimbledon - who started a new club in 2002 from scratch with not even a pot to piss in - now 7 years later - we are one promotion away from the football league - and own our own stadium. B) It's a lot easier to start from scratch in some ways though - no debts or baggage for one thing. Gretna and Clydebank seem to be doing OK - all be it an non-league level. There needs to be an overhaul of Scottish football though and a pyramid system - that is the only think that the late Brooks Mileson ever got right.

[The Old Northerner]

They could lease it out to a football team - if only there was one operating locally.

Livingston United could have the finest ground in Junior football - bar none.

[Doink]

MK DONS - NEXT STOP THE PREMIERSHIP THE RISE CONTINUES!

[Ivo den Bieman]

Fair comment. Though a community club could be run via a Community Interest Company. (CIC) link

Time is of course of the essence and I'd argue that a fan-run club IS sustainable in the SFL - though more likely at SF3 level.

I also think that the fans at a club likes of Montrose, Stirling Albion or Dumbarton are liable to make a better fist of running their club than the fans of Livingston FC who seem divided, lacking in drive and fairly rudderless. You couldn't rely on the Drum Beat Mafia running a bus to away games, never mind the actual club.

Fans can run a football club as has been demonstrated at AFC Wimbledon - who started a new club in 2002 from scratch with not even a pot to piss in - now 7 years later - we are one promotion away from the football league - and own our own stadium. B) It's a lot easier to start from scratch in some ways though - no debts or baggage for one thing. Gretna and Clydebank seem to be doing OK - all be it an non-league level. There needs to be an overhaul of Scottish football though and a pyramid system - that is the only think that the late Brooks Mileson ever got right.

I don't disagree with any of this- just that it's kind of irrelevant at the moment. According to Tonsilitis' timetable. Livingston now have roughly two to three weeks to avoid their liquidation becoming irreversible, and being kicked out of the SFL. Talk of a community run club is, at best, of academic interest in the current scenario.

[KingfaetheSooth]

MK DONS - NEXT STOP THE PREMIERSHIP THE RISE CONTINUES!

You're repeating yourself. The rise continues without their manager though - as yet another 'celebrity' manager rides off into the sunset to manage a proper club.

The Dongs are still a level below where Wimbledon FC were in 2002 - some rise that has been.

[KingfaetheSooth]

I am certain that as the current board continue to learn about Scottish football and the club that they have bought, there will be a few issues needing resolved that perhaps they were unaware of. I wouldn't imagine that they landed up here to rack up some minor debts, get sued and then rack off back to Italy.

Nothing to see here.

Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing.

[wearealldoomed]

You can back a company out of provisional liquidation but not after the winding up order is made. A liquidator can trade a company but does so at his own risk. Would you care to take on personal responsibility for ongoing losses at a football club like Livi?

The non transferability of the league membership is why Airdrie United required Clydebank - because the original Airdrieonians league membership had died with the company.

As for finally closing a liquidation, to be honest what usually happens is that there is a flurry of activity in the first few months as the important stuff is done and then things tend to slow up as the liquidator has moved onto other cases and closing out older ones tends to drop into the 'do it when we have time' category, especially if there is no dividend to creditors.

I wasn't aware that the liqudator was liable for ongoing losses if it traded the company as a going concern.

In the case of Airdrieonians, my gut feeling is that it could have been ran, at worst, on a break even basis. If the debts were restructured or written off, the income streams generated by the stadium and a core support (at the time) of 2000 could have supported a half decent first division club, as St Johnstone have shown.

With Livingston, no one has manged to stem the flow of losses since the club's inception. With no assets, a handful of players under contact and a shitoad of debt, I con't see any knights in white armour stepping forward. If the debts are written off, they'd be a sitting duck for anyone who fancies league membership, IMO.

As I recall, Clydebank's debts were written off by the time we arrived on the csene. JB paid £250k for the "club" and paid off the remaider of Clydebank's groundsharing contract with Cappielow.

[Soccer Dark Blue]

http://sport.scotsman.com/football/Liquida...ton-.5416131.jp

Interesting article in the Scotsman today.

[Casey]

http://sport.scotsman.com/football/Liquida...ton-.5416131.jp

Interesting article in the Scotsman today.

Already posted at 08:09 this morning

Post 3308.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Casey

[lyle be back]

I have a nasty feeling that the following may play out...

1. Massone realises the game's up and legs it. Someone takes over before admin.

2. They say - it was the previous guy's fault - pump enough in to pay off immediate issues (Scottish Power, police, players etc) and come to an 'arrangement' with WLC to pay the debt off over a long period of time.

3. SFA, faced with the alternative of messing up the league with such a short notice go 'we'll keep Livi in the 1st as disruption is too much. It was the previous guy's fault'.

4. Livi start the season in Div 1.

Therefore nothing changes, people will still have unpaid debt, but the 'big boys' will have come to a cosy arrangement to keep it all going.

Hope not. Livi have cheated their way in this division for long enough. If you can't pay your debts, you're not competing at the same level as those clubs who take tough decisions to remain within their budget. Even if the above happens, there needs to be a punishment of sorts to prevent others from taking this 'buy now think about paying later' attitude.

[Soccer Dark Blue]

Already posted at 08:09 this morning

Post 3308.

Oh, right...opps....sorry

[Homer Thompson]

I have a nasty feeling that the following may play out...

1. Massone realises the game's up and legs it. Someone takes over before admin.

2. They say - it was the previous guy's fault - pump enough in to pay off immediate issues (Scottish Power, police, players etc) and come to an 'arrangement' with WLC to pay the debt off over a long period of time.

3. SFA, faced with the alternative of messing up the league with such a short notice go 'we'll keep Livi in the 1st as disruption is too much. It was the previous guy's fault'.

4. Livi start the season in Div 1.

Therefore nothing changes, people will still have unpaid debt, but the 'big boys' will have come to a cosy arrangement to keep it all going.

Hope not. Livi have cheated their way in this division for long enough. If you can't pay your debts, you're not competing at the same level as those clubs who take tough decisions to remain within their budget. Even if the above happens, there needs to be a punishment of sorts to prevent others from taking this 'buy now think about paying later' attitude.

If the rumours are correct taking out the WLC debt would still leave somewhere in the region of £500k to pay. I would have thought its unlikely anyone would come along and put that sort of money into the club.

[EdinburghPar1975]

To me the fact that he wasn't even in the country on the day that he was supposed to clear the debt/ buy the stadium speaks volumes. I know he is due back today and I will be interested (as will a few others) to see if this happens.

The council appear to be pretty firm that there will now be no new payment plans agreed and that they are unwilling to speak to Massone (unless all debts to them are cleared in full). As if that weren't enough for the supporters the Inland Revenue and Police are now claiming to be out of pocket, the I.R for a 'six figure sum'.

Unless Massone is only turning up to give the keys to the stadium over to somebody else, or has a suitcase full of cash to clear the debt I can only see a long and drawn out end to this saga.

[Ivo den Bieman]

I have a nasty feeling that the following may play out...

1. Massone realises the game's up and legs it. Someone takes over before admin.

2. They say - it was the previous guy's fault - pump enough in to pay off immediate issues (Scottish Power, police, players etc) and come to an 'arrangement' with WLC to pay the debt off over a long period of time.

3. SFA, faced with the alternative of messing up the league with such a short notice go 'we'll keep Livi in the 1st as disruption is too much. It was the previous guy's fault'.

4. Livi start the season in Div 1.

Therefore nothing changes, people will still have unpaid debt, but the 'big boys' will have come to a cosy arrangement to keep it all going.

Hope not. Livi have cheated their way in this division for long enough. If you can't pay your debts, you're not competing at the same level as those clubs who take tough decisions to remain within their budget. Even if the above happens, there needs to be a punishment of sorts to prevent others from taking this 'buy now think about paying later' attitude.

agreed- Livingston have the luck of the devil in situations like this and it won't surprise me at all to see them survive in some form.

Meanwhile, in the parallel universe inhabited by the SFL, there has been no mention whatever of this crisis on their official news site for at least the last week. So they're not gearing up for action anytime soon.

[Jacobite_Dundee]

Unless Massone is only turning up to give the keys to the stadium over to somebody else, or has a suitcase full of cash to clear the debt I can only see a long and drawn out end to this saga.

By my reckoning, he just needs to hold another 5351 bucket appeals to clear the current debt (£800k divided by £149.50). Alas, I think Livi will be very, very lucky indeed if someone comes in to bail it out. As said above, I think it's well past the pay-the-immediate-debts and negotiate-the-rest point. If you can find a local (and very young) multi-millionaire who has been a life-long Livi supporter, I'll be, eh, well, sceptical. And then persuade them, in an economic downturn, to plough a million or so into the club without megalomaniac tendencies.

Sorry, Livi fans, but we need some light amusement whilst this all plays out. Perhaps you could have a sweepstake on the post number on this thread that confirms the final demise of the club, as a wee fundraiser?

[mcjimbob_dfc]

I have a nasty feeling that the following may play out...

1. Massone realises the game's up and legs it. Someone takes over before admin.

2. They say - it was the previous guy's fault - pump enough in to pay off immediate issues (Scottish Power, police, players etc) and come to an 'arrangement' with WLC to pay the debt off over a long period of time.

3. SFA, faced with the alternative of messing up the league with such a short notice go 'we'll keep Livi in the 1st as disruption is too much. It was the previous guy's fault'.

4. Livi start the season in Div 1.

Therefore nothing changes, people will still have unpaid debt, but the 'big boys' will have come to a cosy arrangement to keep it all going.

Hope not. Livi have cheated their way in this division for long enough. If you can't pay your debts, you're not competing at the same level as those clubs who take tough decisions to remain within their budget. Even if the above happens, there needs to be a punishment of sorts to prevent others from taking this 'buy now think about paying later' attitude.

I have a feeling this may happen. I don't want Livy to go bust, I think despite their shortcomings, they have something to offer Scottish football at a professional level. What is clear is that the Massone clown needs to bail, and fast. The council are making it clear that they would be willing to make a comprimise over the overdue rent.

The thing is, though, how many fans will have stuck by them after the events of the last 6 months? Enough to make paying up the rent and other debts achievable? The sad fact is that they need someone to come in and sort the mess out before they can really start again, and judging by the figures mooted in this topic, he is going to have to be prepared to depart with £1m of his fortune just to keep the place running.

That's off the park - what about on? Do they have enough players to play this season? There isn't much chance in them getting more in now is there?

[southview]

Totally agree with post 3350.

I have felt for some time now that Livi will, incredibly, dodge the bullet on this one and much of it will be down to the fact that the council is prepared to give them chance after chance after...

In addition, they have benefited from a poor lack of leadership/management from the SFL who appear to have adopted the stance of "if we don't talk about it, we can pretend nothing is happening".

We've still heard nothing from them even though it has been confirmed that Almondvale doesn't have a safety certificate!

The way Livi under the stewardship of Massone have conducted their business is dreadful and as I write this, I can't believe they have not been hit by any sanctions while those who have played by the rules suffer on missing out on players or get relegated.

Incidentally, what would happen with Livi's other creditors if WLC decide to support their "restructured payment" plan?