Livingston - all the threads merged

[The Idiot Bástard Son]

I might be mistaken, but I thought both Falkirk and St Mirren had SPL-compliant grounds.

Yep. And Saints started getting the seats in way back in 1991. Doesn't sound too much like sitting on our butts and doing nothing. But, of course, what do I know? I'd much rather support a team that's in the First Division that had 6 or 7 (I forget which as well) seasons in the top flight.

Wow! If only Saint Mirren could manage something like that, eh? Not as if we've ever been a team that's bothered the top league much in our entire history.

[H_B]

On a general point now, Scottish football is at a crossroads, especially for the 'wee' clubs

There are far too many clubs in Scotland.

[btb]

What you'd swap the title and ONE year in the SPL for 6/7 seasons (or whatever it was I lose count)?

Six years - now we've been there for two of them and this is the second since you went down. Let's face it Hamilton are going down this season so at best you're talking one more season in the SPL than us. Would I swap that for financial stability - no!

I might be willing to swap it for something tangible like a chance to see my team win a major trophy like Livingston did - but your lot spunked it away on next to nothing!

You saints have always had big mouths that same year you won you gloated how Dunfermline weren't good enough for the SPL and go straight back down. I'll never enjoy watching so many faces openly cry in public when you went straight back down the year after.

And you're the guy who called us "bitter, bitter, bitter".

Edited November 21, 2008 by btb

[Swampy]

There are far too many clubs in Scotland.

I disagree. There are just too many badly-run clubs.

[Tonsilitis]

Err, no they dont! Only one club in the SPL spends more than they earn - Hearts. The rest all have sensible Wages/Turnover ratios.

And the point was clearly around those sides which spend money which isn't theirs. Like Dunfermline, Livingston and Dundee.

Cheats, in other words.

You are correct that most SPL clubs have addressed the stupidity of their payroll budgets but that is a relatively recent phenomena. Most clubs tried to at least be able to semi compete with the old firm and spent money on has been foreigners at the expense of a whole generation of Scottish footballers. Had Falkirk been in the SPL then, they would have done the same or got relegated.

Its the trap that bigger and better clubs than Livi fell into and was almost the death of quite a few. It has made the SPL very protectionist and means that outside of that league, it is almost impossible to run full time football and balance the books. I can only think of St Johnstone who manage it in any meaningful way and that is in part down to them having other income from the facilities around their ground

As for the community football thing - in the face of what a typical first division club needs in terms of funding, its a joke. Taking my club, Morton, losses last year were around £335,000 all of which is funded from Douglas Rae's Group, Golden Casket. If he was not there, could Greenock come up with a thousand people willing to cough up £335 per annum ongoing over and above their normal football costs? I have my doubts. And then there's the cost of upgrading Cappielow if we are ever to have SPL ambitions - £2-3m minimum? We are just lucky to have found ourselves an honest millionaire who is also a Morton man through and through.

There not much room here for some of the smug comments that have been made. Nearly every club in lower league Scotland and especially the first division should look at Livi and think "there but for the grace of god!"

[monthelie']

The mind boggles.

You make it out as if Almondvale is the greatest stadium in the world. Yes, St. Mirren may well be moving to a soulless concrete shell, but a soulless concrete shell is exactly what Livingston play in. That's the irony of your post.

Anyway, Love Street isn't a disgusting stadium, it's a great football ground. It's a shame that St. Mirren are leaving it, and although they are leaving behind a ground with character for an identikit stadium, they've done the right thing, because it means they're finally out of debt. They've done what they had to do to live within their means, and they haven't exactly sacrificed ambition. They are an SPL club, and Livingston are not, despite spending more than they have. St. Mirren's business model is a far more sensible route to take than Livingston's.

Go on about Livingston's ambition all you want, but look at where it's got them. St. Mirren and Falkirk on the other hand, who you love to criticise, have lived within their means, and I don't see how you could call them unambitious, seen as they have gone from bog standard First Division clubs to a side who came agonisingly close to making the top six, and a side now in their third year in the top flight.

As much as I hate the fact that I've talked up St. Mirren for three paragraphs, it's just common sense.

I read this thread to find out exactly how badly Livi were in the shit, as I don't think many football people want to see other fans lose their club, not to read about a deranged Dunfermline fan let loose on a computer.

The posts are so laughable, there's even a Morton fan defending Smfc.

[Boghead Ben]

As for the community football thing - in the face of what a typical first division club needs in terms of funding, its a joke.

Unsurprisingly, I'm going to disagree with you.

Didn't Morton survive the Hugh Scott malarkey on the back of fans getting together and funding his departure and in the process saving the Club?

Having clubs in the hands of single owners, accountable to no-one but a few self-serving shareholders, is a disaster waiting to happen. All the time.

Could the town of Greenock support a first division football club as a community venture? Yes, I think it could. Sure, it would be hard work, but very much achievable.

[Diamonds are Forever]

Aside from all bickering I'd just like to wish Livi all the best and hope they get things sorted. Livi have been around since I started watching football, more or less, so I have just as many memories of them as St Mirren, Falkirk, Hamilton and most other clubs that have spent plenty time in the lower leagues in the past 10-15 years. It's become a bit of a cliche for Airdrie fans to say 'I know how it feels' etc, but it is still true, and it is a horrible feeling.

Maybe they did cheat, spend money they didn't have, and to be honest most folk knew it would end in tears, just like Gretna, but that's still not the fault of the fans. The fans who don't bother supporting them anymore don't deserve a football club but the ones left are obviously loyal passionate fans. I think it's a bit pathetic to want them to lose their team.

[The Idiot Bástard Son]

I read this thread to find out exactly how badly Livi were in the shit, as I don't think many football people want to see other fans lose their club, not to read about a deranged Dunfermline fan let loose on a computer.

The posts are so laughable, there's even a Morton fan defending Smfc.

Yeah, it is pretty funny, isn't it?

I'm not really too phased about Livingston. I'll admit to a certain amount of schadenfreude but that goes back to an article Kevin McCarra of the Scotland on Sunday wrote some years back when Saints went down and Livingston came up, claiming that Livingston were the way forward for Scottish clubs. He congratulated them for not having the "small town mentality of a club like St. Mirren". Saints cut their cloth to suit, Livingston didn't. Saints are now getting out of debt and in the SPL, Livingston, amongst a few others, are in the First Division and saddled with a large amount of money owed.

Some of us knew it would come back to bite them on the arse. Some call it karma. Others just say "what goes around comes around". Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.

[H_B]

Nearly every club in lower league Scotland and especially the first division should look at Livi and think "there but for the grace of god!"

This isn't true at all.

Livingston adopted an aggressive approach to their march through the leagues, taking players from clubs like Falkirk by virtue of enormous spending.

Marino Keith I believe was offered an eye watering deal by Livingston. Money that wasn't theirs. Likewise Raith Rovers were raided.

Livingston didn't want to work their way through the leagues, because they would never have reached the SPL doing so. Exactly the same as Gretna. Therefore they trampled over bigger clubs like Falkirk by spending on the never never, and lo! it came to disaster.

[H_B]

He congratulated them for not having the "small town mentality of a club like St. Mirren".

Gretna all over again.

Sportswriters fell over themselves to praise Gretna's "ambition". Utterly ludicrous and a total insult to clubs spending within their means.

[Diamonds are Forever]

Yeah, it is pretty funny, isn't it?

I'm not really too phased about Livingston. I'll admit to a certain amount of schadenfreude but that goes back to an article Kevin McCarra of the Scotland on Sunday wrote some years back when Saints went down and Livingston came up, claiming that Livingston were the way forward for Scottish clubs. He congratulated them for not having the "small town mentality of a club like St. Mirren". Saints cut their cloth to suit, Livingston didn't. Saints are now getting out of debt and in the SPL, Livingston, amongst a few others, are in the First Division and saddled with a large amount of money owed.

Some of us knew it would come back to bite them on the arse. Some call it karma. Others just say "what goes around comes around". Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.

Why hold that against Livi? They didn't brag about being the way forward for Scottish clubs, as far as I know. Surely it is Kevin McCarra you should have the dislike of, and justifiably, a certain smugness?

[KingfaetheSooth]

No. But the Sonstrust are a fully functioning part of DFC. We have an elected director on the Club Board, and our members are a key part of the decision making process at SHS.

It's taken a lot of hard work to get to where we are now, and things are improving all the time. But, we still have a lot of work to do.

On a general point now, Scottish football is at a crossroads, especially for the 'wee' clubs (copyright any daily tabloid or broadsheet). As we have just seen at Berwick, vested interests and egos just get in the way of solutions and help (which is there).

Why is it - and I throw this open to all - that 'ordinary' fans have to constantly prove themselves in the face of consistent mis-manangement from people that the Scottish football hierarchy welcome with open arms?

At the end of the day, without supporters, Clubs are pointless. Anyone who thinks that owning a (Scottish) football club is going to make them money, or that it (the Club) can be run in a different way to common business practice (which isn't rocket science by the way), is off his or her head.

At all clubs, fans need to stick together. At all times. Look at the Trust models down south who have achieved success and stability. Exeter, Stockport and Telford. There are of course a lot more, but those three highlight how it can be done.

Anyway, best of luck to Livi fans. As I said before, help IS out there. Just ask.

I'm a real believer in the trust movement, but it's not always the panacea for clubs or their supporters. Many small clubs function quite well without supporter trusts or even supporter representation. At Queen of the South, the supporters trust is pretty well moribund - mainly because the club is successful with a well-liked and reasonably rich ex-farmer in charge, who supported the club man and boy. He's just led the club through the most successful period in it's history. Also, other more established supporter groups are well run and have good existing links with the club. The trust has struggled to get either the volunteers or a role and as a result has pretty much become sidelined. I think that trusts come in to their own when football clubs are in crisis or have problems.

I think what is more important is to have a rigorous 'fit and proper' person test for potential football club owners and closer ,monitoring and checking by the football authorities. We've started to see this and there are some examples of good practice in the Blue Square Conference divisions for example. It looks like the SPL might be prepared to do something after the Gretna debacle too.

Anyway, good luck to the Sons trust, I chatted to a few of your guys and girls when I attended the SD Scottish Conference a couple of years ago. You're a decent bunch.

Though, you forgot to mention AFC Wimbledon when you name checked trust-run clubs down South!

There are far too many clubs in Scotland.

Or more properly, there are too many scottish clubs who are badly run and/or operating beyond their means. Even the diddy clubs deserve to exist. Scottish football and the league system probably does need an overhaul, but not a cull in clubs.

Edited November 21, 2008 by KingfaetheSooth

[H_B]

Or more properly, there are too many scottish clubs who are badly run and/or operating beyond their means. Even the diddy clubs deserve to exist. Scottish football and the league system probably does need an overhaul, but not a cull in clubs.

I'm not sure what this overhaul is going to achieve though.

How many clubs have the facilities even to compete at Division One level?

[The Old Northerner]

Why hold that against Livi? They didn't brag about being the way forward for Scottish clubs, as far as I know. Surely it is Kevin McCarra you should have the dislike of, and justifiably, a certain smugness?

A good few Livvy fans basked in that glory - and some fans were still doing so (more on their own forums) all the way through the Keane debacle and the Flynn takeover. Moreover, the barbed comments about dinosaurs enduring decades of stagnation would suggest that they *did* think they were a bit revolutionary.

[Yoss]

It's hardly their fans fault if they keep getting run by rogues.

I only agree with that up to a point; there are some circumstances beyond their control but fans can make a difference to the direction and ownership of the club.

And the first thing they ened to do is get themselves organised, get a proper active trust going and so on, as noted by some good people further up this thread, and make their feelings clear. If the messageboards are anything to go by (and I accept, they often aren't) then the majority opinion seems to be a head-in-sand "you're doing a great job Mr Massimo" type thing, and any dissenters are shouted down and accused of not being proper fans.

I really do want Livi to survive and propser, but I want them to do so legitimately, if they're just going to bail themselves out with another creditor stitch-up and stagger onto the next bad business plan from the next bunch of charlatans then the game would be better off without them.

[Livi]

A good few Livvy fans basked in that glory - and some fans were still doing so (more on their own forums) all the way through the Keane debacle and the Flynn takeover. Moreover, the barbed comments about dinosaurs enduring decades of stagnation would suggest that they *did* think they were a bit revolutionary.

You talk shite. Most Livi fans have been realistic in there view of the club.

[Diamonds are Forever]

Err, no they dont! Only one club in the SPL spends more than they earn - Hearts. The rest all have sensible Wages/Turnover ratios.

How did Killie, Rangers, Celtic etc all manage to build up tens of millions of pounds of debt then? Maybe they are now spending within their means, but they didn't in the past (just like Livi), cheating surely?

How many Scottish clubs are in the black then? I don't have a clue but would guess you could count them on one/two hands easily.

By the looks of that post by the Morton fan, their situation is very similar to ours. We are spending far more than we earn, so where do you draw the line, when is it cheating to spend more than you earn and when is it not?

[btb]

Why hold that against Livi? They didn't brag about being the way forward for Scottish clubs, as far as I know. Surely it is Kevin McCarra you should have the dislike of, and justifiably, a certain smugness?

We were also called a small club by PF round about the time we were trying to get exemption from installing USH at Love St. Maybe I should have let it drop after PF left but what is the point in being a football fan if you can't nurture irrational hatreds?

[H_B]

How did Killie, Rangers, Celtic etc all manage to build up tens of millions of pounds of debt then? Maybe they are now spending within their means, but they didn't in the past (just like Livi), cheating surely?

However these clubs are reducing their debt without having to go into administration to do it, and they weren't spending anything like the percentage of wages/turnover Livi were.

Livingston wrote off huge amounts of this debt they absolutely could never afford by screwing creditors, much like Dundee, who are also cheats.