Jump to content

Livingston - all the threads merged


Recommended Posts

You know what, fair enough. Citations and sources go a long way to making your point more reasonable. I think there's a few unknowns in the mix, didn't Hogarth leave under a cloud with money missing? Nixon when he left, left behind numerous dubious financial instances, like leasing out a coffee machine for about £500 per week or something like that at the club's expense. 

I know Nixon was owed a good sum as well, and that will be getting paid down bit by by, year on year. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ATLIS said:

 I know Nixon was owed a good sum as well, and that will be getting paid down bit by by, year on year. 

Nixon received a reduced, negotiated and fully paid settlement of £185,000. Says so on page 7 of the 20-21 document posted above. 

F3FE14BB-1B38-4928-83CE-7ADABD7A223B.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, mozam76 said:

Nixon received a reduced, negotiated and fully paid settlement of £185,000. Says so on page 7 of the 20-21 document posted above. 

F3FE14BB-1B38-4928-83CE-7ADABD7A223B.png

So the only debt owed by the club is the COVID grant repayment thing then, and the 254k above noted

Edited by ATLIS
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 02/06/2023 at 21:27, Roger the cabin boy said:

1)"The club have been making a loss for many years "

I have to contradict you. According to companies house and what has been made publicly available by the club , the last time Livingston FC made a loss was in 2017, when we were in League 1.

  • Profitable June 2017 -June 2018 (see attached companies house document, page 5) see turnover gross profit == £353,257.
  • The message from the Chairman on the 2018-2019 annual accounts (https://livingstonfc.co.uk/message-from-the-chairman-2/), more profit. This is also the last message from the Chairman (dated April 2020), on anything at all. Prior to the most recent accounts, this was the last time any mention has been made of company accounts on the website.
  • 2019-2020 and 2020-2021: Here's where it takes a savvy mind to look through what has been supplied by the club, and decipher that things are still good. 

2)"Martindale has come out and explained that VAR took a big dent out of the budget."

Everything is relative, but by saying 'dent' - it is a small dent. The cost for Livingston lies at 80,000 pounds according to the SFAs sliding rule (source BBC, screenshot attached, link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60987568). As you can see from the attachment, cost varies on league position. 

3) "We've set up a youth academy, a women's team"

a) women's team: At worst the women's team is self funded - if there is any cost to the club it will be nominal. On the SFA website (link: https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/8054/accelerate-our-game-pdf.pdf), a 5 year plan published in 2021 shows a combined effort from the SFA and UEFA to promote and encourage investment in Scottish Women's football, If there wasn't government funding to support SPL women's teams, I'd be very shocked. If there were more detailed accounts posted on companies house for Livi FC, perhaps we might have a better idea.

b) youth academy  It is a well publicised fact that all premier league clubs, out with Rangers and Celtic, receive UEFA solidarity funding to cover if not all, certainly the majority of the cost, link:  https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/0258-0f8e7356606e-623079a4c111-1000--uefa-solidarity-payments-how-they-work/

 

quote from the link above:

"Solidarity payments are distributed through national associations to clubs to invest in their youth development programmes and/or local community schemes."

Youth academy washes its face essentially, there is so much funding from the SFA granted by UEFA that it should cost Livingston football club next to nothing.

 

4)"Substantial work on the stadium"

I'd love to hear what substantial work has been done to the stadium that has been for the benefit of us fans...

5)"All the while bringing in a higher quality of player in the past 5 years"

As for this point, I find that difficult for you to substantiate given the league position for this year, however, better quality of player hasn't resulted in higher wage bills from players - this comes from Martindale himself (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/livingston-boss-david-martindale-lions-29096707) who stated that the playing budget was 1.3 million pounds out of 1.7 million received via prize money from the SPFL... Therefore, by my quick calcs we have a 400k surplus.

 

"Can I ask where you think the club are pissing away money and what you think they should do differently? " 

We've gone from record profits,  to a couple more years of good finances (during COVID)... then out of nowhere nose-dive to a loss of 800K? With the points I've argued above, contrary to what you claim, Livingston FC have had more help than we've been led to believe... That tells me they're pissing money away somewhere. Moreover, to make matters worse, in one of the worst filings in the club's history, the board has decided NOT to include a full breakdown of profit and loss to let us worried fans see where the money is going - what are they hiding? Perhaps this is why Wilson (and Ward) is leaving before the proverbial hits the fan, and I'll quote Martindale - "Wilson and Ward are in charge of the finances" 

These boys can piss away for Scotland... Please refer to the attachment 2020-21.pdf (page 10 item 16), or the screenshot titled "mates_rates" 

Quote:  "included within other debtors is an interest free loan of £141,214 (2021: £nil) made to a member of key management personnel."

We all know who that was for... Interesting that during this period, the club came to us fans, cap in hand, and asked us to pay into a fighting fund - essentially to keep the club going. 

 

Finally, so much for Saint Robert , and for that matter Saint John- these two individuals, as the board, signed off a 6 million penny-shares sale without any pre-emption rights: meaning that every shareholder has their stock reduced to a hundredth of its original value, and they DO NOT get access to the penny shares (whilst at the same time, the club sell them for a pound at the front desk to anybody without knowledge of this resolution) - they get everything, we get nothing... No wonder they're interdicted. For those who wish to know more about this COMMUNITY SCANDAL, just ask John!

Some community club we have here.

This is not a personal attack, all I want is transparency from our board - they are hiding something.

The facts speak for themselves here. 

 

 

VAR cost.png

mates_rates.png

companies_house_document.pdf 260.72 kB · 1 download 2020-21.pdf 242.44 kB · 2 downloads

I think you're down playing/ignoring what 3 seasons of having covid lockdown restrictions affecting our finances has done. This season is still affected by last season's finances having part of it played with restricted crowds  due to social distancing and red zones, and even next season is now affected due to us struggling still, trying to recover from it, and reducing our playing budget.

 

image.thumb.png.ddb2064a8ebbddd21998d822d098e266.png

That was season 2021/22 and started with us having red zones, being seated dotted around the stadium sitting in different stands, under social distancing rules. It was season 2019/20 the 8 games to go shut down happened, then a full season with no fans, all of which caused us to take a massive hit on our finances, and take the Govt loan that we'll have as part of our debt. 

The shares the fans took out and the money put into helping the club survive covid seems to have annoyed you, nobody went into those looking to make money for themselves, it was to help the club out. They weren't some dodgy scheme to make John Ward a few bob, as you are alluding to.

Quote

4)"Substantial work on the stadium"

I'd love to hear what substantial work has been done to the stadium that has been for the benefit of us fans...

Dunno if having new floodlights, showers, media room, press area in the stand, maintenance around the stadium etc benefitted the fans, but it has still all cost money, and a lot has been done around the stadium bringing it up to a decent standard for top flight football. It was pretty run down after years in the lower league where most of it wasn't being used.

You should direct your concerns on the FB page to Callum Carson though, i'm sure he'd be able to set your mind at peace better than on here, he knows as much as anyone outside of those running the club about the goings on at Livi, he's pretty well informed. And being an Airdrie fan, has an impartial view on Livi.

Doesn't look anything other than covid related debt still affecting us though.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

“I’ve taken on this role in spite of the legacy issues ongoing behind the scenes, which predate my involvement at the club, and I will review my situation if and when needed."

The alleged fraud cause with Neil Hogarth? Interesting that line was included. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I notice Roger and his alter ego(s) have failed to post anything so far.

Those, sorry, that cnut can get tae.

 

Clearly it's someone with some vandetta against the club, using multiple aliases to stir shit up.

Every week. Until proved wrong and then shut up until they have more nonsense shite to spout.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks like Partick Th are ripe for the picking getting players from them, Tiffoney away to Dundee. A few years since Lawless played in the top flight, but still looked decent in the play offs against County, prob not got 90 mins in him but still could prob do a decent job as a squad player. Jack McMillan was always a good defender, but looks like he's improved going forward, with Devlin away we could do with another RB signed on top of Brandon, and McMillan is a player that we know was good enough, and now has 5 added years experience playing first team football, albeit in a lower league.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Saw on STV news earlier that Thistle are in financial difficulties. Asking fans groups to help them out.So while some of those players mentioned would be of use to us,I'm sceptical as to wether we could afford them,not to mention the fact that other clubs no doubt have been watching them and would be in a position to offer better terms than we could.Hard times all around at the moment i fear.🤷‍♂️.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, hoobahabba said:

I would def take McMillan back. Ideal replacement for Devlin. Would he want to come back though?

Reckon we could persuade him if he was getting the 1st choice RB/RWB position, handy that he can play on the left side too. Was a great utility player but left because he wanted first team football, and has had 5 years at Partick Thistle, where he looks to have improved in the attacking side of things. With Devlin away i think he could be signed as our first choice FB, and Brandon would be able to play in midfield or on the wing, as well as cover for McMillan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Reckon we could persuade him if he was getting the 1st choice RB/RWB position, handy that he can play on the left side too. Was a great utility player but left because he wanted first team football, and has had 5 years at Partick Thistle, where he looks to have improved in the attacking side of things. With Devlin away i think he could be signed as our first choice FB, and Brandon would be able to play in midfield or on the wing, as well as cover for McMillan.

Five years is a bit of a stretch - he had 13 games on loan to them in 2019 followed by 36 game since signing for them in 2022. He had 59 games for us although admittedly many of those was from the bench.

The problem with a utility player is that most of their appearances will be from the bench depending on where the demand develops. He is a good player but I'm not sure he's better than what we have already meaning hes unlikely to be first choice unless we have injuries/suspensions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Durnford said:

Five years is a bit of a stretch - he had 13 games on loan to them in 2019 followed by 36 game since signing for them in 2022. He had 59 games for us although admittedly many of those was from the bench.

The problem with a utility player is that most of their appearances will be from the bench depending on where the demand develops. He is a good player but I'm not sure he's better than what we have already meaning hes unlikely to be first choice unless we have injuries/suspensions.

Yeah got mixed up with all the comings and going between players, with Penrice coming to us for Tiffoney, and Lawless leaving them to come to Livi, then back again, and has been at Partick for 2 or 3 seasons. Still good for his development getting first team football, and looks like having improved going forward.  

 

I actually thought he was good enough to be getting games with us a few seasons back but Devlin was never getting dropped, and too many left sided players were ahead of him too, so only got used as a utility player. Never seen him having a bad game when he was playing for us though. I think he'll have benefitted from playing at Partick too, and will be better than Brandon on the right.

Edited by LIVIFOREVER
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Durnford said:

Five years is a bit of a stretch - he had 13 games on loan to them in 2019 followed by 36 game since signing for them in 2022. He had 59 games for us although admittedly many of those was from the bench.

The problem with a utility player is that most of their appearances will be from the bench depending on where the demand develops. He is a good player but I'm not sure he's better than what we have already meaning hes unlikely to be first choice unless we have injuries/suspensions.

We don't know much about Brandon tbh and he seems injury prone. McMillan just won player of the season at Partick and even when he played with us before, I thought he was a good RB. In my view, his utility is a bonus but would want him as our first choice right back to replace Devlin. Would definitely enhance the squad imo but Martindale might see it differently. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, hoobahabba said:

We don't know much about Brandon tbh and he seems injury prone. McMillan just won player of the season at Partick and even when he played with us before, I thought he was a good RB. In my view, his utility is a bonus but would want him as our first choice right back to replace Devlin. Would definitely enhance the squad imo but Martindale might see it differently. 

Not sure I'd describe Brandon as injury prone but maybe that's the perception. For me someone injury prone would be getting injured every two or three games whereas Brandon had one bad, almost career ending, injury and aggravated it when trying to come back too early.

For me that's more unlucky; the real test will be if he can avoid aggravating to old injury again and yet still play at 100%.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Yeah got mixed up with all the comings and going between players, with Penrice coming to us for Tiffoney, and Lawless leaving them to come to Livi, then back again, and has been at Partick for 2 or 3 seasons. Still good for his development getting first team football, and looks like having improved going forward.  

 

I actually thought he was good enough to be getting games with us a few seasons back but Devlin was never getting dropped, and too many left sided players were ahead of him too, so only got used as a utility player. Never seen him having a bad game when he was playing for us though. I think he'll have benefitted from playing at Partick too, and will be better than Brandon on the right.

Don't get me wrong; I always like McMillan; he was a Pittman type player in defence; even when he wasn't having a great game he never gave up trying.

You knew what you were getting with Jack; no silly tantrums; no games just a good honest defender. The only bad game I can really recall him having was, I think, against Falkirk, which I think was one of Matija Sarkic's first games for us (but I could be wrong). I recall him leaving a huge gap at the right post which the opposition exploited. I says something that this is the only "bad" performance I can highlight and that was more of a lapse which hopefully experience will ironed out.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...