Livingston - all the threads merged

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 hours ago, JD and associates said:

Resign, retire - in employment it’s essentially considered the same thing. By stepping back from his club duties he has essentially resigned from his post. What Roger was getting at has turned out to be spot on, albeit he was given a hard time for breaking the news.

And other directors leaving is nonsense? How do you know? Are you privy to something we’re not? I happen to have heard from a reliable source that Ward will be leaving the club again this summer. I wouldn’t right these posts from Roger off I reckon he’s spot on you know. 

He was given a hard time for being a dick about how he said it, him coming on to gloat is adding to being a dick, even his gloating is dickish. Like he's fucking loving it if everything that has been good for Livi is falling apart. Yeah what a hero he is.

 

Oh and if the other rumour that he heard is true and John Ward steps back from being a CEO, so what, he did that already and came back again, he's other things of his own to take care of that needed his time other than Livi, means nothing. I'm sure he'd love to be proven right though and joyously tell us with a wee laughing smiley if things turned sour at Livi.

Edited June 1, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[mozam76]

9 hours ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

I did not say criminal court. Court of Session is Commercial court. Also, it is not an accusation it is irrefutable fact that the (ex) chairman and current CEO are interdicted there.

Again, for some balance, the Court of Session isn’t just “Commercial” Court. Civil proceedings are heard there. Personal injury claims are heard there. 
 

 

10 hours ago, JD and associates said:

Resign, retire - in employment it’s essentially considered the same thing. 

Absolute nonsense. 

[Roger the cabin boy]

1 hour ago, mozam76 said:

Again, for some balance, the Court of Session isn’t just “Commercial” Court. Civil proceedings are heard there. Personal injury claims are heard there. 
 

 

Absolute nonsense. 

The point still stands: John Ward and Robert Wilson are interdicted at the Edinburgh Court of Session 

 

10 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

He was given a hard time for being a dick about how he said it, him coming on to gloat is adding to being a dick, even his gloating is dickish. Like he's fucking loving it if everything that has been good for Livi is falling apart. Yeah what a hero he is.

 

Oh and if the other rumour that he heard is true and John Ward steps back from being a CEO, so what, he did that already and came back again, he's other things of his own to take care of that needed his time other than Livi, means nothing. I'm sure he'd love to be proven right though and joyously tell us with a wee laughing smiley if things turned sour at Livi.

Nope, I am not “loving it”, watching the downward trajectory of my team. What’s happened to our club in the hands of these people has been disastrous, disappointing, and scary. I genuinely think we’ll be facing relegation next season because of the poor financial choices made upstairs. 

Concerning the latter, I am aware that I still haven’t responded to DavideHernandez(…)‘s post from earlier (breaking down the finances etc.) which definitely deserves a reply, and I will come back to that later tonight. So anyone else who has the itch to repeat to me that which has already been so eloquently put - feel no need, David will get his response.

Finally, I don’t think it’d matter if I came onto this forum as the most polite person in the world - some people just don’t want to hear bad news.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Roger the cabin boy
Grammar etc, wrong poster replied to in *original* opening sentence

[mozam76]

16 minutes ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

The point still stands, you misquoted me, and to hit it home again: John Ward and Robert Wilson are interdicted at the Edinburgh Court of Session 

 

Nope, I am not “loving it”, watching the downward trajectory of my team. What’s happened to our club in the hands of these people has been disastrous, disappointing, and scary. I genuinely think we’ll be facing relegation next season because of the poor financial choices made upstairs. 

Concerning the latter, I am aware that I still haven’t responded to DavideHernandez(…)‘s post from earlier (breaking down the finances etc.) which definitely deserves a reply, and I will come back to that later tonight. So anyone else who has the itch to repeat to me that which has already been so eloquently put - feel no need, David will get his response.

Finally, I don’t think it’d matter if I came onto this forum as the most polite person in the world - some people just don’t want to hear bad news.

I'd be grateful if you could point out where I've misquoted you. 

[Roger the cabin boy]

7 minutes ago, mozam76 said:

I'd be grateful if you could point out where I've misquoted you. 

Wires crossed, not you someone else. I  stand corrected.

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

The point still stands: John Ward and Robert Wilson are interdicted at the Edinburgh Court of Session 

 

Nope, I am not “loving it”, watching the downward trajectory of my team. What’s happened to our club in the hands of these people has been disastrous, disappointing, and scary. I genuinely think we’ll be facing relegation next season because of the poor financial choices made upstairs. 

Concerning the latter, I am aware that I still haven’t responded to DavideHernandez(…)‘s post from earlier (breaking down the finances etc.) which definitely deserves a reply, and I will come back to that later tonight. So anyone else who has the itch to repeat to me that which has already been so eloquently put - feel no need, David will get his response.

Finally, I don’t think it’d matter if I came onto this forum as the most polite person in the world - some people just don’t want to hear bad news.

From where we were before the current regime took over, to where we are now is just incredible, the state the club was in, on and off the pitch is night and day, really don't get your negativity about how they've handled their stewardship. John Ward has done a lot of good work getting the stadium up to the standard it is now too, it was falling to a state of disrepair in the lower league, and needed a hell of a lot of work done. 

There is no doubt we'll be relegated at some point, and yep, next season is looking like a tough one, but so far we've had 5 seasons in the top flight and none have been fighting relegation, back to back top 6 finishes and a cup final is pretty amazing for us. 

Surely you must see Covid took its toll on our financial position, we were just about breaking even after years of being heavily in debt to director loans, Covid knocked us back massively and those back to back top 6 finishes landed smack in the middle of lockdown restrictions, where instead of us making a mint from having big pay days, we struggled getting by with no gate money, or hospos, commercial deals etc.

Anyway, one of the reasons it'll be tough next season is us cutting our budget, something contradictory to the picture you paint about the running of the club.

Last point, is it bad news, you tried to tell it as if it was, and something scandalous was going on, with things starting to unravel, if you have facts backing that up, it would be good to hear them. John Ward has stepped back/away from the club before, and we've seen some board members coming and going, but it didn't affect us too much, is this any different? 

[Roger the cabin boy]

29 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

From where we were before the current regime took over, to where we are now is just incredible, the state the club was in, on and off the pitch is night and day, really don't get your negativity about how they've handled their stewardship. John Ward has done a lot of good work getting the stadium up to the standard it is now too, it was falling to a state of disrepair in the lower league, and needed a hell of a lot of work done. 

There is no doubt we'll be relegated at some point, and yep, next season is looking like a tough one, but so far we've had 5 seasons in the top flight and none have been fighting relegation, back to back top 6 finishes and a cup final is pretty amazing for us. 

Surely you must see Covid took its toll on our financial position, we were just about breaking even after years of being heavily in debt to director loans, Covid knocked us back massively and those back to back top 6 finishes landed smack in the middle of lockdown restrictions, where instead of us making a mint from having big pay days, we struggled getting by with no gate money, or hospos, commercial deals etc.

Anyway, one of the reasons it'll be tough next season is us cutting our budget, something contradictory to the picture you paint about the running of the club.

Last point, is it bad news, you tried to tell it as if it was, and something scandalous was going on, with things starting to unravel, if you have facts backing that up, it would be good to hear them. John Ward has stepped back/away from the club before, and we've seen some board members coming and going, but it didn't affect us too much, is this any different? 

All of the above, bar the excellent John Ward PR (I hope he’s paying you), will be in my response to Dave’s post from the other evening. 
 

Appreciate the reply.

[LIVIFOREVER]

Lyndon Dykes not signing an extension at QPR is looking like he'll be sold before his final year runs out. Sevco being tipped as a hot favourite with Beale wanting to sign him. We wont get as much money from them signing him, as we were hoping for from an EPL club, but a few hundred grand from the sell on is better than a kick in the stones. Hopefully Nouble gets the 1M we're looking for too, and Schwake makes us 250K. That should give us enough to wipe our debt and a bit left over to increase our playing budget. Fingers crossed it all happens before the new season kicks off.

[mozam76]

1 hour ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

Nope, I am not “loving it”, watching the downward trajectory of my team. What’s happened to our club in the hands of these people has been disastrous, disappointing, and scary. I genuinely think we’ll be facing relegation next season because of the poor financial choices made upstairs. 

I'd appreciate it if you could give me a wee bit of context here. In what way can the last few seasons be described as disastrous, disappointing and scary?

52 minutes ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

All of the above, bar the excellent John Ward PR (I hope he’s paying you), will be in my response to Dave’s post from the other evening. 
 

Appreciate the reply.

I'm genuinely looking forward to reading this. See the bit about John Ward though? It's pathetic, and probably beneath you. All you're doing is cultivating a narrative that you have an agenda against him and or others involved in the running of the club.  

[Roger the cabin boy]

48 minutes ago, mozam76 said:

 

I'm genuinely looking forward to reading this. 

Don’t expect War and Peace, it’ll be brief because that’s all it needs to be. 
 

speak later, stay tuned, and keep projecting. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Lyndon Dykes not signing an extension at QPR is looking like he'll be sold before his final year runs out. Sevco being tipped as a hot favourite with Beale wanting to sign him. We wont get as much money from them signing him, as we were hoping for from an EPL club, but a few hundred grand from the sell on is better than a kick in the stones. Hopefully Nouble gets the 1M we're looking for too, and Schwake makes us 250K. That should give us enough to wipe our debt and a bit left over to increase our playing budget. Fingers crossed it all happens before the new season kicks off.

Wiith Fitzwater it went from reported interest by top English clubs to being unable to shift him at all and an off form player seeing out his contract then leaving for free. So we should be hopeful but not expectant with Nouble. Getting anywhere near that target price will be great business.

[LIVIFOREVER]

6 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

Wiith Fitzwater it went from reported interest by top English clubs to being unable to shift him at all and an off form player seeing out his contract then leaving for free. So we should be hopeful but not expectant with Nouble. Getting anywhere near that target price will be great business.

I never really bought the Fitzwater story, and didn't ever think we'd get anything for him, Nouble though, would think we'll get money for him, whether it'll be a million is another story, can but hope though. They pay silly money for players in England, even pretty average ones.

[LIVIFOREVER]

45 minutes ago, Roger the cabin boy said:

Don’t expect War and Peace, it’ll be brief because that’s all it needs to be. 
 

speak later, stay tuned, and keep projecting. 

Better be good after the big build up.

 

[LIVIFOREVER]

[Roger the cabin boy]

On 31/05/2023 at 23:32, DavideFernandezLoveChild said:

You’ve legitimate concerns about finances and running of the club, fine. But the way to engage fans in those conversations isnae ‘Rumour mill around Berwick is such-an-such’. Or I’ve heard fae my uncles, neighbour’s cousin that John Ward is considering leaving, is it? 
 

But let’s actually look at some of your concerns. The club have been making a loss for many years. Martindale has come out and explained that VAR took a big dent out of the budget. We’ve set up a youth academy, a women’s team, done substantial work on the stadium all the while bringing in a higher quality of player in the past 5 years. Our four main revenue streams are fans (increased YoY attendance figures and increase ST holders). Prize money (disappointing this year with 8th all things considered and potential for a Hampden cup appearance squandered). Player sales (Dykes and not much else - but realistically only a handful of clubs get players sales). Commercial deals (TV revenue has increased although still disappointing and can’t speak much on commercial deals but we seem to have a lot more partners that 5 years ago)
 

The area they can have more control over, the fans has seen far more engagement in the community, free tickets, greater social media presence all of which will pay off in the long run as long as we maintain top flight football. This can be seen in the ST sales from last year and increased attendances. It won’t change overnight. 
 

Can I ask where you think the club are pissing away money and what you think they should do differently?  

1)"The club have been making a loss for many years "

I have to contradict you. According to companies house and what has been made publicly available by the club , the last time Livingston FC made a loss was in 2017, when we were in League 1.

• Profitable June 2017 -June 2018 (see attached companies house document, page 5) see turnover gross profit == £353,257.
• The message from the Chairman on the 2018-2019 annual accounts (https://livingstonfc.co.uk/message-from-the-chairman-2/), more profit. This is also the last message from the Chairman (dated April 2020), on anything at all. Prior to the most recent accounts, this was the last time any mention has been made of company accounts on the website.
• 2019-2020 and 2020-2021: Here's where it takes a savvy mind to look through what has been supplied by the club, and decipher that things are still good. 

2)"Martindale has come out and explained that VAR took a big dent out of the budget."

Everything is relative, but by saying 'dent' - it is a small dent. The cost for Livingston lies at 80,000 pounds according to the SFAs sliding rule (source BBC, screenshot attached, link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60987568). As you can see from the attachment, cost varies on league position. 

3) "We've set up a youth academy, a women's team"

a) women's team: At worst the women's team is self funded - if there is any cost to the club it will be nominal. On the SFA website (link: https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/8054/accelerate-our-game-pdf.pdf), a 5 year plan published in 2021 shows a combined effort from the SFA and UEFA to promote and encourage investment in Scottish Women's football, If there wasn't government funding to support SPL women's teams, I'd be very shocked. If there were more detailed accounts posted on companies house for Livi FC, perhaps we might have a better idea.

b) youth academy :  It is a well publicised fact that all premier league clubs, out with Rangers and Celtic, receive UEFA solidarity funding to cover if not all, certainly the majority of the cost, link:  https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/0258-0f8e7356606e-623079a4c111-1000--uefa-solidarity-payments-how-they-work/

 

quote from the link above:

"Solidarity payments are distributed through national associations to clubs to invest in their youth development programmes and/or local community schemes."

Youth academy washes its face essentially, there is so much funding from the SFA granted by UEFA that it should cost Livingston football club next to nothing.

 

4)"Substantial work on the stadium"

I'd love to hear what substantial work has been done to the stadium that has been for the benefit of us fans...

5)"All the while bringing in a higher quality of player in the past 5 years"

As for this point, I find that difficult for you to substantiate given the league position for this year, however, better quality of player hasn't resulted in higher wage bills from players - this comes from Martindale himself (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/livingston-boss-david-martindale-lions-29096707) who stated that the playing budget was 1.3 million pounds out of 1.7 million received via prize money from the SPFL... Therefore, by my quick calcs we have a 400k surplus.

 

"Can I ask where you think the club are pissing away money and what you think they should do differently? " 

We've gone from record profits,  to a couple more years of good finances (during COVID)... then out of nowhere nose-dive to a loss of 800K? With the points I've argued above, contrary to what you claim, Livingston FC have had more help than we've been led to believe... That tells me they're pissing money away somewhere. Moreover, to make matters worse, in one of the worst filings in the club's history, the board has decided NOT to include a full breakdown of profit and loss to let us worried fans see where the money is going - what are they hiding? Perhaps this is why Wilson (and Ward) is leaving before the proverbial hits the fan, and I'll quote Martindale - "Wilson and Ward are in charge of the finances" 

These boys can piss away for Scotland... Please refer to the attachment 2020-21.pdf (page 10 item 16), or the screenshot titled "mates_rates" 

Quote:  "included within other debtors is an interest free loan of £141,214 (2021: £nil) made to a member of key management personnel."

We all know who that was for... Interesting that during this period, the club came to us fans, cap in hand, and asked us to pay into a fighting fund - essentially to keep the club going. 

 

Finally, so much for Saint Robert , and for that matter Saint John- these two individuals, as the board, signed off a 6 million penny-shares sale without any pre-emption rights: meaning that every shareholder has their stock reduced to a hundredth of its original value, and they DO NOT get access to the penny shares (whilst at the same time, the club sell them for a pound at the front desk to anybody without knowledge of this resolution) - they get everything, we get nothing... No wonder they're interdicted. For those who wish to know more about this COMMUNITY SCANDAL, just ask John!

Some community club we have here.

This is not a personal attack, all I want is transparency from our board - they are hiding something.

The facts speak for themselves here. 

 

 

companies_house_document.pdf 2020-21.pdf

[ATLIS]

You know what, fair enough. Citations and sources go a long way to making your point more reasonable. I think there's a few unknowns in the mix, didn't Hogarth leave under a cloud with money missing? Nixon when he left, left behind numerous dubious financial instances, like leasing out a coffee machine for about £500 per week or something like that at the club's expense. 

I know Nixon was owed a good sum as well, and that will be getting paid down bit by by, year on year. 

[mozam76]

1 hour ago, ATLIS said:

 I know Nixon was owed a good sum as well, and that will be getting paid down bit by by, year on year. 

Nixon received a reduced, negotiated and fully paid settlement of £185,000. Says so on page 7 of the 20-21 document posted above. 

[ATLIS]

1 minute ago, mozam76 said:

Nixon received a reduced, negotiated and fully paid settlement of £185,000. Says so on page 7 of the 20-21 document posted above. 

So the only debt owed by the club is the COVID grant repayment thing then, and the 254k above noted

Edited June 2, 2023 by ATLIS

[ATLIS]

De Lucas called up for international duty. He’ll play against Chile on June 16th 

[LIVIFOREVER]

On 02/06/2023 at 21:27, Roger the cabin boy said:

1)"The club have been making a loss for many years "

I have to contradict you. According to companies house and what has been made publicly available by the club , the last time Livingston FC made a loss was in 2017, when we were in League 1.

• Profitable June 2017 -June 2018 (see attached companies house document, page 5) see turnover gross profit == £353,257.
• The message from the Chairman on the 2018-2019 annual accounts (https://livingstonfc.co.uk/message-from-the-chairman-2/), more profit. This is also the last message from the Chairman (dated April 2020), on anything at all. Prior to the most recent accounts, this was the last time any mention has been made of company accounts on the website.
• 2019-2020 and 2020-2021: Here's where it takes a savvy mind to look through what has been supplied by the club, and decipher that things are still good. 

2)"Martindale has come out and explained that VAR took a big dent out of the budget."

Everything is relative, but by saying 'dent' - it is a small dent. The cost for Livingston lies at 80,000 pounds according to the SFAs sliding rule (source BBC, screenshot attached, link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60987568). As you can see from the attachment, cost varies on league position. 

3) "We've set up a youth academy, a women's team"

a) women's team: At worst the women's team is self funded - if there is any cost to the club it will be nominal. On the SFA website (link: https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/8054/accelerate-our-game-pdf.pdf), a 5 year plan published in 2021 shows a combined effort from the SFA and UEFA to promote and encourage investment in Scottish Women's football, If there wasn't government funding to support SPL women's teams, I'd be very shocked. If there were more detailed accounts posted on companies house for Livi FC, perhaps we might have a better idea.

b) youth academy :  It is a well publicised fact that all premier league clubs, out with Rangers and Celtic, receive UEFA solidarity funding to cover if not all, certainly the majority of the cost, link:  https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/0258-0f8e7356606e-623079a4c111-1000--uefa-solidarity-payments-how-they-work/

 

quote from the link above:

"Solidarity payments are distributed through national associations to clubs to invest in their youth development programmes and/or local community schemes."

Youth academy washes its face essentially, there is so much funding from the SFA granted by UEFA that it should cost Livingston football club next to nothing.

 

4)"Substantial work on the stadium"

I'd love to hear what substantial work has been done to the stadium that has been for the benefit of us fans...

5)"All the while bringing in a higher quality of player in the past 5 years"

As for this point, I find that difficult for you to substantiate given the league position for this year, however, better quality of player hasn't resulted in higher wage bills from players - this comes from Martindale himself (https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/livingston-boss-david-martindale-lions-29096707) who stated that the playing budget was 1.3 million pounds out of 1.7 million received via prize money from the SPFL... Therefore, by my quick calcs we have a 400k surplus.

 

"Can I ask where you think the club are pissing away money and what you think they should do differently? " 

We've gone from record profits,  to a couple more years of good finances (during COVID)... then out of nowhere nose-dive to a loss of 800K? With the points I've argued above, contrary to what you claim, Livingston FC have had more help than we've been led to believe... That tells me they're pissing money away somewhere. Moreover, to make matters worse, in one of the worst filings in the club's history, the board has decided NOT to include a full breakdown of profit and loss to let us worried fans see where the money is going - what are they hiding? Perhaps this is why Wilson (and Ward) is leaving before the proverbial hits the fan, and I'll quote Martindale - "Wilson and Ward are in charge of the finances" 

These boys can piss away for Scotland... Please refer to the attachment 2020-21.pdf (page 10 item 16), or the screenshot titled "mates_rates" 

Quote:  "included within other debtors is an interest free loan of £141,214 (2021: £nil) made to a member of key management personnel."

We all know who that was for... Interesting that during this period, the club came to us fans, cap in hand, and asked us to pay into a fighting fund - essentially to keep the club going. 

 

Finally, so much for Saint Robert , and for that matter Saint John- these two individuals, as the board, signed off a 6 million penny-shares sale without any pre-emption rights: meaning that every shareholder has their stock reduced to a hundredth of its original value, and they DO NOT get access to the penny shares (whilst at the same time, the club sell them for a pound at the front desk to anybody without knowledge of this resolution) - they get everything, we get nothing... No wonder they're interdicted. For those who wish to know more about this COMMUNITY SCANDAL, just ask John!

Some community club we have here.

This is not a personal attack, all I want is transparency from our board - they are hiding something.

The facts speak for themselves here. 

 

 

companies_house_document.pdf 260.72 kB · 1 download 2020-21.pdf 242.44 kB · 2 downloads

I think you're down playing/ignoring what 3 seasons of having covid lockdown restrictions affecting our finances has done. This season is still affected by last season's finances having part of it played with restricted crowds  due to social distancing and red zones, and even next season is now affected due to us struggling still, trying to recover from it, and reducing our playing budget.

 

That was season 2021/22 and started with us having red zones, being seated dotted around the stadium sitting in different stands, under social distancing rules. It was season 2019/20 the 8 games to go shut down happened, then a full season with no fans, all of which caused us to take a massive hit on our finances, and take the Govt loan that we'll have as part of our debt. 

The shares the fans took out and the money put into helping the club survive covid seems to have annoyed you, nobody went into those looking to make money for themselves, it was to help the club out. They weren't some dodgy scheme to make John Ward a few bob, as you are alluding to.

Quote

4)"Substantial work on the stadium"

I'd love to hear what substantial work has been done to the stadium that has been for the benefit of us fans...

Dunno if having new floodlights, showers, media room, press area in the stand, maintenance around the stadium etc benefitted the fans, but it has still all cost money, and a lot has been done around the stadium bringing it up to a decent standard for top flight football. It was pretty run down after years in the lower league where most of it wasn't being used.

You should direct your concerns on the FB page to Callum Carson though, i'm sure he'd be able to set your mind at peace better than on here, he knows as much as anyone outside of those running the club about the goings on at Livi, he's pretty well informed. And being an Airdrie fan, has an impartial view on Livi.

Doesn't look anything other than covid related debt still affecting us though.