Livingston - all the threads merged

[Dav nan Gael]

Sooner or later we will go down, we're by far the smallest club in the Premiership. 

As we all know,we're a Championship sized club.

Enjoy being in the top league  while we can .

[The Wrong Car]

Aye, I can definitely see Devlin heading to Motherwell. To be fair, he joined us without Premiership experience and is now a fairly solid premiership defender at 29 so I don't think he can be blamed for cashing in. 

A good player and captain, but he's been fairly average this season. If him, Shinnie and Holt leave that's a fair bit of experience going, and no clear captaincy options. 

[EdinburghLivi]

1 hour ago, The Wrong Car said:

A good player and captain, but he's been fairly average this season. If him, Shinnie and Holt leave that's a fair bit of experience going, and no clear captaincy options. 

I think we've been missing experience and enough calm heads on the park since Bartley stopped playing. I've said a number of times that I'd be looking at Scott Arfield but I'm not certain now that Kelly looks so good behind the strikers. 

I hope Martindale spends his budget wisely and brings in players who will clearly fit a system he wants to play. It has always felt like Shinnie has been shoehorned into a position that isn't his own.

[LIVIFOREVER]

Happy 14th of March everyone.

 

[Cptn Hooch]

2 hours ago, The Wrong Car said:

A good player and captain, but he's been fairly average this season. If him, Shinnie and Holt leave that's a fair bit of experience going, and no clear captaincy options. 

Morgan Boyes is the Wales U-21 captain. I'd like to see us keep at least one of Holt or Devlin though

[The Wrong Car]

1 hour ago, Cptn Hooch said:

Morgan Boyes is the Wales U-21 captain. I'd like to see us keep at least one of Holt or Devlin though

The only concern is we probably don't have a guaranteed starter in the team, minus Anderson, Nouble or George

2 hours ago, EdinburghLivi said:

I think we've been missing experience and enough calm heads on the park since Bartley stopped playing. I've said a number of times that I'd be looking at Scott Arfield but I'm not certain now that Kelly looks so good behind the strikers. 

I hope Martindale spends his budget wisely and brings in players who will clearly fit a system he wants to play. It has always felt like Shinnie has been shoehorned into a position that isn't his own.

Agreed, the amount of times we struggle to break up play has been a major issue. Holt is decent at it, but you can see it's not his or Shinnie's natural game

[LiviLion]

24 minutes ago, The Wrong Car said:

The only concern is we probably don't have a guaranteed starter in the team, minus Anderson, Nouble or George

Yep, you're probably looking at Pittman if you want someone who's experienced and/or been at the club a while, and likely to play most games; but he doesn't seem the type to be hounding and organising his teammates. Sean Kelly might get a good amount of game time if he's going to end up replacing Holt. If Parkes grows functioning limbs and we don't bring in any better defenders he'd also be a shout.

[Cptn Hooch]

3 hours ago, The Wrong Car said:

The only concern is we probably don't have a guaranteed starter in the team, minus Anderson, Nouble or George

Agreed, the amount of times we struggle to break up play has been a major issue. Holt is decent at it, but you can see it's not his or Shinnie's natural game

 

2 hours ago, LiviLion said:

Yep, you're probably looking at Pittman if you want someone who's experienced and/or been at the club a while, and likely to play most games; but he doesn't seem the type to be hounding and organising his teammates. Sean Kelly might get a good amount of game time if he's going to end up replacing Holt. If Parkes grows functioning limbs and we don't bring in any better defenders he'd also be a shout.

I think next season's CB pairing will be Boyes and De Lucas...Davie has spoken about the need for a left footed CB and Boyes gives us that. Yeah he's young and a bit raw but I think he's our best CB for form this season. Pittman was offered the captaincy when Holt came to the club apparently and turned it down. 

We could be looking at a very young starting 11 next season along the lines of

 

Shamal

Brandon DeLucas Boyes Penrice

Se Kelly Pittman

Bradley St Kelly Nouble

Anderson 

 

Our lineup v Dundee United had an average age of 27.6 but the lineup above averages around 25.1

Edited March 14, 2023 by Cptn Hooch

[Carol Anne]

10 hours ago, Dav nan Gael said:

Sooner or later we will go down, we're by far the smallest club in the Premiership. 

As we all know,we're a Championship sized club.

Enjoy being in the top league  while we can .

Think positive

[Troy.1995]

Think most of us would like to think positive. But we've got to be realistic as well.Hopefully we'll continue to punch above our weight as we've done for years.The possibility of losing players in the summer coupled with our small fanbase will make it difficult next season to genuinely compete at the top table imo.Maybe any new players who come in will help keep us in the division. Suspect tough times ahead..

[ATLIS]

13 hours ago, Cptn Hooch said:

 

I think next season's CB pairing will be Boyes and De Lucas...Davie has spoken about the need for a left footed CB and Boyes gives us that. Yeah he's young and a bit raw but I think he's our best CB for form this season. Pittman was offered the captaincy when Holt came to the club apparently and turned it down. 

We could be looking at a very young starting 11 next season along the lines of

Pretty sure Deas is left footed too is he not?

You'd imagine that next season we're looking like this in terms of squad (if we continue with the 4231)

GK: Shamal/Hamilton

RB: Brandon/(Depth needed)
RCB: Obileye/De Lucas
LCB: Boyes/(Depth needed)
LB: Montano/Penrice

RCM: Pittman/(Depth needed)
LCM: Se. Kelly/Bitsindou

CAM: St. Kelly/(Depth needed)

RW: Bradley/Bahamboula
ST: Anderson/Guthrie/Esma/Hamilton
LW: Nouble/(Depth needed)

I could see Guthrie, Esma, Hamilton being away possibly. Maybe even Bahamboula and Bitsindou as well but that's the extra depth we have that's maybe overlooked. 

If we're going with Martindale's comments on wanting two for each position, our summer window could look something like this:

LCB - Deas deal was apparently very close, hopefully we hear something about it soon

RB - Depends on if Martindale thinks Brandon can step up or not. Out of contract players in a range we'd sign from throws up Reghan Tumilty (Hamilton), Richard Tait (St Mirren), Cammy Kerr (Dundee), Wallace Duffy (Inverness), Ryan Cooney (Morcambe), Elliot Hewitt (Mansfield) or look at loans again but Martindale seems to have turned away from them. 

CM - We probably need two options here if Bitsindou does leave, again out of contract players in the range are: Dylan McGeouch (Forest Green Rovers), worth noting he was on trial with us before signing down there, Kyle Turner (Partick Thistle), Alan Power (Kilmarnock), Jack Byrne (Shamrock Rovers), Liam Kelly (Rochdale), Steven Davis (Rangers), very unlikely and coming off a cruciate rupture, or again the same spiel about loans. I wouldn't be surprised to see Penrice play CM more next season as it's fairly slim pickings. 

CAM - I'd imagine just the one spot to compete with Kelly. Scott Arfield (Rangers), David Wotherspoon (St Johnstone), Liam Polworth (Kilmarnock). There doesn't seem to be a lot of options in this spot either to be fair. 

ST - Mainly making this for if we do see Guthrie/Esma/Hamilton leave. JET is available again which I wouldn't be against, and mainly just did this to mention him.

LW - According to Callum Carson Nouble will be away in the summer so really we're needing two here I'd imagine. Jamie Murphy (St Johnstone), Scott Tiffoney (Partick Thistle), can't see that one being likely at all, Matty Kennedy (Aberdeen), Paul McMullan (Dundee), Aiden Connolly (Raith). A few of these in truth I've just thrown in because they can loosely play the position but half of it's either unrealistic or not really their position. 


A majority of all this is unrealistic as I've only really factored in British players and Martindale does tend to find a foreign player here and there but I think this could be the hardest summer for us in terms of finding players and making the wage bill work

 

[LiviLion]

9 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

LCB - Deas deal was apparently very close, hopefully we hear something about it soon

He's being chased by about 3 other Premiership clubs*, I'd be surprised if we got him in. Only chance of it I can see is if we kick on and get a European place, but he'll be able to earn more elsewhere.

 

*Obviously that could be his agent trying to drum up more interest, but even if that's the case you'd expect it to be enough for someone else to come in and nab him

Edited March 15, 2023 by LiviLion

[Troy.1995]

Yeh,agree Atlis.The depth we have at the moment imo are not good enough for the level needed as I've said before to sustain a competitive challenge at the top table.This close season will be crucial for our aspirations to stay in the division never mind the talk about top 6 Europe etc.A few of the players you've mentioned available, yes they have experience but some are coming to the end of their respective careers. Think we need to be carefull in our dealings.Hopefully Davie will address this when the time comes. 

[DavideFernandezLoveChild]

I think one thing that Livingston have over other clubs is the atmosphere in the club always seems to be happy and jovial which I think can't be undervalued. We have always been the lowest budget side since our promotion. We have seen that clubs with bigger fan bases recently that start slow or get bogged down will lead to relegation, regardless of budget. Hibs, Dundee Utd, Hearts, Kilmarnock have all suffered in recent years from this. 

If we get seven-figures in for Nouble, then hopefully we can bolster our wage budget slightly. Plus we have a youth academy now so we could potentially see some of those boys supplementing the back-up roles on fairly cheap wages in comparison to some in the squad. 

Realistically, Davie is an astute manager and business man and is sensible where he makes decisions. There is a strong working relationship with the board and he knows that slow and steady will keep this club ion the Premiership and improve income over time. 

[Durnford]

2 hours ago, Troy.1995 said:

Think most of us would like to think positive. But we've got to be realistic as well.Hopefully we'll continue to punch above our weight as we've done for years.The possibility of losing players in the summer coupled with our small fanbase will make it difficult next season to genuinely compete at the top table imo.Maybe any new players who come in will help keep us in the division. Suspect tough times ahead..

I agree with a lot of what's said here, but I think a lot of what's caused other clubs to drop down in previous years is the standard of management; not just of the team but for the club as a whole. Vision as well should not be underestimated.

Year after year we've ended up ahead of clubs better funded; with better facilities; larger income and support etc. etc.

Punching above our weight is often a term used but its more than that.

Quite often, in my business life, I have liked to use the example of Samuel Pierpont Langley. If you haven't heard of him; he was the real shining star in the Physics and aeronautic world at the turn of the twentieth century. He was a professor of astronomy but also Secretary for the Smithsonian institute.

He spent a lot of time trying to discover the secret of powered flight and, in the late 1890's was given a sum of $70,000 mostly from the US War Department (somewhere in the region of £140,000,000 in today's terms) to basically develop manned flight.

With this money he recruited the best authorities in their field; physics; engineering etc. and  he bought the best equipment.

So why is it so few people have actually heard of Samuel outside the worlds of Physics and Astronomy?

Surely the promise of almost unlimited funds; of access the the best; all the best publicity; not the mention the undoubted pedigree of the man himself; this MUST have meant that he HAD to be successful; right?

Strangely the names most people have heard of, when talking about powered flight, are the Wright brothers. Two brothers who's principle business was a bicycle repair shop; who could only attempt powered flight on their day's off; who, it is said, could only ever attempt four tests on one day as that was the limit of the spares that they could carry on the back of their van out to the Kill Devil Hills in North Carolina.

Surely the outcome was clear; the premier all-stars v's the eager upstarts? No contact. Well not until December 1903 and the rest, as they say, is history.

The thing though that is rarely published is what Samuel did after the news broke that the Wright brothers had beaten him to it. Rather than taking their idea and trying to improve upon it or pressing ahead with renewed vigour; he simply gave up. Within less than three years he was dead.

Personally I would hope that we try to emulate the Wright brother; not Samuel Peirpont Langley.

 

[LIVIFOREVER]

It's basically a leap of faith believing Martindale will unearth a few gems every season, Dykes, Guthrie (CB), Dolly, JET, Fitzwater, St Kelly, Bradley, Bahamboula, Forrest, Nouble, Shamal, etc etc. Yeah he's brought in a few duds too, but we've always had enough quality within the good players to do the job for us, and stay well away from the bottom 2 places.

He isn't the type of guy that waits till the season is over to then plan for the next one either, he'll be well aware who is going and who is staying, and what players are out there for us to try and bring in. I'm really not worried about losing players, yeah it'll be a pisser not having Nouble, but we've had the same with Dykes, and survived quite comfortably. I'd be far more concerned if we lost Martindale, him and the backroom staff are the ones that have kept the continuity going, and made the club an enjoyable workplace, as well as instilling the hard graft and team work mentality.

Edited March 15, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[Durnford]

3 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

It's basically a leap of faith believing Martindale with unearth a few gems every season, Dykes, Guthrie (CB), Dolly, JET, Fitzwater, St Kelly, Bradley, Bahamboula, Forrest, Nouble, Shamal, etc etc. Yeah he's brought in a few duds too, but we've always had enough quality within the good players to do the job for us, and stay well away from the bottom 2 places.

He isn't the type of guy that waits till the season is over to then plan for the next one either, he'll be well aware who is going and who is staying, and what players are out there for us to try and bring in. I'm really not worried about losing players, yeah it'll be a pisser not having Nouble, but we've had the same with Dykes, and survived quite comfortably. I'd be far more concerned if we lost Martindale, him and the backroom staff are the ones that have kept the continuity going, and made the club an enjoyable workplace, as well as instilling the hard graft and team work mentality.

The potential disappointments would include Kouider-Aïssa and Kabai who, on paper at least, should be doing better than he is.

Also some that people originally wrote off as duds, such as Sean Kelly, has started to come into his own once being played in the correct position.

It is however regretful that, of the names you've listed, for those that have left; only two of them did we end up getting any money for at all.

I suppose its always a balancing act over length of contract for an unknown quantity.

 

 

[LIVIFOREVER]

I take it it's Berra's coaching influence that has us playing a high line, it hasn't really been working for us that well.

A few times i've been convinced through balls were offside, and the officials got it wrong, like the ICT goal over the top that cost us dearly, and the one yesterday County scored, against ICT there wasn't VAR right enough but even having VAR is risky, depending on it to get it right for us. Course other times we've just completely fucked it up, like Devlin being caught cold playing Youan onside. It is costing us in games anyway, we got away with it yesterday but ICT and Hibs, it def changed the way the game went giving away such cheap goals. 

[ATLIS]

This St Mirren game coming up is season defining, absolutely massive. We win that and top 6 is hopefully sealed, puts us in a good spot to push on for Europe. Really hope we've learned our lessons from last season, here's hoping we take a good support through there.

[LIVIFOREVER]

Yeah we've been in this position twice already this season, Aberdeen and Hibs, where a win would've pretty much given us a top 6 spot, esp the Aberdeen game. Hopefully it's 3rd time lucky against St Mirren, but even a draw would do, with them having very tough away games coming up after us, giving us another 2 bites at opening up a 4pts gap on them before the final pre split game.

We really don't want to lose that game and go behind them again, needing 2 wins from our last 3 pre split games to avoid risking heart ache again on the final game if St Mirren won theirs and we didn't.