Livingston - all the threads merged

[Durnford]

13 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

See i don't see it as a loss, they shouldn't be getting seats in the home end to start with, they've 3 stands of tickets sold out though, and that's a big earner, along with Celtic it's more than we make from any other game. The club has made EXTRA on top of what it should be making by away fans buying tickets in the home end, but that shouldn't be seen as a loss when they make sure it doesn't happen again. If it's all about money then you'd be as well segregating Livi fans into half the West stand and giving 3 and 1/2 stands to the erse cheeks, and feck how that pisses off home ST holders being moved out their seats, or just give the whole stadium out to away fans to make a killing, why bother about home fans when it's all about money. That's not even as ludicrous as not bothering half the West stand is full of Sevco supporters mingling with Livi fans.

Anyway it's all done now, and the club has made the right decision to protect its home fans from abusive away fans out to cause trouble in the home end. 

 

On your hospo point, agree whole heartedly with you there, really should be security dealing with these drunken aunts, not just erse cheek fans either happens nearly every game, you hear drunken away fans in the hospo shouting the odds at Livi fans. Just because they spend a bit more dosh in the hospo shouldn't give them special treatment to behave like arseholes.

But "THEY" probably only numbered maybe 100 rangers supporters - what about the 1400 who were there to support Livi but don't have a season ticket or someone just wanting to watch a game of football without allegiances?

To make up for those unbought tickets we'd all have to chip in an extra £40 a head over and above the standard cost for each old firm game.

Also the suggested solution doesn't really work as whats to stop a ticket tout from purchasing a concession season ticket and then buying say ten tickets per old firm game? I understand they were making £70 per ticket so that would be £700 pure profit a game; a minimum of £2,100 per season.

If the club catches on and cancels the season ticket so be it; they simply buy another one under another name.

The other problem is tracing back rouge tickets to the person that bought them. If they're sitting in their allotted seats then fair enough but in order top be sure you'd have to challenge them and demand to see their ticket. They are actually not legally obliged to hand it over. The only sure way to check things is at the turnstile.

 

 

[ATLIS]

14 minutes ago, Durnford said:

But "THEY" probably only numbered maybe 100 rangers supporters - what about the 1400 who were there to support Livi but don't have a season ticket or someone just wanting to watch a game of football without allegiances?

To make up for those unbought tickets we'd all have to chip in an extra £40 a head over and above the standard cost for each old firm game.

Also the suggested solution doesn't really work as whats to stop a ticket tout from purchasing a concession season ticket and then buying say ten tickets per old firm game? I understand they were making £70 per ticket so that would be £700 pure profit a game; a minimum of £2,100 per season.

If the club catches on and cancels the season ticket so be it; they simply buy another one under another name.

The other problem is tracing back rouge tickets to the person that bought them. If they're sitting in their allotted seats then fair enough but in order top be sure you'd have to challenge them and demand to see their ticket. They are actually not legally obliged to hand it over. The only sure way to check things is at the turnstile.

 

 

There was far more than 100 Rangers fans in the home end. I can assume with some confidence that you didn't see the mess behind the home dugout and to that corner of the stand. Not sure at all why you're defending Rangers fans getting even more seats in our stadium, it's never going to be just neutrals. 

I quite honestly couldn't give a f**k about the neutrals if it's coming at the expense of the safety of home fans having to deal with that mess again on Saturday. It's not costing the club anything when away fans shouldn't be in the home end. If this is the most effective way to do it, then good. Non season ticket Livi fans will be able to get tickets through other fans.

[Lothiangamer]

37 minutes ago, Durnford said:

 

whats to stop a ticket tout from purchasing a concession season ticket and then buying say ten tickets per old firm game? I understand they were making £70 per ticket so that would be £700 pure profit a game; a minimum of £2,100 per season.

 

 

 

Whats to stop 10 or 20 Rangers fans clubbing together to buy a single season ticket in order to then buy 10 or 20 tickets in the home stand. Will there be a limit to the amount of tickets a season ticket holder can get.

There will likely be ways round it, What needs to happen is security, away fans turning up wearing away kit, scarves etc should have been turned away at the turnstiles, when buying a ticket online it is clearly labelled home support. if they do get in by hiding their colours then show it in the home stand, then they are ejected from the stadium not escorted to the away stand. 

The way the club are implementing this is they only feasible way I can think of. 

[The Wrong Car]

I think that's the key issue - the club can't stop any of the schemes above, but what they can do is put up enough small barriers to try and make it not worth the effort for away fans. 

I'm pretty sure anyone who posts here/on the Facebook forum who asks for a ticket shouldn't find it too hard to get a home end ticket. 

[Durnford]

13 hours ago, ATLIS said:

There was far more than 100 Rangers fans in the home end. I can assume with some confidence that you didn't see the mess behind the home dugout and to that corner of the stand. Not sure at all why you're defending Rangers fans getting even more seats in our stadium, it's never going to be just neutrals. 

I quite honestly couldn't give a f**k about the neutrals if it's coming at the expense of the safety of home fans having to deal with that mess again on Saturday. It's not costing the club anything when away fans shouldn't be in the home end. If this is the most effective way to do it, then good. Non season ticket Livi fans will be able to get tickets through other fans.

I didn't see anything around the home dugout; I was in C2 and saw the small band of about 20 rangers supporters down to the bottom of C3. They didn't seem particularly threatening to me although the tubby woman who turned around and gave us all the "V" sign as she was being led out had a certain level of class  (certainly wouldn't have liked to meet her on a dark night).

It there was a congregation of away supporters in front of the home dugout; why weren't they kicked out immediately? That would have been the easiest thing to do? We had masses of police but they were all congregated at the far corners presumably looking for pyrotechnics and pitch invasions. Talking for the C3 group; it seemed that a couple of the youngest stewards were left to deal and the older, and presumably more experienced, stewards only occasionally wandered up to have a word and then, just as quickly, disappear. This was absolutely a failure of the stewarding company and the club should demand an explanation.

Atlas; please be clear; I am never going to defend either of the old firm getting tickets in our own end (or anyone else for that matter). I would however be prepared to accept that some will purchase tickets by nefarious means on the basis that they a refused admission or turfed out as soon as they make their presence known. In order for that to work legally the club will need to make it patently obvious that tickets in the West Stand are for home supporters only and anyone contravening that are liable to refused admission or removal.

As for neutrals; I assume we were all neutrals at one stage. I certainly was; having not been able to go and see my original home town side of Cardiff (Bluebirds) for many years. My kids got given free tickets and the rest is history.

When we first got promoted to the SPL, as was, I believe we sold somewhere between 3-4k of season tickets using up the West stand and a chunk of the South. A lots happened since then but the only way we are going to improve is by getting neutrals in. This isn't a private members club.

All in all; if ticket touts want to get hold of tickets they will do. If away supporters want to try and buy tickets to the home stand then some of them will succeed. In actual fact history proves that the more barriers you put up; it can, in some ways, become more easy for the determined members to get in (having cleared a lot of the competition)..

The best and surest way of controlling this is to have adequate security; both at the turnstiles and then again inside the ground. To make the conditions of sale totally apparent to all potential purchasers and to ABSOLUTELY enforce the rules without delay throughout the entire game. None of this waiting for half-time rubbish.

Pretty sure this is what happens in other grounds.

 

 

[Durnford]

Strangely I've just gone on to our eticketing site for the Hibs game and could not find one single reference that the West Stand was for home supporters only. Plenty of stuff about under 16's needing to be accompanied and how to travel to the ground safely but nothing about, for example, if you turn up with an away top you'll be refused admission.

Maybe I'm missing it; but if there is a message then it needs to be a lot larger!

[Cptn Hooch]

15 minutes ago, Durnford said:

Strangely I've just gone on to our eticketing site for the Hibs game and could not find one single reference that the West Stand was for home supporters only. Plenty of stuff about under 16's needing to be accompanied and how to travel to the ground safely but nothing about, for example, if you turn up with an away top you'll be refused admission.

Maybe I'm missing it; but if there is a message then it needs to be a lot larger!

From the Livingston OS to get to that page you need to click a link that states "buy home tickets"....away supporters are sent to a different link

[Durnford]

22 minutes ago, Cptn Hooch said:

From the Livingston OS to get to that page you need to click a link that states "buy home tickets"....away supporters are sent to a different link

Sorry; maybe I'm being a bit anal here but that's hardly constituting a "Away Supporters will be refused admission" message.

Remember we're not always dealing with the brightest of the bright.

That being said our official twitter site doesn't even say that:

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Livingston Football Club

 

@LiviFCOfficial

·

20h

 

Tickets for our @cinchuk Premiership clash with @HibernianFC on Saturday 13th August are now available to buy from club reception, over the phone or online on the link below. https://eticketing.co.uk/livingstonfc/Events

 

[LiviLion]

1 hour ago, Durnford said:

Strangely I've just gone on to our eticketing site for the Hibs game and could not find one single reference that the West Stand was for home supporters only. Plenty of stuff about under 16's needing to be accompanied and how to travel to the ground safely but nothing about, for example, if you turn up with an away top you'll be refused admission.

Maybe I'm missing it; but if there is a message then it needs to be a lot larger!

 

1 hour ago, Durnford said:

Sorry; maybe I'm being a bit anal here but that's hardly constituting a "Away Supporters will be refused admission" message.

Remember we're not always dealing with the brightest of the bright.

That being said our official twitter site doesn't even say that:

The West Stand is only "home supporters only" for games we sell out the other stands, i.e. Celtic and Rangers.

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 hours ago, Durnford said:

I didn't see anything around the home dugout; I was in C2 and saw the small band of about 20 rangers supporters down to the bottom of C3. They didn't seem particularly threatening to me although the tubby woman who turned around and gave us all the "V" sign as she was being led out had a certain level of class  (certainly wouldn't have liked to meet her on a dark night).

It there was a congregation of away supporters in front of the home dugout; why weren't they kicked out immediately? That would have been the easiest thing to do? We had masses of police but they were all congregated at the far corners presumably looking for pyrotechnics and pitch invasions. Talking for the C3 group; it seemed that a couple of the youngest stewards were left to deal and the older, and presumably more experienced, stewards only occasionally wandered up to have a word and then, just as quickly, disappear. This was absolutely a failure of the stewarding company and the club should demand an explanation.

Atlas; please be clear; I am never going to defend either of the old firm getting tickets in our own end (or anyone else for that matter). I would however be prepared to accept that some will purchase tickets by nefarious means on the basis that they a refused admission or turfed out as soon as they make their presence known. In order for that to work legally the club will need to make it patently obvious that tickets in the West Stand are for home supporters only and anyone contravening that are liable to refused admission or removal.

As for neutrals; I assume we were all neutrals at one stage. I certainly was; having not been able to go and see my original home town side of Cardiff (Bluebirds) for many years. My kids got given free tickets and the rest is history.

When we first got promoted to the SPL, as was, I believe we sold somewhere between 3-4k of season tickets using up the West stand and a chunk of the South. A lots happened since then but the only way we are going to improve is by getting neutrals in. This isn't a private members club.

All in all; if ticket touts want to get hold of tickets they will do. If away supporters want to try and buy tickets to the home stand then some of them will succeed. In actual fact history proves that the more barriers you put up; it can, in some ways, become more easy for the determined members to get in (having cleared a lot of the competition)..

The best and surest way of controlling this is to have adequate security; both at the turnstiles and then again inside the ground. To make the conditions of sale totally apparent to all potential purchasers and to ABSOLUTELY enforce the rules without delay throughout the entire game. None of this waiting for half-time rubbish.

Pretty sure this is what happens in other grounds.

 

 

It's only for erse cheek games though, plenty other games neutrals can go to and sit where they want, if it's only erse cheek games they're interested in then i doubt their neutrality. Also can't see over 1,000 neutrals would be in the West stand, i saw plenty Sevco fans celebrating them scoring that weren't showing any colours. Also could see pre match ko and HT ko  kids and adults hanging around at the away dugout and between the home dugout and tunnel waiting to take pics and get autographs/selfies with Sevco players. Would've been easy for stewards to see they were Sevco fans. As you say though the majority weren't confrontational, most sat quietly till they scored, it's far more vocal in the hospo section.  

Not sure how much power Stewards have for ejecting people if it got physical, they don't get paid enough for them risking their well being so i don't blame them for not trying to physically eject Sevco fans, more a job for the Police, and i know from a friend's son who had a part time job stewarding a few years back, the Police aren't keen on arresting Sevco fans, he reported them in Ibrox toilets doing drugs and the police told him to go deal with it. Needles to say he let them know what he thought of that idea. So other than ask them to leave the stadium i doubt Stewards would be able to do much if they refused. The police would need to step in, and going by the use of pyros and Sevco fans standing all game, i've no confidence rules are enforced on them. Stewards are shit scared to confront them and Police aren't much better.

Doubt Hibs fans will want to buy tickets for the home end/West stand, they'll have plenty seats over in the East stand, Hibs don't usually bring more than 3,000.

[Durnford]

16 minutes ago, LiviLion said:

 

The West Stand is only "home supporters only" for games we sell out the other stands, i.e. Celtic and Rangers.

 

You and I know that but its not what it said on Twitter for the official site:

Quote

Livingston Football Club

 

@LiviFCOfficial

·

Jul 25

 

Tickets are selling fast for Saturday's @cinchuk Premiership opener with

@RangersFC

. Remember, we can't sell on the day so you must get yours from reception, over the phone or online on the link below before then. https://eticketing.co.uk/livingstonfc/Events

Legally it could be argued that the club were obliged to find another place for them to sit as conditions of sale were not made apparent at the time.

[LiviLion]

5 minutes ago, Durnford said:

 

You and I know that but its not what it said on Twitter for the official site:

Legally it could be argued that the club were obliged to find another place for them to sit as conditions of sale were not made apparent at the time.

Maybe I'm having a slow morning/afternoon because I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The Rangers game didn't have the "home supporters only" rule, it's the reason we will for future games involving the gruesome twosome. The Hibs game won't be included because there won't be the same demand, and Hibs fans will easily be able to get tickets to the game without needing to go into the West Stand.

[Durnford]

5 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Not sure how much power Stewards have for ejecting people if it got physical, they don't get paid enough for them risking their well being so i don't blame them for not trying to physically eject Sevco fans, more a job for the Police, and i know from a friend's son who had a part time job stewarding a few years back, the Police aren't keen on arresting Sevco fans, he reported them in Ibrox toilets doing drugs and the police told him to go deal with it. Needles to say he let them know what he thought of that idea. So other than ask them to leave the stadium i doubt Stewards would be able to do much if they refused. The police would need to step in, and going by the use of pyros and Sevco fans standing all game, i've no confidence rules are enforced on them. Stewards are shit scared to confront them and Police aren't much better.

As far as I am aware we have to follow the direction of the stewards as part of the safety at grounds act (as amended).

If someone point blank refuses then they are effectively committing a criminal offence however what the Stewards can do about it is a moot point. Obviously they can perform a citizens arrest but that can carry significant penalties, personally, if they get that wrong. As such this is something that needs to be handled by the police.

Obviously there is a current trend to try and limit the police presence at most football matches makes that more of a challenge but there should have been no excuses on Saturday.

I have sympathy for the stewards; years ago I helped out a friend by standing in as a bouncer at a Welsh nightclub for a couple of months; I hated it; confrontation all over the place and the occasional boozed up ned wanting to push my face in. The money wasn't worth it.

[Durnford]

3 minutes ago, LiviLion said:

Maybe I'm having a slow morning/afternoon because I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The Rangers game didn't have the "home supporters only" rule, it's the reason we will for future games involving the gruesome twosome. The Hibs game won't be included because there won't be the same demand, and Hibs fans will easily be able to get tickets to the game without needing to go into the West Stand.

My point is if you want the powers to eject people from the home end simply for wearing the away top  then you need to make the condition of sale crystal clear. No if's not but's; that's what it says on the ticket.

To my mind we didn't do that for the sevco game; and as such I suspect that's why they waited until half time to sort the matter out.

To my mind though the offenders could have been removed immediately for refusing to sit in the all seater stadium; a legal requirement for the Premiership I believe.

[Durnford]

Starting to fear we might not see Tom again in a Livi shirt. On the rare occurrences we saw him last season I thought he looked pretty handy.

Morgan started to settle at the end of last season and began to show his potential but there's already significant competition for the CM position

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/livingston-defender-could-miss-entire-27656223?fbclid=IwAR2ZBCmWuUeFZiqBgo4wkiPjzgWF_lq4rhsKEOi5GOY91Gb4EbwrYYSL2uM

 

[ATLIS]

1 hour ago, Durnford said:

Starting to fear we might not see Tom again in a Livi shirt. On the rare occurrences we saw him last season I thought he looked pretty handy.

Morgan started to settle at the end of last season and began to show his potential but there's already significant competition for the CM position

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/livingston-defender-could-miss-entire-27656223?fbclid=IwAR2ZBCmWuUeFZiqBgo4wkiPjzgWF_lq4rhsKEOi5GOY91Gb4EbwrYYSL2uM

 

Not sure Parkes is a huge loss as we've hardly seen him. Boyes looked good whenever he played and has good potential.

Worth noting Boyes is a CB. Martindale saying he wanted to loan him out is interesting as IMO he's too good for that. He'll be a fine replacement for Parkes I reckon. He looked somewhat better than Ayo towards the end of last season which helped in making him look decent.

[Durnford]

19 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

Not sure Parkes is a huge loss as we've hardly seen him. Boyes looked good whenever he played and has good potential.

Worth noting Boyes is a CB. Martindale saying he wanted to loan him out is interesting as IMO he's too good for that. He'll be a fine replacement for Parkes I reckon. He looked somewhat better than Ayo towards the end of last season which helped in making him look decent.

Sorry Typo - meant CD for both.

As for Parkes; I still remember that last minute header against Ross County to win the game 2-3.

Yes; he only had I think 8 appearances last season and most; other than the league cup, were off the bench. Still I think he had potential once losing weight.

[The Wrong Car]

Parkes had a poor start in a poor team, however once he got going he looked decent (but not at LCB in a 3) 

Boyes looked much better, however, so I'm surprised he's one mentioned as being loaned out. As much as game time makes sense, he offers much more balance than Obileye at LCB, better cover than Longridge at LB and is probably one of the few potential sellable assets we have

[Durnford]

I actually thought Boyes had a poor start but that was largely down to being given the final five minutes in games when Martindale was in his tinkering phase. 

You can't give a fair assessment of anyone on those terms. 

Towards the end of the season he looked far better and you could almost see the confidence building up in him. Would be interesting to see him get a run of games though and not simply ten minutes here and there.

Not altogether a fan of him being loaned out; we will pick up injuries and suspensions (hopefully no more straight reds) so feel he will get his chance.

 

[The Wrong Car]

Yeah I'm basing it on the post-split games. I don't think any January signing impressed much pre-split, mainly due to the settled team and importance of the games limiting any meaningful rotation.

Well that and the fact the striking reinforcements were guff

Edited August 4, 2022 by The Wrong Car