Luddite

I’m late to the party and I only have black and whites but hope these help ? : 1/ (top) 1989 away to Rangers 2/ 1988 away to Celtic 3/ 1981 winning The Daily Record five-a-side trophy after beating Dundee United, St Mirren, Queens Park and then Killie 2-1 in the final. 4/ Tony Higgins 1985-86

Fair enough if that’s the case. I’m going to give the highlights another once over. i hope you are correct as I could not make any sense of that decision

Although both teams should have had a penalty Stranraer had far more really strange decisions go against them. I honestly can’t recall having seen that many bad decisions in one game. The foul being given against James Dolan…with the position/movement/momentum of the two players I don’t know how anyone could think he committed any sort of foul there, never mind the fact he was completely taken out and looked genuinely hurt for a good 5 minutes afterwards going off for treatment, unlike Russel Dingwall doing a Rivaldo. Scottish League Two and your’e pulling shit like that.? Fucking embarrassing. His antics throughout the game and afterwards make it obvious he sees himself as some sort of “shit houser”. The type of player that made me stop watching the top leagues.

Was following BBC text/stats. Stranraer 60% possession, 4 shots, 1 on target. Forfar 40% , 16, 5 Anyone at the game verify this reflects how it played out? Strange tactics for Forfar at home, allowing that much possession to an opponent obviously struggling to create chances. Forfar with the best defense outside top 3 but least goals scored outside the bottom two. I haven’t seen much of Forfar beyond highlights this season but is conceding so much possession and counter-attacking how they/you usually play?

Anyone know if Airdrieonians will be streaming video/audio of the Stranraer game?

Probably true, although I read Fergie saying McLean was his toughest managerial opponent, and he was including all the usual suspects like Wenger and Mourinho

mate, you’re on your own with this.. I bowed out from discussing this particular line of enquiry

Too simplistic and absolute. When a game at Tannadice in the 80s was called off just before kick off (vs St Mirren I think) the St Mirren fans were protesting outside the ground. McLean went out and faced them, told them they would all get free entry into the rearranged tie PLUS United would pay for their travel. Used to give match day mascot and their parents a personal tour round the ground, the trophy room taking all the time in the world to answer their questions and give them a great day. Told the mascots they could change in his office and if anyone questioned them tell them to “Talk to Jim McLean” Would answer phone calls to the ground personally and invite fans in to to meet with him, in person, to discuss, in depth, policies they were unhappy with. Took managing the clubs finances as a personal crusade, turning lights off, paying for his own meals and travel. Even made his wife pay for flowers out of her own pocket to decorate the board room each week. He was a custodian of an organization owned by the local community (in his eyes) and did everything in his power to just keep that club afloat, never mind be successful. Not for his own ego or benefit but for the local community. Like us all, I’m sure he could be a c**t, but he gets a bad rap.

Okay, I probably should have worded things differently. I don’t think Jim McLean is the “greatest” Scottish/British manager of all time because “great” encompasses legacy, status and probably trophy count (the simplest “metric” most people use to measure accomplishments). But formal presentations of shiny little trinkets from “dignitaries” with ticker-tape cascading down all around is a trick of media and the “spectacle”. What I should have said is that I think Jim McLean is the best British football manager, the best at management of resources. It reminds me of the story attributed to Mark Twain about an author who travelled the world hoping to talk to the greatest military general who ever lived. He learns that the greatest military general who ever lived died many years ago and is now in heaven, so the author pays a visit to St. Peter at the pearly gates (don’t ask how because II don’t know, it’s a story). Anyway, he tells St. Peter he wants to talk to the greatest military general who ever lived and St.Peter points to a little old man nearby. The author says “there must be some mistake, I know that man, he was merely a shoemaker in my village when I was a boy” and St.Peter replies “Yes, but if he had been a general he would have been the greatest general who ever lived”. I guess that’s McLean for me, his inherent ability meant he was the best, but by staying at Dundee United he never attained the wide-spread recognition that would have had people calling him “great”. Souness won 4 Scottish league titles in 5 years. Do you think Graeme Souness was a better manager than Jim McLean?

Hate to admit it but I don’t know enough about him to comment. Had to look up your ‘62 reference, didn’t even know he was Ipswich manger for their First Division title Worth a deep dive I reckon

@MolotovI take this back. I enjoyed the debate. In fact I enjoy discussing the exploits of 20th Century British football managers more than just about any other subject. That being said, I can see the merit behind arguments for a multitude of managers - Stein, Fergie, Clough/Taylor, Wallace, Revie, Shankly, The other Shankly, Greenwood, Kendal, Graham, Wilkinson, Nicholson…I may ultimately not agree with them but I could understand the argument being made. You seem completely unwilling to even entertain the argument for McLean on any level. Anyway, as Rocky Balboa realised when assessing if there were more moths or flies in his turtle food…who the hell cares?

I’ve enjoyed the back and forth lads, but it’s descending into silliness now. I’m off for the night #jimmcleanforpresident

1/ Its an opinion 2/ The question I’m asking is not “what did they achieve?” but “What did they achieve relative to the resources available to them” 3/ I think either your reading comprehension skills are lacking or you are so emotionally involved you are intentionally misreading my responses.

I'm confused by your response. I don't really know how to reply to it.

I think you are discounting where Dundee United were when McLean took over. They weren't even the biggest club in their tiny city.

I honestly, 100% think Jim Mclean is the greatest ever British manager. I'm not saying he won the most trophies, had the biggest profile or was the most famous, but I think he managed his resources better than either Stein or Ferguson....though I could possibly be convinced that Fergie's accomplishments at Aberdeen were more impressive, but not his Man Utd career.

I can't speak for @Monkey Tennis but I don't think either of us are disrespecting Stein or Fergie, or trying to claim that what they did wasn't impressive. I am just of the opinion that what Jim McLean accomplished is MORE impressive.

This

I judge managers on what they attain with the resources available to them. All the managers you mentioned had far greater resources. Had Jim Mclean been able to break the transfer record for a striker (as Clough was able to), I dare say he'd have won a lot more trophies. Trophy counting is too absolute in my view, I try to take a more relative outlook. Clough could have won another league title with Forest but he dismantled his team too quickly, Stein should have had at least one more ECC. Paisley inherited Shankly's well-oiled machine, all he had to do was keep the engine running. Shankly put everything in place and I doubt Paisley would have been able to build what Shankly did from scratch. Just my opinion.

All football clubs competing in the Champion's League are Thatcherite/Neoliberal. Every single aspect of our lives has been captured by this mentality, there is no alternative . There is no avoiding this reality so you can try to engage with the world constantly striving to remain aware of the cognitive dissonance that is required to navigate it, and making efforts, where possible, to stay awake, reject media-created bullshit when you can (like Celtic PLC) and realise when you are being lied to (*hint* it's always) and, more importantly, when you are lying to yourself. Or, you can try to deny the utter psychological horror that is living in the 21st century and take shelter in the lie that those 11 men running around in green and white hoops with the little clover on it are representative of the same meaning/values of 100 or even 50 years ago. FC United of Manchester are a perfect example of how ideals become jettisoned when factions of people start craving status i.e "we reject all commercialization of our community project" becomes "lets show ambition and move on up through the leagues" (last I checked there was a battle taking place within their club, not sure where that currently stands but I have my predictions on how it will eventually end up). Assigning current political labels like "Torie" or "Left-leaning" is meaningless. We're all Thatcherites now, and have been for 40 years. You/your club chose to adopt your enemies tactics, the results were inevitable.

For me, Jim McLean is the greatest (British?) manager of all time. Closely followed by Clough, but Clough was managing a bigger team in a bigger city in a bigger country and a richer league. He was able to break the transfer record on a striker to help him win European trophies. If we are rating managers based on their resources and what they attained with them then its McLean No.1 for me.

That’s fair

Okay. I’m not really following your thread , I’m sure it’s there but your reply is a bit vague. That being said, I’m just finishing work, low on caffeine, mentally tapped out. I do know St. Mirren aren’t selling players for £25M Saudis or not. Maybe it’ll come to me in the night. Cheers

I’m not being a p***k or snidey, I’m genuinely asking you to explain that to me. I’m assuming you might be alluding to the inflation of transfer prices/wages due to Saudi Arabia’s recent “sportswashing” program? If you wouldn’t mind, can you join the dots for me so I can understand your argument?