The Wrong Car

Aye, I have no doubt that Hogarth joined the ownership team with good intentions about the club he supports. His actions during, and after, are fairly questionable however and he's not alone in that respect.

This is my main concern about the Trust at the moment - using fan's voices to play into whatever is happening behind the scene. Any group that involves two former directors who have been involved in legal action against the club (not to mention the fact Nixon was banned as being a director for 4 year), a former sponsor who's only followed Livi for a few years in the Premiership (in his words) and a guy who's been hanging about since the Massone days looking to become a director doesn't exactly seem like a fan movement many can get behind. Have they announced any of the new Leadership yet?

Is there much going on at the club anyway? There’s a break before the next fixture, and with no fixture list there’s no tickets/hospitality to sell via reception

What youth players can actually play this season? There seems to be a fair few out on loan at various non-league clubs Ledingham was on the pitch with the mascots last weekend, along with two others. Any involvement with the first team would benefit them at this point, so it would be poor management to exclude them all.

Probably not the wisest phrasing, or good for business, however there’s been a growing element at games (particularly away games) that cross the line when it comes to shouts, in my option. I’d prefer it if the Chairman of the club didn’t resort to tweets like this, however it’s clearly aimed at a fairly small and specific section of fans

Not surprised to see the three names mentioned as leaving Anderson has been frustratingly underused and over-criticised and, while he hasn't quite justified the hype this season, he'll easily find another Premiership club. Whether it's his diabetes or the failed move to Georgia, his manager doesn't seem to trust him this year Nouble was incredible for a short time, then misused by Martindale. Last summer really seemed to mess his form up, with agents and managers pushing moves and slotting back into a team not designed for him. Overall though, signing from the National League and (possibly) moving onto a League One club represents a good opportunity for the guy Obileye has had his critics, however I think he's developed into a perfectly fine bottom 6 CB. Ask him to clear and head the ball away and he's sorted. Ask him to start stepping into midfield and play passes and you're in trouble. He's clearly not good enough to be a 'main' CB at this level, but stick him next to someone who's happy to organise and he'll do well. His conversion from CM to CB, whist playing at a higher level for 3 years, is probably Martindale's best attempt at this (even if it did lead to him trying it at least once with every other player)

I can't be 100% sure, but I'd imagine a number of Trust members would have taken part in the Operating Fund and gained shares in their individual name so I doubt it's something they'd enforce.

I completely agree that they need to sort itself out. They jumped the gun accepting Ward's offer, and realised this. That's fine, but phrasing that as "We also wish to state that Mr Ward was not invited to speak at the original meeting; he offered to speak, but was not asked" seems needlessly provocative. Ward could, and should organise a forum, but it was the Trust that publicly accepted his offer to speak at the original meeting. However, I think the Trust demanding apologies for "besmirching" Trust members who ask them to explain points, or posting fairly childish emojis to fans posting concerns, suggests an organisation that is fundamentally defensive towards fans' scrutiny. Hopefully the election of a new board changes this, as it's clear that the Trust, similar to the club, includes folk that are burnt out and need to step away. There's still a need for them, and hopefully this is looked back on at some point as a minor mis-step in their re-launch as an organisation for all fans

I was happy to see the Trust make moves to arrange an AGM. The offer they took, then rescinded, for Ward to speak was understandable giving it would result in non-Trust members wishing to attend a meeting that needs to focus on fairly dull administrative tasks. I also understand why meetings may not be held at the club, particularly this one. However, I have no idea why they seemed to tie themselves up with stupid lies. Claiming there's no precedent to meeting being held at the club, claiming they've held monthly meetings (which turned out to be unpublicised, non-minuted zoom calls or meeting in homes) and the general snideness in their response to fans who question this is alarming. In a week where we've seen the chairman rant on Twitter, a volunteer compare fans to supermarket shoppers, the Trust seems determined to trump them all.

Given the timeline, Hogarth's need for money might stem from this judgement rather than COVID https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=c02e28a7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

The minute he started comparing a football club and supermarkets, and calling fans customers he’d lost the argument

Standing up and explaining their own views is exactly what I'm asking for Perhaps they could invite a few other fans, and call it a Fans Forum?

The idea that the average fan needs to personally approach those involved to ask them to clarify the situation is fairly ridiculous. This applies to everyone involved, including Ward and Hogarth. I doubt many Livi fans would oppose this, nor Hogarth and Rankine being fully reimbursed for any money owed. However, my scepticism comes from the fact that nobody seems to know their intentions. I'd argue critiquing Ward for not being open, while giving Hogarth/Sumner/Rankine the benefit of the doubt on that front is a better example of bias

I found this - seems to be just after Evans & Collins left https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/loss-john-collins-major-blow-2538535 It's a shame they seemed to stop, however I'm sure the Trust left the board fairly soon after this and they presumably played a big part in pushing for these.

How exactly would fans do this? Should we hang around West Lothian hoping to bump into him? Head over to the Broadwood Motor showroom? Send him a message asking him to explain his motives to each individual fan? Surely the onus is on Hogarth himself, similar to how the onus is on the club (Ward/Black) to speak more? Out of curiosity - when was the last Fan's Forum? I remember attending ones towards the end of the Massone era, but I'm not sure they were ever a regular thing? At risk of being accused of 'bias', Ward left April 2019 and returned January 2020. If that's the period being highlighted as good governance by Hogarth/Rankine, the sale of Dykes in August 2020 went a long way to boosting finances. (If this was in reference to another period, apologies. It's fairly hard to see at which points Rankine was actively involved in the running of the club )

I agree with the general points regarding McIlvogue, as he doesn’t seem to have much presence However it’s nonsense to suggest Hogarth and Rankine are somehow good for the club. The former has been mentioned in Judge’s Comments as someone who’s happy to cut checks to himself from club accounts with little warning. The latter, even if you ignore the alleged double/triple counting of loans, is well known across Scottish Football as a fairly disruptive silent shareholder. Expecting fans to ask Hogarth directly is nonsense as well, he’s more than capable of clarifying his plans publicly.

Well, no. It's entirely the making of the clubs pushing for the vote after years of accepting them throughout the SPFL. Plenty of clubs throughout the leagues play on plastic pitches of a varying standard. Changing all of these on the whim of armchair fans who don't like how it looks on TV, or managers like Brendan Rodgers who use it as a ready made excuse for poor results seems rash. In what way? It'll clearly impact a number of clubs massively over a short period of time. I agree that the pitch at Livi is fairly poor most games, however the tactics used on it and the preparation it gets before games play a massive part in how they're perceived.

There's a corner of the pitch that, due to the position of the stand, never gets sunlight. It's also build at the bottom of a hill and next to a river, which doesn't help with drainage.

Aye, it must be frustrating asking for specific details and only getting general comments in return The club should comment on every case, and I have no idea why they didn't. The Trust did, at one point, have a position of power so I'm not sure why you seem to take folk questioning that as a personal insult? I've not hidden the fact that I hold trusts and fan organisations to a higher standard than outside bidders.

I agree with this, however he's one of many problems 'upstairs'. On the pitch he's much more responsible

It's not a binary choice - you can be frustrated by the club's lack of statement whilst simultaneously asking the Trust to do more. Glad you've read the Judge's statement, given this entire conversation started with you asking why I believed the club regarding Hogath's use of cheques - it's in the statement For someone who felt the need to create a second account to convey your ideas because other's blocked this one, going "blah blah blah" seems fairly childish. To clarify I blame Martindale for the on-pitch shambles and the negative tone within the club, Ward for losing control of budgets, Stoker for ignoring fraud while a LfL Board Rep, the Trust for being a useless fan forum, and Hogarth and Sumner for the lack of clarity on what they want to actually do with the club. Did I miss anyone?

Even if you ignore the actions (or inaction) of their Board Representation in 2013, the fact is the Trust is a fairly large shareholder. Not enough to run the club, granted, but they're in a stronger position than the average fan to query and question board-level decisions. If they were unable to, they should have raised that any time between 2013 (when they withdrew their Rep from the board) and 2023 (when they posted on FB about it) I did give them the benefit of the doubt, as it seems run by folk who want out. However the shambles of trying to arrange a meeting, or actually joining the Trust, doesn't inspire confidence

If the club is being fairly vague, which they are, it's the Trust's role, both as a fans organisation and a shareholder, to try and clarify it

But it does confirm, in court, that Hogarth was/is a fairly dodgy director while involved at the club I agree regarding the lack of statements, and it's one the the reasons I've got a fairly harsh view on the Trust. Even if you ignore their involvement at the time, their role now is to try clarifying these issues on behalf of fans I think we can file that one under 'bad lawyer'

It was mentioned by the judge in his concluding statement, not the club I don’t, but it’s a reasonable explanation for Martindale’s comments given the expenses judgment was only a few weeks ago.