AJF

We finished third in our Euro 2020 qualifying group, we've already blown our first chance at a World Cup play off spot after we threw away our Nations League group and currently we are in 3rd position of our World Cup qualifying group and find ourselves in a position where we probably need to beat Austria away and Denmark at home to have any chance of second place. The only saving grace is our Nations League qualification for Euro 2020 but at what point does that stop carrying any weight? I'd suggest 10 matches since is a good enough measure. Like I've said before, I'm not 100% in the Clarke out camp, but I think it was a big risk giving him that contract extension.

If 1 win in 9 isn't that strong an argument then what is? We were told when appointing Clarke that the football wouldn't be pretty but he knew how to get results. At the moment, the football isn't pretty and we aren't getting results.

If that was the point you've been trying to make, it seems you've followed a very convoluted path to get there. From what I've seen from you, you seem to believe that Scotland are not capable of better and we should not be expecting better than 2 wins in our last 10 competitive matches. If that assertion is incorrect, then I apologise, but everything you say seems to suggest that everyone else has unrealistic standards.

No, that's not the point you've been trying to make. You've been contesting that prior to the Moldova game, 1 win in 9 competitive matches (against the Faroes) was acceptable. Just because "the hordes" hold a different opinion to yourself, doesn't mean they are wrong or have thick hides, it just means they disagree with you.

That's the thing though, it's not just Rangers fans that have been critical of SOD. I think most people would've identified right back and striker as Scotland's main "problem positions" heading into the Euros. We now have a couple of great young candidates that look like they can stake a claim, but people now seem to be adding more weight to the experience of SOD compared to before.

I am not trying to normalise them, but by the very definition of requiring someone to believe in god and be Protestant to join, they are a religious group. I am not detracting from any of their hateful policies or actions in saying this, it is simply a fact. I am not determined to use this chap to push any agenda, I never even brought him up in the topic (it was actually a Celtic fan who did) and I have no inclination to make his life difficult. I was countering your assertion that he had not been sectarian in what he said. I've already condemned the tweets of those that were exposed and have made it clear on many occasions that this has descended into a completely sad yet predictable farce, but ultimately, that does not excuse someone of sectarian insults regardless if this was uncovered through malice or retaliation which you do not seem to agree with. Your point that only 15% of the population being Catholic is an interesting one given that less than 1% of the population will be members of the OO. Nobody is arguing Catholics have not been persecuted or mistreated. But do you really believe that all insults regarding Dirty Orange Bs are aimed at the OO only which make up a fraction of the population, or do you think it is fair to say that some people will be meaning Protestants as well?

The Orange Order is a religious group. Whether that includes hateful policies doesn't change that fact. Additionally, his full (alleged) tweet reads: "Sectarianism is so stupid. I wish Catholics and dirty orange b******s could all just get along together". It is quite clear here that he is meaning Protestants when referencing the sectarian divide with Catholics. It has never been acceptable to use anti-catholic/irish slurs, it's just been problematic to eradicate it and warped people are often set in their ways. Again though, that doesn't excuse the comments made by others that have been found in retaliation, regardless of how pitiful it may seem.

And what about phrases such as Dirty Orange B, which this Sean McDonald is alleged to have used? Is that also perfectly acceptable? Don't get me wrong, this is a sad yet predictable outcome to the article, but don't make it seem as though it only goes one way. Whether I'm accused of whataboutery or not, you can't condemn one side but give others a pass just because they've been targeted in retaliation.

I think the issue revolves around the accepted notion that when Rangers fans reference the F word they mean Catholics, or more recently Irish Catholics with the Scottish Governments move towards phrases like anti-Irish racism rather than using the term sectarianism.

You'd think that they'd be used to it by now given that Rangers (and Celtic) fans have had to pay more than your average fan to attend football matches for the last X amount of decades. Folk just like a moan when in reality it's always been the case.

I seen it raised on Twitter but it seems to be a promotion clubs have opted to do before to get around the SPFL rules. If it was simply a public sale then it would be a different matter, I suppose.

That's generally what the debate is about though, is people using terms in an offensive manner. When Rangers fans use the F word, Celtic fans use the H word, racists use the N word etc. it is not simply stating a fact - it's use is intended to be offensive by attacking a protected characteristic (in some instances - I accept H** is not always used attached to religion). Insulting someone by calling them baldy, ginger or Dundonian while offensive, is not illegal because they are not protected characteristics.

It's not to do with the fact that some people may refer to themselves as an F, it changes it's meaning if someone else abuses them due to it. For example, if someone states "I'm Black" then that is factual and there is no issue. But if someone else then brands them a Black B, then that is insulting someone based on a protected characteristic, in this instance their race, which is illegal.

Personally I think the intent behind the use of the word is what differentiates it from being sectarian or not, which is almost impossible to prove. I referred to a couple of cases previously where it was determined the use of the word was sectarian, but I don’t doubt at all that people also use it with no sectarian intent (as has been highlighted in this thread).

Another twist. I’m tired of this now.

Fans doing their bit, time for the team to turn up. Better late than never.

This has to be deliberate now, missing these chances

Right come on to f**k Scotland

Wonder what McCoist thought of that ball from McGinn

I don’t think we’ve been as poor as some believe, just no cutting edge at all.

Not being more than a goal up at the break is criminal. Some of our play has rather encouraging but we really need to be more clinical. Some sitters squandered, Tierney and Robertson the main culprits.

He barely plays club football because he is back up to the best right back in the country. That doesn’t mean he is not one of the best Scottish right backs.

Not sure what he was waiting on.

This. Let’s not also forget this is a 19 year old making his first start for his country. He has just set up a goal and people are desperate to criticise.

That Patterson eh, what’s he like, setting up goals.