Pyramidic
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Posts posted by Pyramidic
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I find it rather difficult to comment on the Tayside issue at the moment given that the situation appears quite fluid. To be honest all I want to see is the issue resolved and Tayside clubs playing Senior football in the Pyramid. This can be as a Tayside Senior League, a combined North of Scotland / Grampian League or absorption into the EOSFL.
Where I do feel strongly is that if we are to continue to use the existing HL / LL Tay boundary, Scone Thistle and Tayport are south of that boundary, and these two affected clubs must compete in the EOSFL. There should be no exception in my view. It would not be fair on the West Lothian clubs who want to play in the WOSFL.
I also feel that the NRJFA clubs have been dragging their heals on Pyramid alignment - a matter that should have already been ratified and delivered. Perhaps it would concentrate minds if the Tayside clubs start initiating the formation of a joint Senior League.
Revolution and change is in the air. Really interesting to see the emerging changes and whether the delivery of a workable solution is achieved.
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14 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
The said thing in all of this is that a year ago there were a bunch of West Region clubs that got their finger out and pursued the creation of a league that would allow them to enter the pyramid. They then got it done in the space of a few months.
Agreed. The other key factor is that there were helpful and experienced administrators with the LL / EOSFL that helped facilitate the process.
If the same people help the Tayside clubs there would be every hope of a satisfactory and successful outcome. Probably a “big ask”.
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2 minutes ago, Dev said:
Down South some Development League have needed to include Development/Reserve teams from clubs already in the Pyramid in order to make up the numbers for a viable Division. Not sure how this may work with e.g. Ayrshire amateurs/youth who may not be keen on travelling outside their area.
A couple of weeks ago parkcircus indicated that there were 14 clubs (mostly Amateur) that had expressed an interest in joining the WOSFL. I think the interest is there but the problem we all know is identifying a suitable ground or bringing an existing venue up to an appropriate standard. Travelling outside the regular area could be an issue but if a Development Section at Tier 10 was started with two small regionalised conferences (say each with 10 teams) the problem might be addressed at the outset.
There are all sorts of permutations that could be followed. New clubs that join from South Ayrshire might eventually “work” with the SOSFL as part of the arrangement for bringing the SOSFL into the fold as a feeder league to the WOSFL.
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At the moment any club applying to join the WOSFL will have to meet the following ground criteria:
https://wosfl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/WOSFL_-Entry-Criteria-2020.pdf
This is a “tough ask” for many aspiring Amateur Clubs despite allowing for some concessions that may be agreed by league officials for the opening season.
A case can be made for an additional set of “starter” ground criteria that could be set down by the League specifically for clubs entering at say Tier 10 in what effectively would be a Development Division(s).
If we look at what happened at Step 7 down south, these are the sort of parameters that could be established (obviously with some strengthening):
The link between Amateur Football and the WOSFL can be better facilitated with the creation of a Development Division (or possibly two conferences covering North and South) in which teams can be promoted to Tier 9 if they finish in a promotion place and can meet the standard ground grading criteria.
This in my view is how progression may take place - a Development Division for Amateur and Youth set-ups - where clubs can be “incubated” to progress to the higher more demanding semi-professional level.
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Just now, FairWeatherFan said:
That's the old version of the rules. If you go on the website there's a specific rules tab that has the current version.
I was just being flippant!
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5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:
No reference to the WOSFL in these rules. Clydebank's promotion hopes scuttled?
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9 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
Had know idea who that was and noticed Glasgow Wellington in their profile. A club that I would describe at the minute as the Loche Ness of the South (t-shirt company/social media entity right now). Who have previously had some banter on their social media about applying to the WoSFL.
Picked it up on the EOSFL Twitter!
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39 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
It's more to do with the fact that senior Scottish football has largely been moving away from the Balkanised mess it always has been towards a unified structure that makes sense, is fair and offers clubs the chance to find the level they should be playing at. The SoSFL existing at tier 6 is a bit of a historical/geographical anachronism that nobody would suggest if we were starting with a blank page.
I think that the position of the SOSFL will eventually resolve itself by the SOSFL clubs themselves wanting a pathway into the WOSFL rather than continuing with a “fantasy link” into the LL where clubs would soon overreach themselves if a SOSFL club ever got promoted through a playoff system. The divergence in standards between the LL and SOSFL is likely to become a bridge too far.
The other interesting aspect is the destination chosen by clubs like Gretna and Dalbeattie if they get relegated from the LL. Competitive football in the WOSFL Premier or languishing in the idyllic backwaters of the SOSFL. Not an easy choice.
In the meantime it should be business as normal for the SOSFL in my opinion.
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These comments that I made another thread are also relevant here.
It does make a lot of sense incorporating the name of the town or settlement in the club title.
I think that we will see more Youth set-ups applying to the EOSFL and WOSFL. They are very different from the general football model. Most will trace their origins to a few dads that wanted to establish a Youth side for their sons. One team subsequently grew into two teams and the club then begins to mushroom and we have say 20 or 30 teams or perhaps more.
Money can be raised with enthusiastic mothers an fathers. Sponsors arrive from all sorts of directions. Grants are available from local councils and other funding bodies.
The club becomes recognised as a community service. The downside arrives when players are 16 or 18 and the more talented ones migrate to Junior/Senior clubs. A few may remain with the club and progress into Men’s amateur football.
It is natural for those administering the club to consider at some stage creating a pathway to Senior football. This can be achieved with a partnership with a Senior club or by taking the difficult route of applying to the EOSFL or WOSFL and upgrading facilities as appropriate.
In most cases the level of support for a newly created Senior side is likely to be very poor at the outset. Interested family members and a few youngsters who play for youth sides is probably the most that can be expected to attend games.
However, providing that players are not paid it does not really matter. It may be possible to bring in older more experienced amateur players to swell the ranks but there is always the possibility of a clash of cultures.
A Youth club following the Senior route can over time have built up a lot of assets from grants and membership/monthly fees (say 700 players paying say £25 annual membership and £20 monthly training/match fees). Some money may be left over for important development projects! Then add the fund raising and sponsorship elements. Whilst some youth set-ups will struggle others will not.
The point I am making is that the funding model (assuming it works successfully) is very different for a Youth club that moves to Senior football. It will not work if the club is simply going to rely on its local support base in terms of matchday attendances.
A successful Youth club who establishes a Senior side in my view represents a positive element for the future of the EOSFL and WOSFL . However, it does need to be carefully assessed by the respective league officials to make sure that league criteria can be properly met and the applicants proposals are truly sustainable.
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1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:
I'm not convinced it would work, but I think it's better than calling it Grangemouth and hoping for the best.
Building a crowd and maintaining it isn't easy. It needs a lot of work and/or a lot of money in the early stages. If tonight's money at it is signing players, you'd need a big upturn for it to work.
The best example I've seen recently has been St Rochs, but they had history to build on.
It does make a lot of sense incorporating the name of the town or settlement in the club title.
I think that we will see more Youth set-ups applying to the EOSFL and WOSFL. They are very different from the general football model. Most will trace their origins to a few dads that wanted to establish a Youth side for their sons. One team subsequently grew into two teams and the club then begins to mushroom and we have say 20 or 30 teams or perhaps more.
Money can be raised with enthusiastic mothers an fathers. Sponsors arrive from all sorts of directions. Grants are available from local councils and other funding bodies.
The club becomes recognised as a community service. The downside arrives when players are 16 or 18 and the more talented ones migrate to Junior/Senior clubs. A few may remain with the club and progress into Men’s amateur football.
It is natural for those administering the club to consider at some stage creating a pathway to Senior football. This can be achieved with a partnership with a Senior club or by taking the difficult route of applying to the EOSFL or WOSFL and upgrading facilities as appropriate.
In most cases the level of support for a newly created Senior side is likely to be very poor at the outset. Interested family members and a few youngsters who play for youth sides is probably the most that can be expected to attend games.
However, providing that players are not paid it does not really matter. It may be possible to bring in older more experienced amateur players to swell the ranks but there is always the possibility of a clash of cultures.
A Youth club following the Senior route can over time have built up a lot of assets from grants and membership/monthly fees (say 700 players paying say £25 annual membership and £20 monthly training/match fees). Some money may be left over for important development projects! Then add the fund raising and sponsorship elements. Whilst some youth set-ups will struggle others will not.
The point I am making is that the funding model (assuming it works successfully) is very different for a Youth club that moves to Senior football. It will not work if the club is simply going to rely on its local support base in terms of matchday attendances.
A successful Youth club who establishes a Senior side in my view represents a positive element for the future of the EOSFL and WOSFL . However, it does need to be carefully assessed by the respective league officials to make sure that league criteria can be properly met and the applicants proposals are truly sustainable.
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26 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:
Think a Lowland League 2 but with east and west sections would be ideal to get rid of pro/rel bottlenecks. It won't be long until enough west clubs would be licensed for that to be realistic and it would help to get all the clubs that operate with six figure budgets at the professional game board level where they belong. A way needs to be found to move the SoS down the pecking order a bit to a level where its clubs are keen to move up when the opportunity arises and an LL2 west might be a better fit on that than the LL.
On the plus side it perhaps would get rid of the bottlenecks. On the minus side it basically just reconfigures the EOSFL Premier and WOSFL Premier and dilutes the EOSFL and WOSFL as flagship competitions.
Not sure that those administering the EOSFL and WOSFL would wish to see their competitions diluted just to accommodate weaker clubs in LL that inevitably will be dropping down the Pyramid in the near future.
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5 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:
I mean one carrot for the WoSFL to dangle to top amateur clubs is that the WoS will be considerably higher on the list than any local amateur leagues when it comes to return to playing/spectating.
As I've said before I do think Strathclyde Uni and Oban Saints would be mad not to apply.
Earlier in the thread I suggested that these two clubs may have been among the outfits that have made enquiries to join the WOSFL. Parkcircus indicated that the two clubs were not among the 14 clubs.
We know that a lot of Amateur Clubs have made enquiries and there are suggestions that a bottom tier division may be formed.
A key question now would be the conversion rate of enquiries to successful applications? Would there be enough clubs to form an additional division? We should know the number of applicants by the end of the month.
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19 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:
Another issue that really should be looked at eventually is whether the SoS should feed into the WoS at a lower level if it adds a regional tier rather than the LL. This might also be the way to integrate Argyll clubs into the pyramid so they can pursue licensing and a Scottish Cup place.
The possible integration of the SOS as a feeder to the WOS is in my view a relevant issue. The inclusion of the Argyll clubs might be achievable if Tier 10 is regionalised.
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A few more images of Holm Park covering accessibility.
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This time last year we were hearing of club after club announcing that they were leaving the WRJFA for the WOSFL before we reached a grand total of 63 clubs + 4 other clubs.
This season there is a deathly silence with just a few murmurs that a cohort of Amateur Clubs will be applying to join the WOSFL. But the only firm applications to date appear to be from:
* Kilbride Thistle
* Harthill RoyalIn contast in the EOSFL we are almost into double figures with those clubs seeking to move to the East of Scotland.
Just wondering why there is so little Twitter / Facebook activity on prospective WOSFL applicants and above all why we are currently devoid of any rumours?
Will they come?
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13 minutes ago, Burnieman said:
What happens if the West clubs don't want them?
Go cap in hand to the SOSFL?
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4 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:
Tayport have stated they are putting in an application. Dave Baikie mentioned it during a podcast.
Any news on the position of Scone Thistle, Marten?
With Letham FC probably joining Jeanfield Swifts, Luncarty and Kinnoull in the EOSFL, Scone will be left "out on a limb" in a Tayside League
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3 minutes ago, PastyMan said:
Harthill confirm on FB their application to WoSL.Seems fair enough.
You may have heard various comments with regards to the East Region SJFA, our current league, and the changes that various teams are making for the new season, 2021/22.For those that are not aware of the changes, many teams have decided to move to East of Scotland, which of course has massive implications for the remaining teams.Therefore, after deep consideration, the Committee decided the way forward for our Club, to help us progress further for Licensing and entry into the SFA Pyramid System, is to apply to the West of Scotland League.The application process has begun and we will keep you up to date on the next steps of this exciting new adventure for the Club and support.Meanwhile, the Management and players have been busy working hard throughout lockdown, keeping their fitness in check and really looking forward to getting back to playing again for Harthill!Whilst I am a little disappointed that Harthill have not applied to the EOSFL, I wish them every success as a Senior club in the WOSFL.
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This thread is moving away from my starter topic and in response I have amended my opening statement in the first thread to include the following:
"This thread is evolving into covering a number of important issues relating to how the WOSFL may progress and develop. These include:1. The structure of the WOSFL Pyramid and place within the National Pyramid.
2. The number (and type) of clubs that should be accommodated in the WOSFL.
3. Ground criteria that should be adopted for clubs in the WOSFL (with variations at different tiers).
4. Linkage between WOSFL and Amateur Leagues.
5. Meeting the challenges of social media.
6. Respecting diversity and inclusion in terms of race, age, gender, language, beliefs, sexual orientation and style of communication.
7. Helping facilitate the progression of clubs in the West of Scotland in terms of advice and support.
8. Discussing and communicating any other issue which is relevant to the development of the WOSFL."
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Letham appear to have had a good record in the Perthshire Amateur League over the last 20 years. Champions on 11 occasions.
1999-00 Letham
2000-01 Bridgeton United
2001-02 Alyth
2002-03 Murray Royal Hospital
2003-04 Balmoral United
2004-05 Letham
2005-06 Breadalbane
2006-07 Balmoral United
2007-08 Letham
2008-09 Letham
2009-10 Ballinluig
2010-11 Balmoral United
2011-12 Balmoral United
2012-13 Letham
2013-14 Letham
2014-15 Letham
2015-16 Letham
2016-17 Letham
2017-18 Letham
2018-19 Letham
2019-20 unfinished
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Another option for an aspiring Amateur or Youth set-up with hopes of joining the WOSFL before the “entry doors” become more restricted is to upgrade a former Junior ground.
Some of the possible venues are listed on the excellent Non League Scotland website:
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1 minute ago, Sergeant Wilson said:
Well I'm sorry it was harsh, but it's a theme you do perpetuate. There's 3 or 4 school pitches with facilities that wouldn't need much development within 2 miles of my house. It doesn't mean any need a senior club to fill an imagined void.
I raised the issue in the context of the Letham FC application to the EOSFL.
Personally I am not a fan of 3G/4G venues but like it or not they are part of the football landscape.
I would much prefer to see old grounds brought back into use:
Ballingry Rovers - https://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/Historic/ballingry.htm
Bonnybridge - https://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/Historic/bonnybridge.htm
Steelend Victoria - https://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/Historic/steelend.htm
Others are listed at - https://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/Historic/lostindex.htm
Trying to provide a helpful hint to any aspiring Amateur or Youth set-up in Fife etc.
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2 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:
Give it a rest. A pyramid is great, trying to shoehorn every club, level and format isn't.
Clarkston BBs could get the old ash pitch in Katherine Park on a long lease and upgrade it. Scottish football needs to fill the gap between Gartcairn and Plains Amateurs. There's 2 miles with no senior club!
I only asked a question. I have not been to many of the 3G grounds. It would be helpful to know if any of the venues have some potential.
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Future progression and development of the WOSFL
in West of Scotland Football League
Posted · Edited by Pyramidic
Plenty of time over the next couple of months to continue to work on fine-tuning the incredible re-structuring that is taking place.