Che Dail

Clubs wishing for change should act now rather than waiting for the association to report on progress, otherwise there's a risk that the same conversation will be happening in a year's time and no further forward. Set something up Burnie Man...

At the moment clubs don't need to have floodlights for entry level SFA license. Penicuik do have lights though, and Bonnyrigg I believe were considering installing them.

It's a working group "formed from the Committee". The same group as before?

What about this from the SJFA in September: PYRAMID The East Region Secretary updated the Committee on Pyramid. It was agreed that a Working Party be formed from the Committee to determine the best possible way forward for Junior Football. Sorted then eh? A Working Party.

I quite like page 26, it starts with a quote: Keep away from those who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you believe that you too can become great. Mark Twain And goes on: Setting audacious goals comes with inherent risks; not least failure or inability to deliver on the promise and the criticism that will inevitably follow. Yet, what is the point in compiling a new strategic plan that serves simply to accept mediocrity or embrace the average? Better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all? That quote strikes at the Calvinist trait prevalent in our society: not to dream too wildly for fear or being perceived as arrogant or mad. Scottish football, as the national game, deserves better than to be given a cursory tidy-up. The reality of now is that the game is suffering the corrosive effects of decades of inertia, uncertainty, vested interest and apathy. The Scottish Football Association will be criticised whether it does nothing or tries too hard. Better the latter. In order to convince the game’s other stakeholders we first had to convince ourselves. That done, the argument became compelling. For a game accused of being mired in self-interest, ‘what’s in it for us?’ seemed a good starting point in discussions with the great and good of the game. Not so much what’s in it for us as, what if…

You don't need a license to be in the leagues which feed in to the LL, but without one you can't get promoted. To form a new league each club would need to commit to the pyramid. LTHV couldn't progress last season because they don't have one, although they did get admitted to the Scottish Cup as winners of the EoS. (If you do get licensed you'd be in the Scottish Cup regardless of which league you're in).

Yes, they are - which is why they employed Henry McLeish to produce a wide-ranging vision for the game in Scotland - the pyramid formed part of his recommendations. It needs buy-in from the clubs to work though, the SFA isn't an 'authority body' that can force change.

'Man sets no store by which he gained easily' or something along those lines. Anyway, if 16 West Region clubs aligned to form a new league and applied to the SFA for it to join the pyramid, pitched alongside the SoS instead of below it... would that work?

Yes - every single club should move across and make it work from the inside. It really doesn't have to be that complicated. Clubs would still keep their 100+ years of history, they'd still be playing against their local rivals but there would be something to aim for beyond the top league.

Erm... Something lost in translation with the definition of 'regional' - travel time is equivalent to Elgin to Oxford! Mind you, by comparison if Oslo (thro Sweden) to Tromso is a 22 hr drive - the 10hr derby fixture is a walk in the park! Thanks for the info btw, good feedback.

Yes - and it's not just clubs, it's also about getting players and coaches at the appropriate level based on their abilities. At the moment there are better players at some Junior clubs than in League 2. For some it's more attractive to play at this grade simply because they don't want to travel and can spend more time with family or focus time on their professional life / career outside football. Others will clear more money (playing a lower grade of football) and that's a motivating factor. So the Senior leagues are not as competitive as they should be because the best players aren't in it, and ultimately that's not healthy for the game at the top level. Below the top two pro leagues it should be feasible / viable for the best local players to be playing at the best local club. In the top two leagues it's a job / career, which is different.

Aye I see what you mean, I thought you were saying Pollok were left out... The structure is literally a cut and paste of club names taken from league websites and Wigtown aren't in the SoS set-up. No voodoo powers I'm afraid!

Nope. Not full of hot air either - just looking to Denmark, Norway, Germany for inspiration. Are you Alf Garnett?

A thing isn't nonsense just because you don't understand it. 'Level of aspiration' refers to an approach by a group or an individual to achieve or perform a task. The success is determined in part by the drive to complete it. In the context of this conversation, if the 'drive' is to get to the Lowland League then the SoS route is the 'process' (as things stand). In other words, no matter what standard the SoS league is, and regardless of the increased travel distance, if the LL is the target you will get there. And in the process (Obtaining a License and competing in the Scottish Cup) a well-run club should thrive and improve. If Junior clubs were to commit to the pyramid they would have a say in how the route into LL is structured. At the moment they stand on the outside and can only look on and see how it develops without them. 'The pyramid is flawed' we were told at the recent AGM. Of course it is flawed, because Junior clubs are not in it! Nobody is saying that SL Junior clubs should 'aspire' to play in the SoS. Similarly, at the opposite end nobody is suggesting that Premier League football is a reasonable or appropriate level of ambition.

I thought his club was Pollok - They're shown in the LL alongside Airdrie, Clyde, Albion Rovers, Dumbarton, Auchinleck, Glenafton.

The level of aspiration suggested by proponents of the pyramid is for clubs like yours to reach the Lowland League and the SoS is the route to that. A well run club is not likely to be ruined by aiming for the LL. Ballingry folded recently (East SL) and West region juniors have too due to financial mis-management or other reasons. Rangers, Hearts, Gretna were all licensed though difficult times... really comes down to the people in charge.

Do clubs outwith the top two divisions travel long distances, I.e over 2hrs? According to website it is regional below that at 2nd division (fair play league, 56 clubs in 4 groups) then 12 regional sections below that (3rd division split north / south). I noticed that reserve teams can play in 2nd division also.

Yes - it works. Danish system is similar too - 2 top (pro) leagues of 14 and 12 (best v best), then 3 regional 2nd divisions, and below each of those is the Denmark Series. Our equivalent of those 2nd divisions could be Highland / Lowland East / Lowland West. The EoS / SoS etc would be the Series equivalent. Below that is amateur. Danish population close to Scotland £5m ish and is also similar in terms of geography, i.e. it's a 4 hr drive from Aalborg to Copenhagen. Meanwhile in Scotland Berwick will travel to Elgin twice (nearly 5hrs) and vice versa - something not right with that, at this grade of football...

Haha aye maybe not this time round Sarge

Licensed clubs receive a payment every season from the SFA - i think this year for the 6th tier clubs it is about £6k. The overall pot varies depending on SFA profit from the previous year, so more money would be generated if Scotland reached the World Cup finals - that would be a good year for everyone. Agree it is wishful thinking that all junior clubs would move en-masse to the pyramid.

As i understand it the licensed clubs receive a share of the SFA profit year on year. So if there are more clubs registered, on the face of it, there would be less available per club. But if you look at it in more detail the new members would help to generate profit for the association (as they evidently do now for the SJFA) - so in theory the more clubs switching over, the more profitable the association would become, so more cash would be paid out across the board at the start of each season. And you have to believe that the Scottish national team will continue to improve and progress and get to a world cup finals which ultimately is what it's all about. If they do, and the national association receives a windfall, all the member clubs would benefit. Cash generated from a Scottish Cup run is what you make of it. You'd have to advance in the competition and of curse there's a degree of luck in the draw. In the previous 3 seasons on average 10 "non-league" clubs have reached the 3rd round, 4 ave have made it to the 4th round and in 2014/15 Spartans reached the 5th round. Top level SL junior clubs could aspire to this. Within the same timeframe non-league clubs have been drawn against Celtic, Hibs, Motherwell, Ross County, Hamilton, Partick, St Mirren, Dunfermline, Raith, Morton. The money generated from every one of these fixtures stays in the "non-league" game. The Scottish Junior Cup on the other hand will generate barely any revenue for your club, unless they win it or gets to the final and even at that the amount of money raised is not significant.

Not quite a 'land grab' because it wouldn't be a hostile act, it's not a takeover. The move would be mutually beneficial for the existing SoS clubs and the Juniors clubs. I'd have thought it would be a welcome problem for the SoS league secretary to manage and make it work. The pitch to the clubs would simply be that the standard of the division would improve considerably, gates would go up, improved player recruitment prospects and the profile of the league would be enhanced. The league is committed to the pyramid after all so I'm not sure why they'd want to prevent new members from joining. The ex Junior clubs would be free to make their license application and gain entry to the Scottish Cup every season - as other clubs have shown recently it's not beyond the realms of possibility to go on a run which generates a huge amount of interest and decent income that they otherwise would not have access to. And they'd still be playing against their local rivals week to week. It might not be necessary to make the clubs start afresh in a tier below the SoS - I suspect there would be a case to be made to re-structure the league to suit the full and enhanced list of members and this could be done by negotiation. Hypothetically speaking you could take the top half of SL clubs and the top half SoS clubs and form a 1st division of 16, and the bottom half of both leagues form a 2nd division of 16, with say 3 up 3 down and a playoff for 4th bottom and 4th top. That way the impact would be immediate (for both leagues) and not over 6-7 years as you suggest. Clubs would quickly find their level and within a couple of seasons more clubs would surely follow. Beyond that, with the Juniors committed to the pyramid, there would be a fresh case to be made for a Lowland League West, and a Lowland League East. I honestly think that would be progressive.

But it wouldn't be a nomadic existence if all the clubs moved across. You'd take the £150k + for the Scottish cup run then go back to playing the teams you've always played, the derbies and the relatively big crowds.

..."progression" for a side like Talbot or Pollok would be playing Rangers or Celtic in the Scottish Cup, which might go some way towards paying for the bus to Threave. I'd rather we all looked up rather than down.