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Posts posted by HibsFan
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…moving swiftly on.
Kettlewell’s leading the charge.0 -
4 hours ago, stu2910 said:
Was just about to back you up on that one! I'm not usually a doom and gloom merchant but I fear VAR is here to stay. Is there actually a precedent for this anywhere that we know of? Has anyone in sport implemented anything on this scale and then scrapped it? Would be interesting to know.
The example from my lifetime that springs to mind is Golden (and Silver) Goal, which admittedly might not have been as widespread as VAR is, but nonetheless probably looked like a gimmick that was here to stay.
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On 17/03/2024 at 07:04, HibsFan said:
Again, this thread is not for debating the merits of VAR. It's not for discussing any past, recent or future decisions made by VAR. It's not for suggesting alternatives to VAR. It's not for pondering whether it's the referees at fault rather than the technology.
Don't make me tap the sign.
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Getting bogged down in the merits of individual decisions is one of the biggest mistakes that nominally ‘anti-VAR’ segments in the Scottish football media make.
The question shouldn’t be “was that decision right or wrong”, it should be “right or wrong: was that really worth pausing the game and detracting from the match-going fan’s experience for?”.
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19 minutes ago, velo army said:
Well played @HibsFan. My only issue with your email is the bit about "I'd like to hear the panel's thoughts". I can't think of anything I'd like to hear less than Michael Stewart's thoughts on anything, let alone VAR.
Haha, I agree but felt like I had to massage their egos a bit and play the game.
SpoilerLong-time listener would also be stretching the truth a little.
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And hot on the heels, I’ve sent this off to the Sportsound email address found online:
Dear all,
Long-time listener of the Scottish Football Podcast but it’s my first time writing in.
I wanted to get the panel’s thoughts on the recent statement made by Motherwell regarding VAR, which can be found here:The statement talks at length about a recent decision that went against the club against Aberdeen, but that isn’t what I’d like to discuss. Frankly, I’ve heard enough chat on specific VAR decisions to last a lifetime.What caught my attention was the following:Spoiler“We are aware from the recent SFA announcement and from interaction with SPFL officials that a full review of VAR is ongoing and we have had input into that process. There are many potential consequences of some of these decisions, but we are most concerned that the inconsistency of decision making, regular lengthy VAR interventions during most games and lack of any clarity on why decisions have been made, is having a serious impact on fans’ enjoyment of the game.
The feedback we receive from our own fans on VAR is almost entirely negative and, if given a choice, we believe most would vote to no longer have it in use. It’s actually not easy to find anyone who either participates in football or watches it who is happy with the current position.”
This is the first time that I’ve seen a club in Scotland release a statement about VAR that acknowledges match-going fans. When VAR was being voted on up here, almost zero fans were consulted at any of the clubs about this huge change to the way we watch football.
Why are the supporters, the people who keep Scottish football going being ignored in the consideration of whether VAR is ‘worth it’? Why has it been decided that the only thing that matters is “getting the right decision”? Something which is an impossible goal in a sport as subjective as football.I know that I am not alone in feeling this way, and I guess my question for the podcast is: when can we expect fans in Scotland, who we are repeatedly told are the lifeblood of the game, going to be given a say in whether they want their matchday experience significantly altered by VAR?Many thanks,7 -
Motherwell have given us a lovely platform to build on there, thanks Steelmen.
My writing to Sportsound and the papers is going to use that as a way in to the conversation.
Simply put: why has no club properly consulted with their fans about VAR and are the (utterly minuscule) ‘benefits’ of improved accuracy in decisions worth the fans’ enjoyment of the game being spoiled?
ETA: genuinely, if you’re anti VAR and said you “canny be fucked” writing to them on this, we’ve got some momentum now. Simply send this part of that Motherwell statement and ask them, in light of what Motherwell have said about the overwhelmingly negative fan response to VAR, what your club’s stance is and whether they plan on asking the support.
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Sent mine off to Hibs this morning:
SpoilerTo whomever it may concern,
I hope this email finds you well.
[Supporter Liaison Officer], I've CC'd you into this email because, last time I wrote to the club on this issue, you were the only response I had.
We are approaching the two-year anniversary of Hibernian Football Club's statement, posted online on Monday 4th April 2022. The statement ended with the words:
"Hibernian FC strongly supports the introduction of VAR in the Scottish game."
As a former season ticket holder who is returning to Scotland between now and the start of the 2024/25 season, I would greatly appreciate if these three questions could be answered before I commit to purchasing an adult season ticket in the East Stand next season:
1) Based on the first eighteen months of VAR, does Hibernian FC still strongly support VAR in the Scottish game and, if so, what is the reasoning behind this?
2) Now that VAR has had a year and half to 'bed in' to the Scottish game, does the club plan on consulting with supporters to gather feedback on the impact VAR has had on their match-going experience?
(If yes, will any representative of the club be prepared to meet with myself and other supporters to discuss VAR's impact on the match-going experience?)
3) If the club were to receive feedback that suggests a majority of their supporters are dissatisfied with VAR, will the club be open to exploring options up to and including enacting a pause and/or a 'sunset clause' on VAR, at least until supporters' concerns have been properly addressed?
As I have mentioned in previous correspondence, Hibs have been a part of my life that I did not think I could ever go without. The introduction of VAR to the vast majority of Hibs' matches has damaged this strength of feeling and commitment considerably. It has reached a point where I am no longer certain that I will continue being able to justify putting money into the club.
I hope that my questions can be answered and, if necessary, we can begin looking at arranging a meeting in the summer – when I am back in the country. Alternatively, I would be happy to schedule a virtual meeting before then.
Yours sincerely,
x
(Client ref. xxxxx)That's step one, but now it's time to go to the papers and Sportsound too.
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14 hours ago, Scary Bear said:
I’m more likely to just give up watching top level football rather than complain to my club or the SPFL or SFA or anyone else.
As long as Raith Rovers stumble about in the lower leagues, I don’t have to suffer VAR, so I only come into contact with it while watching games on TV.
For the avoidance of doubt, I absolutely loathe VAR. It’s easily the worst thing that’s happened to football in the 38 years that I’ve been avidly watching it.
I'm not sure if this is a fair description for a team who are currently joint top of the second tier on goal difference.
However, it does make a good point about the enjoyment of watching games.
I've only watched a handful of 'neutral' games in Scottish football this season, none of the Premiership ones stick out in my mind at all.
The only ones that I can actively remember enjoying watching have been:
Morton 2-1 Motherwell (VARless)
Raith Rovers 4-4 Ayr (VARless)
Raith Rovers 2-1 Dundee United (VARless)
The last five minutes of St Mirren 2-1 Aberdeen were hilarious but even that was kicked off by an energy-sapping VAR check.
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2 hours ago, Busta Nut said:
Someone should type out a template for those too lazy, then that can be emailed off.
We now have that ChatGPT for this exact purpose, when I’ve got some free time I’ll get a few templates fired up.
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So yes, my story with taking action against VAR is pretty much entirely concentrated to 2022, when it was being floated, voted on and eventually implemented.
Sent this email* to Hibs in April of that year and got nothing back at first. A snippet of the closing paragraphs below:
*not posting the whole thing as a lot of it was just moaning at the club.
Note on my boycott threat: due to personal circumstances I actually haven't been able to attend a game anyway since writing that email, so I've followed through on withholding my money from Hibs even if it hasn't been done purely on moral grounds.
After VAR was introduced in October 2022, I went back to the email and realised that I had forgotten to include the SLO's email address and re-sent it (with some additional comments). To paraphrase, the SLO's reply was along the lines of:
- We were the last major league in Europe to introduce it so we could avoid some of the teething errors ()
- Correct decision-making will help Scottish football to move forward and align us with counterparts in other countries
- There will still always be incidents, VAR can't resolve everything
- VAR in Scotland wouldn't have been stopped if Hibs fans had been consulted
- However I've passed on your feedback about supporters being consulted on issues such as this going forwards
Anyway, I didn't bother replying and the post from V.G. jogged my memory that I had actually done it in the first place.
Since then, I have mainly resorted to despairing and/or sniping from the sidelines. Is it petty? Definitely. Is it pleasing feeling entirely fucking vindicated by what I wrote in April 2022? Also yes. For people saying "oh how could we have seen what VAR would bring?", here's what I and many others were saying before the clubs had even voted:
But V.G.'s post was exactly the shot in the arm I needed to remember what (admittedly little) I can do to try and turn the tide back in the favour of Scottish football fans who are sick and tired of VAR. I know that I am not alone in feeling like this, social media and forums such as this are awash with punters who would happily see the whole thing binned off.
So, inspired by the above, I will be taking at least three of those four steps - currently being out of the country limits my chances of being able to call in to Sportsound any time soon - and I would implore others to do the same.
The one thing I refuse to accept is that this is the status quo and there's no point complaining about it, we might as well get used to it. There are countless examples of the exact opposite of that sentiment being true, and if we can't overturn VAR completely we can at least make people in charge of it feel a lot less comfortable and smug about their pet project of sacrificing football fans on the altar of 'getting decisions correct'.
Again, this thread is not for debating the merits of VAR. It's not for discussing any past, recent or future decisions made by VAR. It's not for suggesting alternatives to VAR. It's not for pondering whether it's the referees at fault rather than the technology.
It's not for anybody other than those who feel the same as I do and want to discuss how we can take action, whatever your club may be. Three of the posters I agree with most on this issue (@VincentGuerin, @Dons_1988 and @AJF) support three of the four clubs I like the least in Scotland; it goes beyond any rivalries you may have.
I know that there are people all across Scotland who just want to get back to attending a version of football that felt vaguely exciting and enjoyable.
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A post that I missed last month from @VincentGuerin in the second iteration of a 'VAR in Scottish football' thread on here has got me thinking about the entirely ineffectual 'fan backlash' to VAR in Scotland to date:
SpoilerOn 20/02/2024 at 09:20, VincentGuerin said:This thread is depressing. Nothing to do with actual VAR, which anyone with half a functioning brain predicted would be terrible, is terrible, and always will be terrible.
More the fucking streak of pish Negative Nancies on here givng it "oooh, it's shite but there's nothing we can do".
Get a fucking grip of yourselves and get your fingers out your arses, you spineless c***s. Err, with respect.
If you're on here moaning about VAR, then why don't you do one of the following:
1) Write to/email your club's SLO and board of directors. If Motherwell, for example, start receiving dozens of these letters, it becomes an issue they need to address. If you moan about it on P&B, f**k all will happen. Explain your reservations about VAR clearly and respectfully, ask if the club has considered the view on the impact on paying fans in the stadium, remind your club how much of their income is from paying fans, and ask if they have any plans to consult with fans on how VAR is going, and if not, why not. At least hint that you're considering attending fewer games and your ST renewal is in doubt. That gets the c***s' attention. I have done this. Disgracefully, I received no response from either my SLO or the board of directors at my fan-owned club. They'll be getting another letter soon. Why the f**k not? Bombard the c***s.
2) Loads of c***s on here listen to Sportsound every week. We know that from all the fucking moaning about it. Some c**t fucking phone them and, again, respectfully and clearly, explain that the Sportsound panel and SFA shills they have on there are not paying supporters. Explain your experiences and objections, again, hint that you're considering going to fewer games, and raise the issue of why there has never been any meaningful consultation on the issue with the fucking mugs paying £30 a go to watch this pish. I am at a game most weeks, so this is tricky for me. But I have made a solemn vow to some mates that I'm going to do this. I'll be on kidding on to support someone else (if I get on) so none of you c***s will know it's me. It doesn't sound like much, but the VAR converation in the media has moved past "should we have it?" and we need to bring it back to that point. Phone them, you lazy c***s. Same goes for any of our brain-dead contributors, but obviously, you can call Super Scoreboard. Every little helps. Move the conversation to where we want it to be. If they're getting these calls every week, it becomes an issue.
3) Write to the paper. Papers are dying and they'll literally print any old shite. They probably make up half the letters they print (or get some unpaid intern to write them), so they'll be delighted to get a real one. Write out a letter outlining your objection, and send it to all the papers. Someone will print it. If they start getting loads of these, they'll run with them. And if they become a theme, some opportunistic hack will take up the cause as they're all dying for attention and relevance. My letter is nearly finished and will be going to all of Scotland's publications in the next two weeks, I think. Write a letter, you lazy b*****d.
So, all you fucking surrender-monkeys on here giving it the "oooh, poor old us, what can we do?", put up or shut up. VAR is shite, but it's up to us to do what we can to try and get what we want. At the moment, the conversation around "should we have VAR?" is off the table, and that's on the supporters. We've let that happen. The first step in getting rid of it is getting that question asked again.
I'm serious. If you're reading this and want rid of VAR, then do one, two, or all three of the things I've suggested and we might fucking get somewhere. If you don't, then you're right; f**k all will happen.
Stop fucking moaning and do something, you c***s. Respectfully.
Viva la revolucion.
Now, to make a few things crystal clear before getting into this.
This thread...
- does not aim to discuss any past or future VAR decisions in Scottish football, there are other threads for this
- does not seek to argue that one club has been wronged more than others, point-scoring etc is a waste of time
- makes the case that there is no acceptable form of VAR, again there are other threads for you to discuss VAR Lite etc.
- is not pretending that fans in Scotland are completely united against VAR; it is talking to those who are already against it
- has an already extremely limited chance of success, made even slimmer if it descends into debating about VAR itself
- looks to take inspiration from examples such as the Swedish top flight as proof that we can have a VAR-less league in Scotland
What I would like to focus on in is the point raised in the quoted post above.
There are plenty of Scottish football fans - not least of all on here - talking the talk about VAR, but who is actually prepared to walk the walk?
Personally, the three or four ideas that V.G. proposed in that post are incredibly feasible and realistic suggestions:
- Write to your club and imply that you are a dissatisfied customer who wonders how much longer you can spend money on football with VAR
- Write to your club and - at a minimum - express your disappointment and ask when they will be holding consultations with fans about VAR
- Call up / text in radio programmes and discuss the issue of VAR on a public platform, get the issues fans have with VAR heard by a wider audience
- Write to newspapers and outline why fans are sick of VAR and what you would like to see happen next
Even if each anti-VAR poster on here committed to doing just one of these, it would have the potential to make the stakeholders of Scottish football at least sit up and take notice of supporters again.
So, to get a response to this, I've set up a poll detailing some (or all) of the actions anti-VAR people on here would be prepared to take to help lead a fightback against the idea that VAR is here to stay in Scotland.
Since being seen to care about things and trying to make your voice heard often gets sneered at in the UK, I've even made the poll anonymous. Lucky you.
Anyway, to stop this being too long an opening post, I'll end it here and add another post below where I get into answering the 'well that's all well and good, but what have you done, mate?' question that will inevitably be coming my way.
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10 minutes ago, Crùbag said:
That bloke’s a p***k and I’m glad he got a ban, if anything a year is lenient given what people can get handed for setting off a smokebomb.
When can we expect your condemnation of the entire Hearts end at Hampden en-masse singing “Oh the Hibees are gay” in 2006, 2012, as well as at multiple derbies at Tynecastle down the years?
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1 hour ago, Unleash The Nade said:
Fresh off the homophobic singing on Wednesday night, Hearts fans are out to prove that nobody in the LGBT+ community is safe from their bigotry.
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Turned the stream on just as the free kick got upgraded to a penalty and that was just about the greatest final five minutes of a football match I've ever seen.
Only thing missing was O'Hara double-touching the penalty kick on its way in.
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On the subject of missiles being thrown: if you’re the sort of person who enjoys wearing blackface and peddling anti-vaxxer rhetoric online, you should be thankful it’s only pies coming your way.
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6 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:
Why the f**k is Kent still on?
Because of the blood oath made by that Victorian dancing troupe. Lucifer himself insisted that, if you want to have this amount of luck in derbies (and still manage to barely ever win them with any kind of style ), human sacrifices will be necessary.
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If I made my club's shtick "eh well no we don't exactly win trophies but...but...we pure dominate the wee team haha!", I'd probably hope they turn out a decent derby performance once in a while. That was pitiful from Hearts and they know that Clancy has got them out of jail. Ah well, Dundee in our sights now.
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You just have to laugh.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the level of good play it takes from Hibs to score a derby goal compared to how Hearts get their goals from is just mind blowing.
If it was a casino Hibs fans would’ve walked out years ago.
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Huge levels of pretending it matters and has never happened before going on here.
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That’s one of the best goals I’ve seen in Scottish football in recent years btw. The turn before it was sublime.
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That shove from Johnston right there is a picture perfect example of why VAR is not The Great Leveller some of the rubes on here told us it would be.
If it’s down the other end with five minutes left and Celtic (or Rangers) look likely to drop points, that’s given as a penalty. And by the letter of the law, it probably is one.
Again, it’s not a stonewaller and Collum hasn’t made a howler there, but once you notice what the threshold is for getting a penalty against one of them versus the threshold for one of them getting a penalty against you, you can never watch Scottish football seriously again.
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On 01/10/2021 at 23:10, The Golden God said:
100 percent for it. Geniuenely baffles me why so many people aren't
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3 hours ago, KingswellsRed said:
We are only stuck with it if fans accept it. A coordinated effort and it would soon be gone.
1000% and it staggers me that nothing has happened with this yet.
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Ross County v Rangers
in Scottish Premiership General Chatter
Posted
Every single manager who arrives to manage either Rangers or Celtic starts out as a 'breath of fresh air' but the mask will inevitably slip before long. Something about having to play up to the hordes. Ange Postecoglou may have managed to pull the wool over some people's eyes, but he will always be a horrible c**t in my eyes.