HIT THE CHANNEL
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Emailed my club (Raith Rovers) today on behalf of our group of 7 ST holders.
Thanks to the OP and colleagues for the kick up the arse!
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15 minutes ago, Pie Of The Month said:
This argument is as disingenuous as the people pretending clubs install plastic pitches for the good of the community. It won't set any precedent and the top flight clubs haven't arbitrarily decided to just have a vote amongst themselves, the articles of association make it clear when a vote of all clubs is required and when it isn't. For example your claim about bans on TV gantries below a certain height would fall under a change to media facilities which is in Section I of the SPFL rules and regulations and therefore requires a resolution which would be voted on by all clubs. There's plenty of things a single division can vote on for changing for themselves and none of them would set any precedent, we saw that when the Championship clubs decided against using 5 subs when the other leagues adopted it during the COVID season.
FWIW the rules on artificial surfaces as things stand already differ from the Premiership to the other SPFL divisions and no one seemed to notice or care.
I can assure you I am not being disingenuous. Based on the comment from Artemis in the L1 thread (copied below) , the rules seem to hinge on the following point - "exclusively relates to or concerns a matter which is relevant to only one” division.
To my mind it is just false to say that a decision on what surface is permitted in the top flight relates solely to those who currently occupy that division.
Artemis:
Are they using this (very poorly drafted) provision from the Articles? I’ve only had a quick look but it appears that the Chairman of the SPFL Board is the sole arbiter of whether a matter “exclusively relates to or concerns a matter which is relevant to only one” division.
The reference to 61.2 is the provision that allows only Premiership clubs to vote on changes to the Premiership/Championship play-offs.61.1 Subject to Article 61.2, where an Ordinary Resolution before a General
Meeting, including a resolution proposing an amendment to a provision of the
Rules, is not a special resolution, Qualified Resolution or a Commercial
Resolution and it exclusively relates to or concerns a matter which is relevant
to only one or as the case may be, more specific Divisions, of which the
Chairman failing whom the chairman of the relevant meeting, shall be the sole
judge, not less than 75% of the Members owning and operating Clubs entitled
for the time being to participate in each of the relevant Division or as the case
may be, Divisions, whether all of the relevant Members of the Company
actually attend and vote or not, shall be required for the passing of the
resolution.0 -
Without trying to be the thread police, I think that the merits for and against artificial pitches are well rehearsed and folks have their (often immovable) views.
What I would stress to fans of teams who don't currently have an artificial pitch is to try and see the bigger picture: Premiership-only voting on issues which impact the entire SPFL should be resisted hard.
You can easily see how pitches one year becomes 'bans on open terracing with every punter, even if safe standing, needing a fixed seat in the top flight' (meaning enormous bills or down right exclusion due to it not being financially viable for clubs like Ayr, Morton, Arbroath, QoS, Montrose alloa etc. should they ever get promoted); or 'bans on TV gantries below X height in the top flight' etc etc. that just further pulls up the drawbridge. Not to mention that the principle of premiership voting could seep out beyond 'entry criteria'.
So even if you hate artificial pitches and don't buy the community arguments, fine. But from a self-interest perspective, all fans of clubs outside the big boys should be concerned about this and the precedent it could set.
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3 hours ago, Otis Blue said:
Agree with what you say - not that it will directly impact QOS for the forseable future! It just reinforces what we already know about the avarice of the Premiership clubs and how they try to control it through their one sided voting structure as an effectively "closed shop" with the twin objectives of keeping the minnows down in their place and ensuring that the "established clubs" continue relatively safely to maximise revenue either directly or indirectly from the over-entitled OF. The dangers of the Premiership and the implications of its voting structure were of course raised prior to its creation by the minnows but of course we were deemed irrelevant then and are even more so now.
NB - this could of course directly impact the Rovers this season, although I'm sure any such directive wouldn't be enforced so quickly as by next season.
Indeed. And this is the key point, I think. Even if you don't like Artifical pitches, unless you support one of the real big boys, Premiership-only voting on issues that impact all the way down the SPFL should be fought hard to stop it becoming the norm.
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1 hour ago, virginton said:
Ah yes, it's merely the community impact and poor wee scheme weans that are the subject of your concern. As opposed to Raith's 'speculate to accumulate' 'business model' going up in flames.
No other 4G pitch facility exists in Fife that could possibly take up the slack.
Fair enough. And of course any organisation (including charities) have to grow and be financially successful to be able to then do good work. So yes, of course there is a business element to it. But as mentioned above by @stevoraith there is a real drive to make the club a force for good in a town that needs all the help it can get.
And no other pitch could do the good work the same. No pitch outside the stadium could so easily connect parents/guardians bringing kids to play to the other events that happen in the club off the pitch (mens and women's fitness and mental health clubs, charity drives etc.). And no other pitch can create positive emotional connections to the football club the same way for kids off all backgrounds - connections that are genuinely needed in the country more than ever.
All that may not be important to you or others, but its important to me.
More than that though I am surprised that fans of most clubs (including you and your own) are not worried about the principle of premiership only voting. If it happens with this it can happen with other criteria (from open terraces [as opposed to 'safe standing seats'], to any other arbitrary criteria that is aimed at TV fans and self preservation - how big a press box you have, how high is your gantry etc. etc.).
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@stevoraith and @grumswall fully agree on the damage to the community. That’s my main concern. Do email the club to get this point across and try and get some momentum for a fair vote
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15 minutes ago, 101 said:
That's the problem though, many artificial pitches are down far far too long.
Queen of the south and Falkirk both had pitches down beyond their expected life span, well beyond in Queens case. Would imagine Raiths would be replaced this close season or next?
I think teams drag the arse out of it and that's the problem, also what do folk do with their old pitches would be good if they were donated to local uses that could use them but I suspect they end up in landfill.
That’s very fair. And potential where the sweet spot is (I.e for the Premiership you cannot have a pitch older than 5 years or the like).
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12 minutes ago, 101 said:
Would be quite funny if Raith won the league and then couldn't go up.
That isn't the worry (for what its worth our new board mentioned they are aware of potential changes coming and are planning - and based on the early stuff, you would fancy the board will get it right). The worry is we go up (sometime in the next 5 years) and doing so means we have to bring in grass that damages so much of the great work we are doing for the local community and town. It just seems a massive waste.
Not going to repeat the many excellent arguments for the merits of good artificial pitches in Scottish football here (see thread in Prem forum) to contest comments about them not being professional (but again, they are used in the Champions League group stages!). But for other championship clubs I honestly don't understand why any have grass parks considering the benefits having an artificial one can bring. But each to their own and all that.
Anyway, for those who are against artificial pitches, fair enough. Hopefully the OP is useful for even one or two, though.
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Hi folks, most will have likely seen the moves to have a Premiership-club-only vote on banning artificial surfaces in the Scottish Premiership (if you want to get up to speed, have a look at the 'artificial pitch vote' thread in the Premiership forum and this from the Record: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/premiership-clubs-vote-banning-plastic-32311245 ).
I imagine that for every club that has an artificial pitch, and many that don't but have a good chance of having one in future (likely ever club barring the top 5/6 teams in the country!), a ban of artificial pitches is viewed as highly damaging. But most importantly, the corrupt part of this seems to be having only 12 clubs vote on something which impacts the whole league system and the principles of merit-based competing/promotions etc. Drawing inspiration from the 'chasing VAR' thread and the idea to contact your clubs directly, I have created a template email for those who wish to raise this with their club to help prevent the ban/ensure a fair vote. I hope it is useful (and obviously edit as you see fit
).
I have sent this email to my club (Raith Rovers). I know some people will say 'emails do nothing' etc. But a) fans can make a difference by communicating with their club (see The Rangers being blocked from entry into Premiership/Championship) and b) smaller teams can use their votes to collectively out vote some of the big boys (see COVID voting). Regardless, I at least want to be able to say 'I tried' and not just be gutted about a change that I view as massively damaging for the wider game, my club and my town but not having done anything about it. I strongly urge every fan of every club impacted (now and by restricting future options) to contact their clubs. Cheers!
Email Template
Dear [name of CEO/supporter group/supporter liaison officer],
I'm writing to implore the club to strongly advocate (and make clear to us as fans how and when this is being undertaken):
- to oppose the proposed ban on artificial pitches in the Premiership that is being discussed.
- ensure that, as a matter that effects all SPFL clubs, any vote that does take place should i) entail all SPFL clubs being entitled to vote and ii) the rules regarding sufficient support in each division having to be met should be adhered to.
All 42 clubs voted on VAR. And all 42 clubs had to vote with regards to the outcomes of the COVID-forced ending of the leagues. It seems utterly unfair, bordering on a corrupt 'pulling up of the drawbridge', that only Premiership teams would vote on artificial pitches in the top flight. At the time of writing 20 clubs could still potentially be in the Premiership next season, and 32 can potentially be in the Premiership by the start of season 25/26 - having only 12 vote is preposterous.
Artificial surfaces are deemed good enough for the Champions League (see Bodø/Glimt). Grass pitches (see Dundee this very week) are notoriously unreliable in the Scottish climate. The argument that artificial pitches are bad for the game is just wrong.
[Optional: Our artificial surface has allowed our club to connect to [place] and its local population in a way that is unprecedented in our history, allowing [your team] to make major positive contributions the community. This is not something that [your club] or any other club who have (or may have in future) an artificial surface should be denied by virtue of playing in the top flight. The ability for our club to be a hub of the community and make a major contribution to the physical and mental wellbeing of people of all ages in the local community is what makes me truly proud to be a [your team] fan. It is simply not possible to do this without our artificial pitch and having to change this should we ever be promoted would be a massive disappointment and ultimately a long term own goal for the health and success of the club. End of optional]
Many thanks for your time. I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely,
HIT THE CHANNEL
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Hi folks, most will have likely seen the moves to have a Premiership-club-only vote on banning artificial surfaces in the Scottish Premiership (if you want to get up to speed, have a look at the 'artificial pitch vote' thread in the Premiership forum and this from the Record: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/premiership-clubs-vote-banning-plastic-32311245 ).
I imagine that for every club that has an artificial pitch, and many that don't but have a good chance of having one in future (likely ever club barring the top 5/6 teams in the country!), a ban of artificial pitches is viewed as highly damaging. But most importantly, the corrupt part of this seems to be having only 12 clubs vote on something which impacts the whole league system and the principles of merit-based competing/promotions etc. Drawing inspiration from the 'chasing VAR' thread and the idea to contact your clubs directly, I have created a template email for those who wish to raise this with their club to help prevent the ban/ensure a fair vote. I hope it is useful (and obviously edit as you see fit
).
I have sent this email to my club (Raith Rovers). I know some people will say 'emails do nothing' etc. But a) fans can make a difference by communicating with their club (see The Rangers being blocked from entry into Premiership/Championship) and b) smaller teams can use their votes to collectively out vote some of the big boys (see COVID voting). Regardless, I at least want to be able to say 'I tried' and not just be gutted about a change that I view as massively damaging for the wider game, my club and my town but not having done anything about it. I strongly urge every fan of every club impacted (now and by restricting future options) to contact their clubs. Cheers!
Email Template
Dear [name of CEO/supporter group/supporter liaison officer],
I'm writing to implore the club to strongly advocate (and make clear to us as fans how and when this is being undertaken):
- to oppose the proposed ban on artificial pitches in the Premiership that is being discussed.
- ensure that, as a matter that effects all SPFL clubs, any vote that does take place should i) entail all SPFL clubs being entitled to vote and ii) the rules regarding sufficient support in each division having to be met should be adhered to.
All 42 clubs voted on VAR. And all 42 clubs had to vote with regards to the outcomes of the COVID-forced ending of the leagues. It seems utterly unfair, bordering on a corrupt 'pulling up of the drawbridge', that only Premiership teams would vote on artificial pitches in the top flight. At the time of writing 20 clubs could still potentially be in the Premiership next season, and 32 can potentially be in the Premiership by the start of season 25/26 - having only 12 vote is preposterous.
Artificial surfaces are deemed good enough for the Champions League (see Bodø/Glimt). Grass pitches (see Dundee this very week) are notoriously unreliable in the Scottish climate. The argument that artificial pitches are bad for the game is just wrong.
[Optional: Our artificial surface has allowed our club to connect to [place] and its local population in a way that is unprecedented in our history, allowing [your team] to make major positive contributions the community. This is not something that [your club] or any other club who have (or may have in future) an artificial surface should be denied by virtue of playing in the top flight. The ability for our club to be a hub of the community and make a major contribution to the physical and mental wellbeing of people of all ages in the local community is what makes me truly proud to be a [your team] fan. It is simply not possible to do this without our artificial pitch and having to change this should we ever be promoted would be a massive disappointment and ultimately a long term own goal for the health and success of the club. End of optional]
Many thanks for your time. I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely,
HIT THE CHANNEL
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Hi folks, most will have likely seen the moves to have a Premiership-club-only vote on banning artificial surfaces in the Scottish Premiership (if you want to get up to speed, have a look at the 'artificial pitch vote' thread in the Premiership forum and this from the Record: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/premiership-clubs-vote-banning-plastic-32311245 ).
I imagine that for every club that has an artificial pitch, and many that don't but have a good chance of having one in future (likely ever club barring the top 5/6 teams in the country!), a ban of artificial pitches is viewed as highly damaging. But most importantly, the corrupt part of this seems to be having only 12 clubs vote on something which impacts the whole league system and the principles of merit-based competing/promotions etc. Drawing inspiration from the 'chasing VAR' thread and the idea to contact your clubs directly, I have created a template email for those who wish to raise this with their club to help prevent the ban/ensure a fair vote. I hope it is useful (and obviously edit as you see fit
).
I have sent this email to my club (Raith Rovers). I know some people will say 'emails do nothing' etc. But a) fans can make a difference by communicating with their club (see The Rangers being blocked from entry into Premiership/Championship) and b) smaller teams can use their votes to collectively out vote some of the big boys (see COVID voting). Regardless, I at least want to be able to say 'I tried' and not just be gutted about a change that I view as massively damaging for the wider game, my club and my town but not having done anything about it. I strongly urge every fan of every club impacted (now and by restricting future options) to contact their clubs. Cheers!
Email Template
Dear [name of CEO/supporter group/supporter liaison officer],
I'm writing to implore the club to strongly advocate (and make clear to us as fans how and when this is being undertaken):
- to oppose the proposed ban on artificial pitches in the Premiership that is being discussed.
- ensure that, as a matter that effects all SPFL clubs, any vote that does take place should i) entail all SPFL clubs being entitled to vote and ii) the rules regarding sufficient support in each division having to be met should be adhered to.
All 42 clubs voted on VAR. And all 42 clubs had to vote with regards to the outcomes of the COVID-forced ending of the leagues. It seems utterly unfair, bordering on a corrupt 'pulling up of the drawbridge', that only Premiership teams would vote on artificial pitches in the top flight. At the time of writing 20 clubs could still potentially be in the Premiership next season, and 32 can potentially be in the Premiership by the start of season 25/26 - having only 12 vote is preposterous.
Artificial surfaces are deemed good enough for the Champions League (see Bodø/Glimt). Grass pitches (see Dundee this very week) are notoriously unreliable in the Scottish climate. The argument that artificial pitches are bad for the game is just wrong.
[Optional: Our artificial surface has allowed our club to connect to [place] and its local population in a way that is unprecedented in our history, allowing [your team] to make major positive contributions the community. This is not something that [your club] or any other club who have (or may have in future) an artificial surface should be denied by virtue of playing in the top flight. The ability for our club to be a hub of the community and make a major contribution to the physical and mental wellbeing of people of all ages in the local community is what makes me truly proud to be a [your team] fan. It is simply not possible to do this without our artificial pitch and having to change this should we ever be promoted would be a massive disappointment and ultimately a long term own goal for the health and success of the club. End of optional]
Many thanks for your time. I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely,
HIT THE CHANNEL
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Coming in to here from the 'get VAR to f**k' thread and it got me thinking that a similar 'email your club' campaign might be useful (and that having a template like that produced by @velo army in the other thread) is a cracking idea. In the hope it helps, here is a draft:
Dear [name of CEO/supporter group/supporter liaison officer]
I'm writing to implore the club to strongly advocate (and make clear to us as fans how and when this is being undertaken):
a) to oppose the proposed ban on artificial pitches in the Premiership that is being discussed
b) ensure that, as a matter that effects all SPFL clubs, any vote that does take place should i) entail all SPFL clubs being entitled to vote and ii) the rules regarding sufficient support in each division having to be met should be adhered to.
All 42 clubs voted on VAR. And all 42 clubs had to vote with regards to the outcomes of the COVID-forced ending of the leagues. It seems utterly unfair, bordering on a corrupt 'pulling up of the drawbridge', that only Premiership teams would vote on artificial pitches in the top flight. At the time of writing 20 clubs could still potentially be in the Premiership next season, and 32 can potentially be in the Premiership by the start of season 25/26 - having only 12 vote is preposterous.
Artificial surfaces are deemed good enough for the Champions League (see Bodø/Glimt). Grass pitches (see Dundee this very week) are notoriously unreliable in the Scottish climate. The argument that artificial pitches are bad for the game is just wrong.
[Optional: Our artificial surface has allowed our club to connect to [place] and its local population in a way that is unprecedented in our history, allowing [your team] to make major positive contributions the community. This is not something that [your club] or any other club who have (or may have in future) an artificial surface should be denied by virtue of playing in the top flight. The ability for our club to be a hub of the community and make a major contribution to the physical and mental wellbeing of people of all ages in the local community is what makes me truly proud to be a [your team] fan. It is simply not possible to do this without our artificial pitch and having to change this should we ever be promoted would be a massive disappointment and ultimately a long term own goal for the health and success of the club. End of optional]
Many thanks for your time. I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely,
HIT THE CHANNEL
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2 hours ago, velo army said:
I don't want to impugn the effort of @Davis Love III as it's a well written piece, but I think what is needed is something which gets to the point quickly. We're trying to get the attention of busy people who don't want to listen to us. We need emotive and brief. What we want is to let our clubs know that we want VAR in the bin. I like that Davis Love III mentions that the reasons given for VAR was the financial cost of wrong decisions, because this is fallacious pish and can be a good point on which to pivot to the decrease of matchday revenue which is of greater importance to our clubs than it is to EPL clubs.
Like @HibsFan in his original post I'd love us to get our heads together and come up with a potent message, so it isn't my intention to rubbish what has been posted above, but to use it as a starting point, take what was good and hone it down a bit.
Dear ______
I'm writing to implore the club to change its stance on VAR and to respect the views of fans that it has become deleterious to the match-going experience.
The promised increased accuracy hasn't materialised and, even if it had, we as fans are now unable to celebrate goals in real time. This spontaneous celebration of goals in real time is the very reason we go to games. This has been sacrificed on the altar of perfectionism and supposed accuracy.
It might be argued that this doesn't affect teams such as ours (in the case of PTFC) as we don't have VAR in our leagues, but it has affected the way games are officiated at this level. The fact that more top level referees are required to arbitrate in the Premiership means that there are fewer referees of sufficient competence available to the lower leagues. I've also seen referees delay decisions in the Championship as if VAR were in place. The lack of confidence has trickled down.
We supporters don't care if our referees are allowed to officiate in UEFA competitions, and the ambitions of Scottish referees shouldn't take precedence over the enjoyment of supporters who are the financial lifeblood of our club.
That Morton were the only club to come out against VAR is shameful. You didn't ask the supporters what they wanted and took a decision that directly affects our experience of the game. We won't allow this to happen again.
Yours.
Velo Army.
This is just my hat into the ring. I'd like to hear feedback or see other posters' suggested efforts.
I'm wondering @Ad Lib if TJF could adopt a stance on this and put a survey out so that we have actual numbers.
This is a really good draft and one I will heavily borrow from to send an email to Raith Rovers this week (thanks mate!). Our board has been good at properly engaging with the fans so I would hope they will engage productively.
I think the key 'aim' has to be to get each club to consult the match day going fans (ST holders and those who are in the system as attending a match this year) and hold a binding vote on whether the club should change policy on VAR.
EDIT TO ADD: in the hope that some of this activism is transferable, I have also created a draft for fans to us to encourage their clubs to a) oppose the ban on artificial pitches in the top flight and b) ensure that it is fair vote of all 42 clubs. It is in the 'artificial pitch' thread.
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28 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:
Surely the controversy is reportedly only Premiership voting?
Has there been a justification/has it been confirmed that it’s Premiership only voting? As the SPFL is one body that seems bizarre - as it impacts all 42 clubs!
It presently impacts 21 as I think 9 clubs in the championship can still get promoted this year!
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3 hours ago, TheScarf said:
It's likely to be approved on appeal to the SG, but f**k me, I'm sick to fucking death about hearing about this cunting battery farm.
Edit - Scot Gardiner is a bald, *** b*****d too. It's good to remind everyone every so often.
What makes it’s likely to be approved on appeal mate? Honest question coming from sheer ignorance of all matters local council planning!
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Both dreadful, home top especially. Like a training kit.
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Aye ‘realistic’ is the word. It’s not a must win technically. But I think it is in reality.
A win for us puts huge pressure on Yinited to win at EEP on Friday, otherwise we will have the chance to go back top with a win at QP.
All that is irrelevant though if we don’t win tonight. Come on min!!
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54 minutes ago, third lanark said:
It is in the Colin Weir stand/old stand at the front mate. I’m amazed that you have been put in the Jackie Husband - I know it’s a midweek game but it’s a huge game for both clubs and would expect Raith to have a large travel support so would have expected you to get the whole Colin weir stand to yourselves.
I see we have two 'blocks' - what do they hold? This link https://ptfc.co.uk/season-tickets/stadium-plan/ suggests that supports of more than 500 are hosted in the Colin Weir. I know its a Tuesday night but I would expect we would get close to 500 (or exceed it).
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38 minutes ago, mrpaddyx said:
According to the Partick website we are in the Jackie Husband stand , which is significantly better than being in the old wooden stand.
That’s genuinely excellent news. Assume in the corner where we were for the challenge cup semi right before lock down?
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33 minutes ago, The Toun Clock said:
There was a game two years ago where you didn’t even fill the North East stand at East End
I may be wrong but that section sold out (and we didn’t get offered more tickets due to covid changing in the stand).
My point still holds though. If we had 1000 at that game (our lowest attendance at EEP) it was then 3/5 of our averages home gate at that time (which is pish and tells a story of where we were). Raw numbers don’t tell a story. Percentages of home gates that travel tell a story of how the fans are feeling for ‘big games’. I just thought that was a pish poor pars crowd for their home gate.
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Google telling me Munn’s is back open? Or is that bullshit - was shut last year when we turned up and just managed to squeek in to the Woodside instead.
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On the nonsense on links street. It’s fucking ridiculous. But it’s easy fixed if the police just filter the pars fans up by the abbey - which is the fastest route to the away end anyway. The boys walking along links street are clearly looking for both r and getting it. Hopefully no innocents hurt this time.
Dunfermline the ‘better side’ for a decent chunk in the first half but just look so toothless. Goals came at good time for us but as DAFC mentions above the big moment was big Kev’s save. Massive, massive save that I think no other goalie in the league keeps out.
I know the pars are doing shite, but a poor away support today for the big team ( 1600?). Don’t think the rovers ever took as small a percentage of our regular home gate to a derby over the last 15 years or so. Surely an indictment of McPake that.
Anyway, great feeling having the 4/4 and 5 derby wins in a row. Enjoy your nights Rovers ladies and gents
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What a joke of a decision
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43 minutes ago, Wardy said:
Vaughan’s touch from Rudden’s cross field is sublime, and the finish? Filth.
Aye that’s a proper elite level touch and finish. Unreal from LV10
1
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Potential ban on artificial pitches in the Premiership - No to just 12 clubs voting
in Scottish Championship General Chatter
Posted
https://falkirksupporters.org/2024/03/20/artificial-pitches-vote/